Ward saves and bodyguard rules - is there actually a clear answer to this?

[yukishiro1]

I've seen this played and argued for every possible way, and I'm wondering if there really is a clear answer, because the FAQ answers are about as clear as mud, given that they only refer to really weird bodyguard abilities that specifically include negation of the wound in them, rather than simply stating that the wound is allocated to a different target.

So let's take a really run-of-the-mill bodyguard example - Immortis Guard from OBR.

Quote

Soulbound Protectors:

Roll a dice before you allocate a wound or mortal
wound to a friendly OSSIARCH BONEREAPERS
HERO while it is within 3" of any friendly units
with this ability. On a 2+, you must allocate that
wound or mortal wound to a friendly unit with
this ability that is within 3" of that OSSIARCH
BONEREAPERS HERO instead of allocating it to
that OSSIARCH BONEREAPERS HERO.

How does this actually work in the current version of the game? Wards are supposed to be rolled before allocating a wound, so do you get to roll the ward for the hero first, and then if it fails, you get to roll a 2+ to allocate it to the Immortis? Do the Immortis get to roll their ward as well?

The two FAQs GW has sought fit to provide say, first:

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Q: If a player makes a successful dice roll to negate a wound or mortal wound, and this triggers an effect that forces a wound or mortal wound to be allocated to a different unit (as per, for example, ‘Sworn Protectors’ in Battletome: Fyreslayers or ‘The Armour of Morkar’ in Battletome: Slaves to Darkness), can an attempt be made to negate that additional wound or mortal wound if an effect would allow a player to do so? A: No. Wounds and mortal wounds allocated in this way cannot be negated.

This doesn't apply to the standard bodyguard wording because the standard bodyguard wording, unlike the two examples given above, makes no mention of negating a wound. The first wound isn't negated and a new wound isn't conjured into being. It instead takes the same wound and transfers it to a different target instead. 

The second one is similarly unhelpful:

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Q: Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to attempt to negate a wound or mortal wound, but that roll may have a different effect depending on the score of the dice (as per, for example, the ‘Soul-forged Guardians’ ability on the Praetors warscroll). Are these abilities wards, and is the roll a ward roll? A: Yes.

Again, this addresses rules that negate wounds; the standard wording on the bodyguard rule doesn't negate a wound, it transfers it. 

So it would seem to me that the hero can roll any ward roll they may have before rolling the bodyguard rule? Note that a prior version of the AOS 3 core rules FAQ specifically prohibited this via answer that stated that bodyguard rules were used instead of wards, not in addition to them, but that FAQ was removed a while ago, and nothing I can see in the core rules defines a bodyguard rule as a ward. 

On the question of whether the Immortis Guard can take their ward roll, 14.3 says you can only make one ward roll per allocated wound. If we read it at the same wound being allocated to the Immortis instead of the hero, this would imply to me that you can't take a ward roll after the bodyguard, if you already took one on the hero. Though if the hero didn't have a ward or you chose not to take it, you could arguably then take it on the Immortis unit since a ward save hadn't yet been made as to that wound?

Am I totally lost here? Does anyone have a better answer than "you can take one ward save per bodyguarded wound, whether on the bodyguarded unit or the bodyguard unit?" 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by yukishiro1

[VladdyDaddy]

There are two different types of bodyguard abilities, the old style and the new style.

New style are ones like 'soul forged guardians' for praetors specifically mention negating wounds and therefore are 'ward rolls' and cannot be used in conjuction with wards.

Then the 'old style' ones like belladammas 'first of the vyrkos' which doesn't negate wounds and are not considered 'wards'. There has been plenty of faqs and chances to update this, and they haven't. So my group presume this means they are supposed to be different. This is the same for your scenario with the immortis guard.

The only thing is, both bonereapers, soulblight and a few others (saurus guard and their 'ward save' from banner etc.) Have a 'ward save' that triggers *when* allocating wounds to a unit, not *before*. However, the 'bodyguard' rule clearly states *before* allocating.

Therefore, for belladamma and your scenario with the immortis, you would roll armour saves with the hero, then *before allocating* wounds, roll the 'bodyguard' ability, then the bodyguard unit would get their 'ward save' against the transferred wounds *when allocating* them. Belladamma/the bonereaper hero would also get their ward save against any wounds that were not transferred, as they clearly state *when allocating wounds* they get their 6+ ward, and *before allocating wounds* they get their bodyguard ability.

Both FAQs reference rule negation specifically, which immortis guard don't do, and abilities that negate and dish back mortal wounds (archaons armour, nagashs armour etc.) Whereby if you roll a 6+ to save, you do a mortal back to the opponent which cannot be negated. The faqs are not talking about the old style bodyguard abilities.