dark elf assassin

[fued]

when he activates does he count as your activation for combat? or do you get his activation then his units before the enemies if you charge?

 

[Sarkazim]

4 hours ago, Nico said:

1. Deploy all the assassins.
2. Pile in and attack with all the assassins in an order of your choice.

There is nothing to support this.  Once you choose to use 'Hidden Murderer', you follow the steps.  You're using the 'Then they pile in and attack' as another trigger to deploy any other Assassins.  The only acceptable order is to resolve each 'Hidden Murderer' in it's entirety, before moving on to the next one.  I had a look at the Fanatics that you referenced earlier and it's structured the same.  You deploy all the Fanatics from the Warscroll that are using the rule, then you charge with them.  If there was a second Warscroll of Fanatics in the army, then they would execute the ability in exactly the same manner.  

Your solution unnecessarily complicates the game if both sides have Assassins.  As it would require both players to reveal their Assassins before resolving any pile/attacks.  When it's easier to follow the guideline, and the current player chooses if he wants to activate first, and just resolve it before giving his opponent the opportunity to.

 

5 hours ago, Nico said:

1. Player whose turn it is makes their first selection to activate a unit.

As above, no issue with the first issue.  Which is that the Assassin player may still select a unit to attack with if it's his turn.  (ie. the Assassin doesn't count as his first pick).  You're still picking and choosing which parts of the rule that you want to apply to the normal rules while ignoring others.  It's a contradiction to say that he doesn't count as the selection for the turn, and still claim he has attacked for the turn.
 

5 hours ago, Nico said:

1. No additional attacks from the assassins later in the combat phase.

We're arriving at our conclusions using the same argument.  

The normal order of the combat phase is that both players will alternate picking units to attack with, starting with the player who's current turn it is.  All units are eligible to be chosen until they have attacked once.  Back to the pick n choose of how you apply the rule, you're preventing the Assassin from being eligible because he has rolled his dice.  Even though he was never selected to attack per normal.

Now, I can't argue with there not being an explicit statement that would allow them to attack in the normal order after 'Hidden Assassin' has been resolved.  The reason the argument is the stronger of the two, is because the rules don't appear to be written from a 'permissive' view point like 40k.  Everything that I have seen, (from what I have looked at), has been an explicit exception to the normal order of things.  The lack of any explicit wording to remove them from being selected when the normal order of play resumes is WHY they get to attack.

This fits better with current game mechanics.  Unit's can re-roll 1's when attacking, this is an exception to the normal rules.  Unit's can generate additional attacks, this is an exception to the normal rules.  Fanatics are placed as instructed during the start of the charge phase, but then get to charge, which again is an exception to the normal rules.  

To further support this, lets look at units that don't have an exception where the normal rules apply to them.  A Wizard summons another Warscroll that also counts as a Wizard.  The summoned Wizard gets to cast, and doesn't need an exception to be able to do so because the normal rules apply.  The same order is applied to the Assassin.  He activates 'Hidden Murderer' and follows the steps.  Without and exception, the normal rules still apply to him, just like the Wizard does.  

To Recap.  The Assassin hasn't attacked.  He has used his ability, just like EVERY OTHER WARSCROLL.  Without an exception, they remain eligible to attack during the combat phase.  To approach it looking for permission, is to treat the Assassin differently from every other Warscroll in the game, at least that I've found.  If it's easier to grasp, then this is the resolution.  The Assassin uses his ability 'Hidden Murderer' which allows him make his attacks, and during the remainder of the combat phase he can still make his normal attacks.  

 

[Nico]

Good point Sennyo - without express wording to override the cap on attacking more than once, you remain subject to it.

So to recap

1. Deploy all the assassins.
2. Pile in and attack with all the assassins in an order of your choice.
3. Player whose turn it is makes their first selection to activate a unit.
4. No additional attacks from the assassins later in the combat phase.

[Sennyo]

I think the answer to the 'does he get to attack after his hidden murder' question is no as the main rule under combat phase clearly stats that no unit can attack more that once per combat phase. obviously there are exceptions to this rule in warscrolls that as they can attack more than once. the assassin is not one of them

[Nico]

Quote

While it's counter-intuitive to think that a model that rolls it's attack dice can still get to attack in the normal order of things, the alternative implication is worse.  By stating that the Assassin has made his attacks for the turn, doesn't count as being selected, but can't be selected when the normal order is restored, you're picking and choosing which rules to apply and when to apply them.  

I tend to go for the less overpowered interpretation or at least the middle ground - I've adoped the middle ground here. In my mind, the rule is about the timing of the attacks rather than attacking twice - that's context for how you would interpret it. Given how significant attacking twice in one phase would be, I think you need more than implication to rule it that way.  I admit that it could be interpreted in the way you suggest - I just wouldn't go that far - each attacking twice - in a tournament.

Quote

As for the other things.  No one other than you has said that I have to reveal all of the Assassins, and then resolve their pile/attacks in an order of my choosing.  There is no cause to interrupt one Assassin to reveal another Assassin before finishing the first.  As above, even using 2 Assassins for 12 attacks anyways, they still couldn't kill a hero (though they did get them to 1-2 wounds left). 

This comes down to the internal timing of the rules, it says deploy the model, then its says: "The Assassin can then...." The "then" suggests a next step. Every assassin has these words, hence, there are abilities happening simultaneously (deploying the models) - hence looking at the Hints and Tips, you do these in an order of your choice, so you deploy all the assassin models in an order of your choice. Now looking at the "The Assassin can then" wording, you again have a load of simultaneous abilities, so you pile in and attack with all the assassins in an order of your choice. Once they are done the combat phase proper begins (although I would say it is implicit that you cannot select the assassins to attack again).

[Sarkazim]

15 hours ago, Nico said:

He does count as having made his attacks - this is implicit...  Also you would expect explicit wording to make this clear.

There is NOTHING implicit at all in the rule, or else the question wouldn't have even come up.   I'm still VERY new to AoS, and my intent isn't to break the game, but to sort it out.  I went looking at other Warscrolls to see how they were worded.  One thing I noticed is that every ability breaks the normal rules, and they are explicit about how they interact with the rules.  A good example is Bloodletters, Retributors, Executioners.  They have a rule where when they roll a 6 to wound, they generate Mortal Wounds.  The kicker here is that they included the addition of '...instead of it's normal damage'.

We're missing those key words on the Assassin.  We're not attacking with the Assassin, we're resolving 'Hidden Murderer' which allows us to pile in and attack, outside of the normal order of things.  We're not explicitly instructed to treat the Assassin otherwise.  Once 'Hidden Murderer' is resolved, what step do we return to?  Are we back to the 'Beginning of the Combat Phase'?  With only 1 Assassin in play, this appears to be the case, and play would resume where it left off.  (I'll come back to this)
 

15 hours ago, Nico said:

It doesn't count as a selection - this is expressly clear in the case where your opponent would normally go first. It is also clear from the fact that it doesn't say "select" to pile in and attack it just says that it piles in and attacks.

Here is where I think I'm getting confused, because you seem to be jumping to the other side of the fence and disagreeing with your previous statement.  I know it's not your intent, but I did think on it.  You're saying it doesn't count as a selected unit, but at the same time it counts as having attacked for the current Combat Phase.  The upside of this is that if I have the initiative, then I can still pick a unit after resolving 'Hidden Murderer'.  So I can put that to rest.  

However, since the Assassin hasn't been 'selected' to make his attacks, he just 'piles in and attacks' then it is tied to 'Hidden Murderer' and he hasn't actually performed his attack for the turn.  This is more in line with the rules than the implication that he has already attacked.  Once we return to the normal order of play after resolving 'Hidden Murderer' the normal rules kick in and allow both players to select units 'until all eligible units have attacked once'.  

IF I understand your train of thought, this is how you're choosing to treat the Assassin.
- Are we in the combat phase? Yes.  
- Has the assassin attacked? Yes (because the rule says 'pile in and attack').  
- Since the model has rolled it's attacks, during the combat phase, has attacked once so is ineligible.

Where I disagree is that the model hasn't made it's attacks, it's only resolved it's 'Hidden Murderer' Ability.
- Start of Combat Phase
- Trigger 'Hidden Murderer' and resolve.  
- Player who's turn it is picks a unit to 'Attack' with.
- etc.

The Assassin is still eligible to attack because Hidden Murderer is missing the words 'piles in and attacks for the turn'.  THIS would bring it in line with all of the other Abilities on any other Warscroll.  Since it's missing those additional words to explicitly exempt it from the normal order of play, then he remains an eligible choice to attack with.  If the words on Bloodletters, etc had removed the words '... instead of it's normal damage', then it could be implied that the mortal wounds are instead of the normal damage, but could also still be implied that a normal wound is also generated.

BOTH remain valid interpretations of the rule.

While it's counter-intuitive to think that a model that rolls it's attack dice can still get to attack in the normal order of things, the alternative implication is worse.  By stating that the Assassin has made his attacks for the turn, doesn't count as being selected, but can't be selected when the normal order is restored, you're picking and choosing which rules to apply and when to apply them.  This also makes the Assassin the only model with an ability, that is having the the core rules apply to individual portions of it at different times.  When it should be treated like every other Warscrolls ability, and resolved completely, before applying the next step.
 

16 hours ago, Nico said:

it would be wildly undercosted if you could attack twice. 

This is an opinion.  He's overcosted when playing your interpretation.  His ability to kill isn't great, and he can't really Assassinate anything.  He's more of a joke, and was completely useless after he had popped out.  The other players even agreed that after seeing them, they weren't afraid at all.  

Allowing him to attack during the normal order of things makes him cost appropriate, and turns him into the glass cannon he should be.  We ran some numbers and we couldn't reliably get the Assassin to kill most of the heroes out there with the 12 attacks.  With the models with a 4+ save, it was an even break as he MIGHT be able to kill them.  

As a result of this, the group is going to allow me to play with the additional attack.  Treating the ability as a true 'Interrupt', and returning to the normal order of play where he is an eligible unit.  We'll see how it goes and if it's still overpowered after a few games against different opponents.  As is though, he's not worth taking over a 5 man unit.  

-----
As for the other things.  No one other than you has said that I have to reveal all of the Assassins, and then resolve their pile/attacks in an order of my choosing.  There is no cause to interrupt one Assassin to reveal another Assassin before finishing the first.  As above, even using 2 Assassins for 12 attacks anyways, they still couldn't kill a hero (though they did get them to 1-2 wounds left).  

Thanks for your input though, I've been able to look at the rules from a different light, and come to a conclusion to allow me to keep playing them and try it out.

 

[Nico]

Quote

1) First is what Fued asked.  Hidden Murderer interrupts the existing rules which has two parts.  The first is the place the model at the start of the Combat Phase.  The second part is to pile in and attack.  Both of these happen before any units are selected to make their attacks, even if it's the opponents turn.
Once that is done, the normal flow of play resumes and we're back to picking units.  What we want to know the answer to is where does the Assassin sit?  Did he make his attacks already?  Or did he just do his Hidden Murderer, and is still eligible for selection to make his attacks as normal?  Another way of putting it is 'Does Hidden Murderer count as his attacking for the current phase, or is in addition to it, and he gets to attack normally when selected?'

He does count as having made his attacks - this is implicit - however, it would be wildly undercosted if you could attack twice. Also you would expect explicit wording to make this clear.

Quote

2) The second issue, comes based off the first.  If he is counted as having attacked? Then does that count as the controlling players selection?  It came up in my game, and it starts to get fuzzy when you count the model as having attacked for the Phase.  If we're counting the model as having attacked, then why aren't we also counting it as selecting the model for the turn?  It almost seems to contrast the instinct on how we play question #1.

Example.  In my game tonight, I had won the initiative and charged.  I decided to use one of my Assassins following the rules.  I placed the model, piled in, made his attacks.  Once that was done though, my opponent simply asked if that counted as my normal selection.  The rule didn't say.  We decided to treat it just like an 'Interrupt' ability (for those familiar with MTG).  So we resolved it, and I still got to nominate one of my units to attack.  So I picked the unit he was attached to and effectively got 2 units activation in a row.  He felt it was unfair until he saw the Assassin only kill 1 model.  The reverse is also true?  If it did count, then he'd only be worth popping out when my opponent has the initiative to steal the rotation, and no one thought that was correct either.

It doesn't count as a selection - this is expressly clear in the case where your opponent would normally go first. It is also clear from the fact that it doesn't say "select" to pile in and attack it just says that it piles in and attacks.

Quote

3) If we go off of treating it as an 'Interrupt' ability.  Then we have another conflict when dealing with multiple Assassins.  Say I'm holding 2 Assassins in one unit, and want to use both of them.  There is no clear guideline on how to do that, since the rules appear to be read from only having one Assassin.  

There is a guideline in the hints and tips area of every Battletome. If multiple simultaneous abilities happen, then the player whose turn it is decides which order to do them in. This also means that you can trump the Quicksilver potion or Treelord Stomping, as the two things happen at the same time - which means in your turn you can choose your rule to go off first.

It's been longstanding that more than one fanatic unit can pop out in the "start of" the charge phase which is analogous.

I would deploy all the assassins that you want simultaneously (well technically one after another), then attack with them in an order of your choice. This is quite balanced as you could get lucky with the first one and kill the target and then the second one is wasted and with hindsight shouldn't have popped out that turn. Similarly with Fanatics, you cannot pop one out, try to charge, fail, then pop another one out and try to charge. You have to pop out both units, then roll both charges.

So in summary - pop all of them out, then you pile in and attack with all of them in an order of your choosing, then the combat phase begins as normal, so the player whose turn it is selects a unit to pile in and attack with. So you could have 6 assassins activate, then another friendly unit, then an enemy unit, in your own turn in theory.

[Sarkazim]

I played my first game with my Shadowblades today.  I think I understand the question a bit better, and the problems associated with it.

The relevant part of the rule:

Quote

Hidden Murderer
At the start of any combat phase you can reveal the Assassin; set him up withing 1" of the unit you picked.  The Assassin can then pile in and attack, even if it is your opponent's turn to select a unit to attack with.

So there is no issue with the Assassin popping up at the start of the Combat phase.  What we're unclear on is how to treat the rule in relation to the normal rule order.  So here are the questions I have.

1) First is what Fued asked.  Hidden Murderer interrupts the existing rules which has two parts.  The first is the place the model at the start of the Combat Phase.  The second part is to pile in and attack.  Both of these happen before any units are selected to make their attacks, even if it's the opponents turn.
Once that is done, the normal flow of play resumes and we're back to picking units.  What we want to know the answer to is where does the Assassin sit?  Did he make his attacks already?  Or did he just do his Hidden Murderer, and is still eligible for selection to make his attacks as normal?  Another way of putting it is 'Does Hidden Murderer count as his attacking for the current phase, or is in addition to it, and he gets to attack normally when selected?'

The rule isn't really clear either way.  Nico, I don't think your answer cleared that up in any way.

2) The second issue, comes based off the first.  If he is counted as having attacked? Then does that count as the controlling players selection?  It came up in my game, and it starts to get fuzzy when you count the model as having attacked for the Phase.  If we're counting the model as having attacked, then why aren't we also counting it as selecting the model for the turn?  It almost seems to contrast the instinct on how we play question #1.

Example.  In my game tonight, I had won the initiative and charged.  I decided to use one of my Assassins following the rules.  I placed the model, piled in, made his attacks.  Once that was done though, my opponent simply asked if that counted as my normal selection.  The rule didn't say.  We decided to treat it just like an 'Interrupt' ability (for those familiar with MTG).  So we resolved it, and I still got to nominate one of my units to attack.  So I picked the unit he was attached to and effectively got 2 units activation in a row.  He felt it was unfair until he saw the Assassin only kill 1 model.  The reverse is also true?  If it did count, then he'd only be worth popping out when my opponent has the initiative to steal the rotation, and no one thought that was correct either.

3) If we go off of treating it as an 'Interrupt' ability.  Then we have another conflict when dealing with multiple Assassins.  Say I'm holding 2 Assassins in one unit, and want to use both of them.  There is no clear guideline on how to do that, since the rules appear to be read from only having one Assassin.  

When discussed, one player thought that we must reveal ALL Assassins that we intend to use.  Then we go back and pile in and attack with each one.  I initially didn't have an issue with this, until we resolve the attacks for each Assassin independently, with one potentially causing casualties preventing the other from attacking.  A simple solution was to then treat them as attacking at the same time, so as long as they both could attack, they could both kill.  Do we Interrupt and resolve(1), then Interrupt and resolve (2)?  Or do we Interrupt(1), then Interrupt(2), then Interrupt(3) resolve, resolve (2), resolve (1)?

The alternative solution, which made sense, but goes against the instinct, was to completely resolve 'Hidden Murderer' for each Assassin.  The flow doesn't break the order of things.
     - Start of Combat Phase
     - 'Hidden Murderer' triggers (Assassin 1) - Resolve
     - Return to Start of Combat Phase
     - 'Hidden Murderer' triggers (Assassin 2) - Resolve 
     - Return to start of Combat Phase
     - Resume Combat Phase as Normal

There are two arguments ( and use arguments because the players I've spoken with are really divided here.)  Are we still at the Start of the Combat Phase after an Assassin has used 'Hidden Murderer'?  If we aren't, then only 1 Assassin could be activated per combat phase, even if the player had 6.  If we are still at the start of the Combat Phase, we get a 'Security' tactic.  ie. Assassin 1 Resolves 'Hidden Murderer' and fails to kill his target, so THEN the player decides to activate Assassin 2 to finish the job.  Even as Dirty a tactic as it sounds (We are Dark Aelves after all), there didn't seem to be an issue with it being done that way.  It seems to have made it into the book of 'Things you can do, but you're kind of a ****** for doing it'.  

-----

It became even scarier when we went back and looked at how the game would be played based on how questions 1 and 2 get answered.  One of my groups has agreed to let me play it all the different ways, so we'll see for ourselves.  They actually don't have a problem with using the Assassin to interrupt my own selection, then selecting the unit he was in to attack with before he even gets to roll.  They're a little sketchy on being able to activate the Assassin again because of the same scenario.  The potential for the Assassin to use 'Hidden Murderer', and then immediately get picked as my first unit means he might actually DO what he's supposed to.  

The 6 Attacks on a 3+/3+ with no Rend isn't that scary.  12 Attacks on a 3+/3+ actually justifies his cost, and I'm not just saying that because I'm playing them.  The fear is when they hit HERO models and the attacks become D3 wounds.  12 Attacks doing that before a HERO gets to go is not something anyone wants to go up against.  The reverse is also true.  Having an Assassin that interrupts and only does an average of 3-5 wounds before getting wiped off the board isn't very fun for us.  We ran some dice rolling Scenarios, and even at the 12 Attacks, he couldn't really kill most of the Heroes we rolled against.  This did have an impact on the group at least letting me try it for a few games, because they don't want to see me NOT bring Assassins when they're a huge part of my force.

Any insight/opinions would be handy.  I didn't mean to hi-jack Fued's thread, but it's all on topic.

Thank You.