[What would you like for AoS 3]

3 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

The most important determinant of victory in AoS is the list you run. A tourney list won't be beaten by a casual list. There's a reason you see the same lists in tournaments over and over. 

When the players are roughly equally skilled that is true, but not when they are unequally skilled.

[What would you like for AoS 3]

Definitely do NOT want them to remove the double turn. That would turn AoS into a fairly elementary game like 40k where the most important determinant of outcome is the list you run. 
 

rather I would suggest that the real problem with  the double turn is shooting. 

 

best way to fix shooting is to simply have one shooting phase at the beginning of each battle round. Starting with the player going second (like endless spells), players would alternate firing with each Shooting unit on the table until  they’ve all fired. This way the shooting abilities of units would never be influenced by the double turn in either way. Every unit would still fire once per round. Furthermore you have to actually be tactical with shooting units and plan to position them during the previous turn so that they will be able to take their shots in the next shooting phase. 
 

 

[King Hardouin the Servant]

I would try sort of pin-washing the glaze directly into the recesses

[King Hardouin the Servant]

Quite striking! I would consider a glaze of a contrasting cooler brighter color on the reds, like nihilakoxide and lahmian medium that will sink into the crevices. And sort of reverse-highlight them.

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

Trying to get a very balanced OBR list that feels like what I imagine the composition of the legions is, built around the shield corps and the death lance. It’s a four drop list and I intend for it to be semi competitive:

 

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Legion: Petrifex Elite
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Liege-Kavalos (200)
- General
- Command Trait: Mighty Archaeossian  
- Artefact: Godbone Armour  
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- Artefact:  Artisan’s Key 
- Lore of Mortisans: Arcane Command
Mortisan Soulmason (140)
- Artefact: Gothizzar Cartouche  
- Lore of Mortisans: Empower Nadirite Weapons

Battleline
40 x Mortek Guard (440)
- Nadirite Spear and Shield
10 x Mortek Guard (130)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
10 x Mortek Guard (130)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Artillery
Mortek Crawler (200)

Battalions
Mortek Shield-corps (120)
Kavalos Lance (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bone-tithe Shrieker (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120
 

what do you guys think? Is two expensive battalions a waste of points that would be better spent on more BoneReapers? Or is it worth it for the powerful artifacts, low drops, and copious rdp? 

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

55 minutes ago, Austin said:

 

Shooting blobs having a lot of strength is not new in AoS- can go back and look at the Savage Orcs combo a few years ago and see the same thing.  The double turn, in my opinion, is more at fault here than the strength of any one unit.

Also, this whole theorycrafting in a void is almost pointless, I say almost because you can sometimes identify a way around the issue (as apparently you already have).  Archers are sort of high risk high reward (except my IDK Reavers who are just sort of...there haha).  If you can't get off a charge or stop them shooting, you will hurt. 

I don't find LRL that crazy in terms of power, and their strengths (for now) being in shooting seems story based which is cool.

You could be right. I suppose I’ll have to play against it a few times to see how it goes. I think I, myself, can (narrowly) stay in the fight with OBR  by building (and painting!) a list specifically toward that end. I think the whole destruction grand alliance will have a very hard time. 24 mortal wounds starting at 30 inches away with no line of sight is not just another cheesy shooting list. I just worry It has potential to become kind of a gatekeeper list, like Tzeentch was is that ugly chapter a couple years ago. On the other hand it’s a pretty static gun line with screens and it won’t do great at some scenarios. So I guess we’ll see. If definitely seen some horror show bat reps online against this list. Not such a great showcase for AOS.  But with so few games being played you might be right.

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

17 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Sentinels are very dependant on casting their own spell in order to do the damage. If that fails or is unbound their damage output is abyssmal really..

The snake archers of Daughters of Khaine have the same damage output and do not need a spell (or two if you also want lambent light) to perform, plus with a command point Morathi can double their damage by making them shoot in the hero phase too..

Sentinels are good but they can be muted easily with good unbinds and are very squishy if the get shot first..

I’m afraid if the only way to counter the unit is by shooting it, or getting lucky with an unbind, then lots of armies will essentially auto-lose to this build. Realistically the only ways I see to counter it are good shooting (Double Mortek crawler for me), or somehow outflanking and getting a long bomb charge into them before they start firing. 

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

3 hours ago, Tiger said:

Seems ranged units are the concerned factor. I don't find archers to be problematic, however, I also don't generally min - max my compositions. The mounted archers might be more mild in comparison to the damage output of the foot archers, trading the number of shoots (for the number of bodies) for mobility and something extra. I hope we're not going to see teleporting battle line 'roos with archers backing them as the cost-effective winner of the expansion.

It’s not so much the relative strength of the unit, so much as it is that there is no way to prevent the damage or interact with it really in any way. Each unit of 20 will average 11-12 MW at 30 inches, or 48 MW on a double turn for total output from both units.  There is no way to stop it from happening if you happen to be in range. Might as well pack the models away unless you have an army that can get into the archers by the bottom Of turn 1. I don’t think this mess will go for long before getting fixed. It’s pretty egregious. 

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

Tzeentch and Kharadron are bad on the double Turn too, but at least you can get an armor save and debuff the firing unit, or just out range them. Sentinels are hard to counter if you can’t get to them in one turn. Maybe third edition will make some fundamental changes to the shooting phase and these will only feel like negative play experiences until then.

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

Unless there is an obvious weakness I’m missing...Is there?

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

3 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

How does that work? They do 3 or 6 Morals without buffs

All you need is for somebody to cast the reroll hits spell (or, marker lights as I call it), followed by hitting a casting roll of six with the option to buff it with allegiance  abilities and aetherquartz. Worse still, the marker lights spell marks the target for ALL of your shooting units and has an 18 inch range. You can give it to you Calvary units, use a bonus to cast, and the annihilate anything from Archaeon to skink priests. Look out sir does nothing. Concealing terrain does nothing. Debuffs to hit do nothing. Your units are removed more or less automatically on a double turn with no interaction.

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

Does anyone feel that perhaps the mortal-wound potential In this army is a bit too high? With all this talk of a potential new army book I think one might actually be necessary before people start actually playing games again.

 

A simple combination of spells has units of 20 archers pumping out over ten mortal wounds at 30 inches away. We used to complain about the famed “Dirty Snowball” on the Thundertusk for its 6 mortal wound potential at 18 inches. (Which was eventually merged) This unit is easily doing 12 mortal wounds at 18 inches with no line of sight (and 6 or

7 at 30 inches!). It’s almost comical. Two units of 20 ensure that a game is effectively pointless if lumineth get a single double turn and ALL enemy heroes, mounted or otherwise, will be dead by the start of round 3 with no way to prevent it. Look out Sir and shooting debuffs do nothing to delay their inevitable deaths because the mortals happen on an unmodified 5+. (So even shots that “miss” will still do mortal wounds if you manage tons of penalties to hit as a defense)
 

and it seems they are preparing to add MORE shooting units! Lol  
 

this seems either like a total hot-mess of an army book, OR there are major changes to shooting in Third Edition...  which is it I wonder.

[Chaos Dwarfs in AoS?]

Pretty sure the climax of Wrath of the Everchosen takes place near a sprawling factory city in the eight points with a Chaos Dwarf sounding name. 

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

On 1/19/2021 at 5:32 PM, Sharklone said:

Lads. About to enter into a league that goes for 3 month (ish).

Tossing up between 3 Similar lists.

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Legion: Mortis Praetorians

 

Leaders
Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis (500)
- General
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (360)

Battleline
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Artillery
Mortek Crawler (200)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Nightmare Predator (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113

 

List 2 is the same, except swap out a unit of deathriders for Necropolis Stalkers.

List 3 Swaps out a unit of death riders for Arch Kavalos Zandtos, and the nightmare predator for a soulstealer Carrion

 

Admittedly I’m new to OBR and haven’t had much chance to play with the pandemic and all, but it seems pretty light on units for 2000 points. Are you dead set on having both Arkhan and Katakros in there? Seems like a whole mess of points in two models -one barely mobile and the other very fragile. If somebody steals a March on you and charges arkhan with his defenses down, or If you face a shooting army, you might lose him quick. Then again, I suppose Arkhan and Katakros can heal each other, so that’s a cool feature.

[Gamesworkshop's Evolving Release Strategy]

I suspect those lumineth models might be from the 3rd edition starter box. 

[Missing in Action: Which Units Exist in Lore but Need Models?]

I feel like I remember Sylvaneth Beetle riders being mentioned in one of the timeline sections somewhere. 
 

and on the subject of Sylvaneth, I expect there are a bunch of kurnothi units out there based on other sylvan mythological archetypes (pixies, centaurs, Fauns, etc like the underworlds models), and presumably a Big Kurnoth model as well. 

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

19 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

This is very much on-topic : ). 

Currently, there is no downside to being in mountain stance. Common interpretation is that probably initially there was some kind of downside to it that had been scrapped without updating the text. But we don't know. 

You are correct, right now it makes no sense that you have to declare it every time. Just let you opponent know at the start of the game that you are always in the mountain stance and you should be fine. 

 

17 hours ago, Dreadmund said:

As LuminethMage says, there is no downside. I suspect they meant for you to only use one stance at a time, so you would have to choose between Mountain Stance and the Stonemage Stance for example. But there is no rule saying you need to choose one or the other, and it wasn't clarified in the post battletome FAQ. There also just aren't that many stances, so it might be something they had originally intended to be a bigger thing or something that might become more relevant when the new heroes come out.

Ah I see. Since there is some parallel between Elementari and martial arts forms, (or aspect warriors for that matter) we can imagine the final form of the lumineth allegiance will have a set of forms, some general and some specific to certain elements, and each Elementiri unit can be set to an available form at the start of the turn. “This unit is in Illumination form, and this unit is in Zephyr form...” and so on and so forth, with the wizards will be able to help them switch forms mid term and stuff. That seems like a very likely reason for the peculiar wording.  

[Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion]

Hey folks, sorry if this is off-topic, but can anyone explain the Alarith “Enduring as Rock,” battle trait to me? It seems like an ability you just leave active for the entire game with no downside, so why would anyone bother declaring it? Or do you simply declare it each hero phase? Was there supposed to be a downside to this ability? Is this a typo? What is the consensus? It seems like there is a critical sentence missing here.

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

2 hours ago, umpac said:

Shield wall doesn't have a range requirement. You keep them within 6" early to enable Advance and CS, then break up "formation" if you get a good charge to get proper frontage.

Oh wow idk how I never noticed that. Yeah I use tightly packed tesselating 5 man movement trays that I 3-d printed. They usually end up charging or piling in off of them by turn 2 or 3 but help with movement in 1 and 2. It lets you move 5 at once and keep your lines orderly till the battle starts in earnest. I do the same for sixty man zombie units. 

   

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

16 hours ago, umpac said:

Attack or +hit buffs doesn't matter, the math stays the same. They both get the same damage increase from +1 A, +1 to hit or both. In the end the difference is usually pretty minor but there are situations where spears severely underperform.

I guess what I’m saying is that more models in engagement that can attack (eg spears), the more efficient the +1 attack ability is. With, say, 20 models in attack range it nets you an additional 20 attacks, with 30 models in range it nets you an additional 30 attacks, for a 50% increase in bonus attacks. 
 

All that said, assuming a 4+ armor save as a rough average (and discounting the hit and wound rolls, which are symmetrical for both weapons anyway), we get 90 attacks out of the spears discounting half of that damage for 45 (again discounting the hit and wound rolls),  or 60 attacks from the swords after +1 attack with Rend -1 for 40 potential damage on average against our 4+ enemy. 
 

granted this is a very artificial set of parameters, and certainly any buff to the 4+ save (even re-rolling 1’s) will swing it back to the swords. Against 5+ or worse, the spears should perform better with 60 versus 50 for the swords etc etc, and a more predictable damage output because of volume of dice (but less of a chance of a stroke of good luck as well).  of course the petrifex ability starts to take the swords into insane territory, but that’s another discussion.

 

what do you use for movement trays for your 40 man block? Do you find the 40 block is competitive or do you just do it for rule

of cool?

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

11 hours ago, umpac said:

I didn't model any of my morteks with spears so I haven't tried them but its pretty easy to math out. Basically spears will outperform blades slightly vs 4+ save, assuming you get the same amount of models into combat with spears just getting 1 extra rank (i.e. 20 swords vs 30 spears or 24 vs 36) until you can get 30 swords into combat at which point they start to outperform the spears. The swords quickly get better as you take casualties.

Seems like a good analysis when it comes to two ten-wide units hitting each other head on. I suppose the other consideration is the attack buffing command ability and the fact that when it comes to a large round base (like a monster, that third ‘rank’ will have more more models attacking than than the first rank, (although in regressing down to a simple third rank the larger the radius of the unit surrounded is) so the Spears have a bit more efficiency of buffing (with that third rank adding an additional 30 attacks after the command ability), and a greater efficiency against large base units and elite non-horde units that can be easily surrounded in a semi-circular fashion. Perhaps not worth the loss of rend -1. 
 

have you ever ran 40 man blocks? Seems tough to keep them all within six of the hekatos without movement trays.

[The weird state of AoS Forgeworld]

4 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

I think they have been grown to be a very profitable and dominant company in the market. It is a pity that, in some cases, the interests of the consumers are not well aligned with those of GW. When they are, I cheer for them. Certainly pricing and other marketing strategies they have are not in our best interest.

In any case, here stands the dwarf (not duardin), grumbling over prices and the fact that Bugmansson's is worse than good old Bugman's.

Haha well this sort of grumble is an honored tradition as old as the hobby itself! In any event I’m off to work. Have a nice one brother and merry Christmas in advance! Stay safe out there.

[The weird state of AoS Forgeworld]

58 minutes ago, Overread said:

I should note GW didn't just pay staff full wage during the first lockdown; they paid off their entire Government furlough money during the gap between lockdowns. . 

And they paid their entire US staff through the lockdowns with no US federal government policy of any kind on the offer to defray those costs, nor any tax incentives to continue employing their entire staff to stay home with full benefits for the employees and their families.  
 

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

@Greybeard86 probably just worth pointing out here that GW's public margins aren't anything to do with the margin/markup on models - they're the companies profit margins (which is the difference between revenue from sales exceeds business costs).  The actual markup/margin GW make on a miniature kit is a pretty closely guarded secret.

 

Precisely what I was trying to explain to this fellow. The relentlessly profitable history of Games Workshop has mostly to do with excellent cash flow, a firm belief in avoiding corporate debt, a lack of advertising expenditure (marketing done entirely in house and by the web team), and an extremely lean and cheap management structure overseeing a large sales operation with a bare minimum of oversight.

 

5 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

That glowing review of GW made me curious about working conditions there:

https://www.careerbliss.com/games-workshop/salaries/

https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Games-Workshop/salaries?job_category=sales

Pay does not seem to be stellar or above average, I do not know about the benefits (I suppose this will matter more in the US). Your very positive outlook, may I ask where it comes from?

GW is overly comfortable at the moment. Nice exchange, by the way! I also want to thank the mods for allowing it.

 

Indeed! Well I suppose we are behaving like ordinary gentlemen and not hurling profanities at each other, so good for us! Haha

I am a previous employee of GW, with a fairly detailed knowledge of the company’s operations, the parameters of its business model, and it’s philosophy towards its employees. It was, along with the US Marine Corps, one of the leanest, most rational, and best run organizations I’ve had experience with. I have taken a great deal of GW’s best practices and philosophy  into management of my own businesses.

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

How much luck have you all had with running a max-sized brick of Mortek Guard with Spears? I built it because it looks impressive and thematic, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience running it and could offer any advice.

[The weird state of AoS Forgeworld]

I can understand that, but it’s also worth mentioning that excesses of annual profit are not reinvested or rendered as massive bonuses to the company’s officers, but rather are given back to the employees of the company in a totally even split (something unthinkable to an American publicly traded company). Additionally, the company takes steps to keep the lion’s share of its manufacturing in the UK and pays its employees a living wage with excellent benefits. I understand that doesn’t necessarily effect you as a consumer, but certainly if the company were intensely fixated on profit margins and made all their decisions from that position,  then working for the company would be much more akin to working for GameStop or Bestbuy or whatever (miserable and without benefits to speak of), and they would cut quality and manufacture overseas where labor laws are weak and the pound goes further.  
 

competition is a good thing, but IP theft is something else entirely. A pet peeve of mine, frankly. I find it’s effect on the hobby objectionable. The silly naming conventions of Warhammer for example, or the overly baroque models, - and in this particular case the disappearance of large models from Forge World- are common objections to the current line, and they all have their genesis in defense against IP theft. It feels like the need to avoid this cost of doing business impacts the design and direction of the hobby, and constrains the artists. I find this frustrating. The cost of the models impacts me less, personally, but I understand this is a major concern for many.

I suppose there is not really any hint to be done about recasters, but I always feel a need to point out how recasting ultimately negatively impacts the hobby as a whole.

 

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