Andrew G
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Posts posted by Andrew G
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1 minute ago, Rock Lobster said:
Post em up and let the green people vote, it will be a great resource for other players.
I already did here, do you mean on honest wargamer? I'll consider doing a write-up, I feel like a lot people don't understand how to play gorefist properly and just think "Oh, it's 1 trick alphastrike. No big deal". When the reality of it is I'm committing my Waaghs and hammers T2 against good players 90% of the time.
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18 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:
MY LIST IS DA BEST!
Name: Bodies, Bravery and Bashiness
IronJawz – Hysh
Megaboss on Maw Krusha – Prophet of the Waaagh and Mirrored Cuirass
Warchanter – Aetherquartz Broach
Warchanter – Boss Stikka
20 ardboyz – Big Choppas
20 ardboyz – Big Choppas
5 brutes – claw, gore choppa and two brute choppas
3 gore gruntas – pig iron choppas
3 gore gruntas – pig iron choppas
Ironfist
Bloodtoofs
2000 on the nose
Drops: 1
Command Points: 2
Wounds: 151
Pretty much exactly the same as my Bloodtoofs list I posted a few months ago. The only difference is I run 2x5 brutes and 1 unit of 30 'ardboyz, everything else is EXACTLY the same. I definitely feel that something approximating this is the strongest Bloodtoofs list available at the moment.
I'm still a fan of my Gorefist list, and feel like it's stronger than Bloodtoofs, but I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to shell out for 7 boxs of gruntas and this list is a really solid alternative.edited* for page stretch
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29 minutes ago, Malakree said:
To be honest that's the best, and only, reason to be playing ironjawz atm. Build a list you find fun and enjoyable then play it.
There's a guy who plays darkling covens at tournaments, he went 2/5 at chrimbobo which is as good/better than people playing "meta" armies. This is entirely because he knows his army and plays it well.
The 1/5 to 3/5 bracket is as much to do with basic mechanics as it is your list.
You want a lulz list specifically to try and derail the nurgle player, using brutes.
Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- General
- Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
Battleline
20 x Orruk Brutes (720)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Battalions
Gorefist (190)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 151
The gorefist is there to get across the board and pin his army in awkward ways. Brutish Cunning is for much the same reason.
3 warchanters with reroll 1s to hit and wound should allow your brutes to delete anything they touch.
No idea how/if it would work in practice but theoretically you should be able to counter army wide debuffs by concentrating your power into one block you can buff just as hard.
The other option is to ally in some gitmob arti pieces, against mass -hit doomdivers will be fantastic as they essentially ignore it.
I've actually been experimenting with this basic idea, Gorefist first wave w/ Brute second wave. Bigger Brute unit to leverage rampaging destroyer and just speed boost the hell out of the unit so it's actually in position to engage T2.
Think this idea might actually have some gas.
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26 minutes ago, Malakree said:
Screen. That's it. You put a basic screen up and the IJ Alphastrike dies on it's ******.
A line of 40 skeletons 3" ahead of the rest of your army so that he wipes them out and can't pile in past the line. You then use Magic and the fact he's crippled in his own turn to neuter his army, spend a CP to bring your skeles back, bog him down in never ending combats and grind him into dust.
With SCE and Deepkin you can set the core parts of the army up off the table then bring them on to snipe his key bits. DoK, Idoneth, SCE, LoN should all have a pretty solid win rate against the list you are describing if they are built properly. Sounds like it's mostly just poor deployment.
4", you can still pile-in even if there's not an enemy unit within 3" the turn you charge. Tabled a lot of guys who make this mistake.
Good screening does kill the T1 alpha strike, but against perfect screening you just play traditional Alphastrikes like any other combat IJ list, i.e the "waves" approach. Force them to go first, use just enough units/waaagh to effectively take down those screens, hedge against the double turn by keeping the Waaagh Sources/Hammers safe, but really just pray for double turn and and that you have enough CP left to actually kill the important stuff in T2. If you don't get the T2 initiative, hope your durable first wave of units ties up enough to allow the Waaagh! Sources/Hammers to survive.
Not arguing that if a Gorefist player just commits every unit to a screen that's positioned correctly and blows all his CP that he'll lose, but I honestly feel like it currently has the best chance vs. Sacrament played correctly. I could argue it's an 'ardfist, but in my experience it's a tougher matchup.
Do agree with the SCE/ Deepkin part though, honestly think deepstrike armies are a much harder counter than Death/ DoK, at least for the lists I play.
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24 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:
After half a year and much speculation on the viability of lists, experiments with Bloodtoofs and Ironfist and so forth is there a consensus on best list? I know there’s been a lot of toss up between ArdBoyz being worthless and/or great.
I haven’t played my Ironjawz probably since August so I’m slightly out of the loop. Tried out Death and found them to be not to my taste and was missing the simple Ork smash and bash style.
Have I missed any major developments?
Last I heard something like this is one of the best lists:
Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Miasmatic Blade
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies
Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Battalions
Bloodtoofs (120)
Ironfist (180)
Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 112
Welcome back into the fold! You're never going to get a complete consensus on what's the "best list", but I can tell you for sure that it isn't anything close to the one you posted. Best showing I've seen recently from IJ was at SoCal Open with a double Mawkrusher Gorefist. Personally, I switch between a Gorefist an a 'ardfist when I'm playing competitively.
That said, most people don't have the models to run a good Gorefist/'ardfist, so there's still plenty of people experimenting with Bloodtoofs/Ironfists. A couple of things I'd consider changing if you're looking to make a better Bloodtoofs list.
-112 wounds is way too low for an IJ list. Especially one that can't reliably alphastrike. You're overspending on characters.
- No Mortal Wound save on the Mawkrusher.
- Footboss can't keep up the rest of the army. You pretty much have to take thermalrider if you're using a footboss as a back-up Waaagh! source.
- 2 Warchanters, but every troop is min sized. Only 1 of the Warchanters is going to net any real value by buffing the Mawkrusher. Consider dropping one, or if you're going to keep 2, bring at least one 2x strength unit to be a buff sponge for the second chanter.
- Reconsider Cogs, it doesn't make you fast enough to T1 charge, and the army is already fast enough to reliably charge T2 without it. The only thing it's really doing in this list is making it easier for enemy deepstrikers to charge the turn they land. That, and it's pretty risky tying in a 60 point spell to a single 4 wound wizard.
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Lost my first game yesterday with the Gorefist list I posted a while back. I'd figure a Sacrosanct, DoK, Sequitor/Evoc spammer would get me eventually, but it was freaking TZEENTCH who I thought were pretty much done as an army. These new Enlightened are just so damn good at 140 though.
His list was basically:
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
Lord Of Change (380)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (280)
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (420)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (60)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Wounds: 125-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Scenario: Comets drop at the beginning of 2nd battle round in each deployment zone. Score points based off of current battle round #.
Deployment: He castles his entire army between two tall pieces of terrain in the corner, puts his acolyte screens/pinks in a semi-circle around the rest of his units making sure the Enlightened and characters were at least 4" away from the front of the screens. Smart play, but it's pretty much what everyone has been doing vs. this list the last few months and I've been able to play around it. I do notice that he's just at that 4" mark with one of the blocks of Enlightened, so if my Mawkrusher destructive bulk/shooting clears up the majority of one of the acolyte screens I should be fine.
T1 IJ: Gorefist moves up, get one rampaging off that I have to use on the Mawkrusher. Used 5cp on Waaagh, thinking broach would proc once or twice and I could save that CP for a charge reroll, no 5+'s so I'm screwed there. My two 6 Gore units w/ frenzy of violence are going to have to make 9" charges w/o reroll because of these two huge pieces of terrain he's used to anchor his flanks.
Of course everything gets in besides the two units of 6 ggs. Mawkrusher does his work with shooting/destructive bulk to open up enough room for a GG unit to charge though the gap. In the combat phase I kill all the acolytes, the pinks, and the unit of 6 enlightened before he swings. All he has left are the characters and the unit of 9 enlightened. Pretty much thought it was game at this point; I have complete board control, have taken 0 damage, and have his entire army pretty much pinned.
T1 Tzeentch: We were playing on realm of life, and there's a spell that allows him to relocate his caster 18". So he's able to use that to pop his LoC into the corner of the board, giving him barely enough room to actually summon w/ his blue horror points. He nukes my Mawcrusher w/ all the spells, suffering 11 mortal wounds(only got 1 cuirass save). The9 enlightened pop the unit of 6GGs on the flank.
-Comets drop. One lands in the corner where his LoC and Blue horrors are, the other lands caddy corner, the only sector I didn't have a warchanter covering the backline. Perfect drops for my opponent, if either comet landed in a different sector I think I would have won.
T2 Tzeentch: Priority roll was obvious huge here, and he was able to relocate the gaunt summoner now w/ the same realm spell into the corner with the LoC and Blue Screen. He kills the Mawkrusher with a few spells, and then wipes out another block of 3ggs with an enlightened charge. So all I have left at this point are 2x3ggs, 1x6ggs, and 3 warchanters. Which in most circumstances would be enough to bog him down long enough to win the objective game, but I'm behind because of where they dropped, so I have to take the objective in the corner of his deployment zone for at least 1 round to win.
T2 IJ: The GGs left are the furthest away from his new castle in the corner, and the only viable charge is into the Shaman and the Enlightened. Kill the shaman which I thought would get rid of unfold reality but he also has it on the Gaunt unfortunately, can't kill the enlightened and the 4 surviving enlightened end up forcing a battleshock test on the unit of 6ggs which kills off the unit ( 3 ended up running).
T3 IJ: Still bogged down with enlightened with 2x3ggs. End up kill off the Enlightened
T3 Tzeentch: Starts nuking the GGs, summons more blues.
I end up calling it here, he had enough blues at this point to pretty much ensure I'd never be able to get the point off him. Tough loss, but definitely a few things I could have done differently. Not saving 1 cp for charge reroll was greedy, probably should have gone second against his army even with spell portal. Just fed him too many bluepoints too early, and didn't account for the realm of life relocation spell giving him the space to actually summon.
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IJ gets hit harder than almost any other army when playing at lower than 2k. ( The way waaagh works, battalion pricing, etc.)
That said, the key to lower point games with IJ is to bring MSU troops and minimum supporting units IMO.
So, something like the list Superninja posted: a couple of Waaagh sources and maybe a warchanter, fill out the rest with MSU troops for easier Waaagh!s and/or the ability to spread for objectives. If you brought a warchanter, I'd probably take 1 larger unit (20 'ardboyz works nice) just to be the sponge for Frenzy of Violence so you actually net some real value from it.There's no sugarcoating it though, if you're playing IJ at this point it's for the uphill battles
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Assuming there's no changes to Waaagh! stacking (sifting through the GHB 2019 suggestions, there seems to be a pretty big push to eliminate it. Hopefully GW has better sense.)
Mawkrusher- 420
All battalions- Reduce by 20 points.
GGs- Charge rolls of 8+ trigger the hooves d3 damage. Either that, or nerf their equivalents(enlightened, eels, skullcrushers) significantly.
'ardboyz- 160/420Brutes- I don't like dropping them to 160. Rather have a tweak to make them worth 180. The new bravery artifacts help a lot, but the opportunity cost is too high with broach,ignax/cuirass, thermalrider being so valuable to our army.
If the MK becomes cheaper, maybe change the ability on the Footboss to grant battleshock immunity/+ Bravery to Brutes within 6" along with the reroll 1's. Makes the choice between MK, Footboss, Banner at little bit harder and helps Brutes out at the 180 price point.Anyway, this is always hard to do without knowing the changes their making to the current top armies.
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21 hours ago, Malakree said:
Eqaually the artefact I included was very considered. I think the thermalrider cloak on the warchanter is going to be key because of how the Ardfist trigger is worded now. Due to the fact there is no "trigger window" we can use it during the movement phase AFTER we move the warchanter, this lets us use that movement to artificially impact where the Ardboys will come on, something which can easily let us steal games against opponents who don't expect it.
Can I get a reference for the "trigger window" ruling? I noticed the FAQ on 'ardfist doesn't specify a phase for the abilities' usage, but I've just assumed that means it's hero phase only. Assuming we can use the ability in the movement/charge phase, I completely agree that thermalrider's value shoots way up. It would definitely make me consider a 2k list wwith thermalrider/ignax scales over the 1900 Broach/Cuirass list I'm currently running.
That said, I still think broach+prophet is superior in an 'ardfist. To answer your question directly, is the two extra waaghs on turn 3 worth it in the scenario outlined? Yea, absolutely worth it, especially considering each Waagh has a roughly 30% chance of generating an extra attack w/ prophet. It's going to allow you to space out your Waaghs, get through anvils/screens in a single turn, and still have the juice to deal with everything else afterwards. I find that 'ardfist without broach+prophet just gets hungup on troops too long before their heroes get mortal wounded to death.
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25 minutes ago, brankignole said:
I like your 3rd list because you have the good wound count as well as 1 drop, 3 artefacts ... Did you try to insert a warboss with banner to provide another waaagh generator as well as giving reroll 1 to wound ?
I would consider it if I could just straight swap one of the goregrunta units. The 5 battline requirement for Bloodtoofs, needing the horde discount on the 'ardboyz, and losing 1 drop isn't worth IMO.
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22 minutes ago, Banglesprout said:
Hey @Andrew G thanks for your thoughts!
It's interesting that you list Bloodtoofs lists as one of the three mistakes people are making, but the third list you've been playing *is* a Bloodtoofs list, so you must think it still can be worthwhile - what makes you take it in that third list?
I'm going to try the following list for my next games - mainly because I want to try a larger unit of Gruntas & Brutes. Not sure whether I wanna keep that 100 points for command points, out try to fill it with something...
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
I just kind of wanted to throw it in there as an example of a "good" bloodtoofs list. I usually play it against the non-tourney guys in my group; losing T1 or summoning 300+ points of 'ardboyz back on the board leaves a sour taste in their mouth.
That said, merits of Bloodtoofs is it makes Brutes playable without having to grab Bravery artifacts. I was running no battalion for a while, but because of the scenarios that require wizards/artifact heroes to capture I had to readjust. If I'm trying to actually compete I bring Gorefist, or the 'ardfist list.Also keep off the 100 points IMO. Also go 2x5 with the Brutes and combine 2 of the 'ardboyz into a unit of 20. You can't run units of 10 Brutes without Bloodtoofs, Bravery artifacts, or using CP. I find the artifacts/CP too valuable, not to mention Waagh! scales way better with MSU brutes compared to larger units of them.
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Here's the 3 I've been playing @broche. Sorry for the page stretch, couldn't figure out how to get spoilers to work.
Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Gorefist (190)
Total: 1850 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137--------------------------------------------------------------
Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (80)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
Ardfist (170)
Total: 1890 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 166
---------------------------------------------------------------Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Bloodtoofs (120)
Ironfist (180)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
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Mileage may vary with this, but I haven't lost with IJ in my last 15 games, and my local group has 10+ people who regularly attend GTs and place well. 3 of those games were in a 20 person local tourney that I won. I've beaten all current power builds (60-90 witchelf DoK, Idoneth Eel Spam, LoN with 2x30 Grimghast reapers with 1 cp respawns,Stormcast Sequitor/Evocator spam, Nurgle). All that to say, I'm not just bashing noobs and now trying to give advice to my fellow IJ players!
Here's my list of pitfalls I think IJ players fall into though.1). Overspending on characters- First thing I look at in any IJ list is wound count, and if you're sitting below 140ish wounds, you're most likely overspending on characters. Every IJ build besides Gorefist functions best as a counter punch build (against good players even Gorefist is pretty much a counter punch build), meaning you need the raw Wounds in your list be able to saturate the board and absorb charges.
2). Bloodtoofs- It's really obvious to me why 70% of the lists I see posted here and in the Facebook groups I follow are Bloodtoofs. It requires the lowest model count, and it offers a "balanced" playstyle between Gorefist and defensive wound per point lists. The problem is, straddling that middle area just leaves you with a list that really isn't good at anything. It's too thin to be able to absorb charges and punch back, and too slow to threaten alpha strikes.
3) Magic investment- I'm excluding fungoid generals here, because the command ability actually has a lot of value, but I really question the addition of magic into any list that where it isn't the main focal point. There's just soooo many armies that can bully you in the Magic phase, that casaul 80-240 point investment into a caster+ endless spell is rarely going to recoup its value compared to an equal investment in troops or warchanters. This point I'm fully willing to admit might be based on my local meta, but in about 80% of my games the only value I netted out of my fungoid or Weirdnob is turn 1 mystic shield before enemy dispellers get in range and shut him down.
Now, if you're a complete powergamer looking to win a GT, would I recommend you bring IJ? Definitely not, there's better armies out there that are way more consistent and forgiving, but you can definitely be successful with them and compete against top tier builds.-
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14 minutes ago, broche said:
i think he meant you generate about 4 attack per 3 CP instead of 7 attack per 6 CP
It's way more than that. You have to account for those extra CP generated also being affected by broach, it maths out to about 1.45 CP for each CP used (just accounting for broach at this point). Prophet of the Waaagh gives you roughly a 30% compared to 16.6% chance of generating an extra attack per CP. So it's something close to 1.9 extra attacks per 1 CP used.
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8 hours ago, broche said:
@Hot Peanut You still have some trick agains screen, but i think you need to play a bit different.
1. How far is the juicy stuff behind the screen. If it's less than 4'' (or 5'' if you play Hacka), you can reach it with pile in
2. How tough if the screen(s)
So depending on thoses, you should play differently.
A. If screen is fragile and stuff is less than 4'' away: send all gruntas with maybe +3 attack from Warboss to whipe it, then pile on second row.
B. If screen is fragile and stuff is more than 4'' away: send 6-12 gruntas with maybe +1 attack from Warboss to whipe it. Since stuff is far you're not expose to counter attack. Use Gordrack and others gruntas units to grab neutral objectives and keep Gordrack for a later turn.
C. If screen is too tough to kill (fyreslayer, Sequitor, bastilladon ect.) , you're best play is probably sending 6 gruntas with Mystic shield and just pin it for a turn or 2 and score point on the rest of the board.
That said, i can see none of those scenario where Cog is usefull. However a geminid could prove much usefull in scenario B and C. Someone from this forum seemed to have good sucess with Gorefirst don't remember his pseudo.
Yea, exactly right on the thought process of playing Gorefist. IMO regular Mawcrusher with the Aetherquartz/Prophet of Waaagh CP engine is just strictly better though. It allows you to throw Mirrored Cuirass on the MawKrusher which makes him way more survivable than Big G, allows you to space out your Waaagh! usage in case of effective screening (cheap screens across his entire army frontage w/ units more than 4" away), and you don't have any " Screen is too tough to kill moments" anymore because you can generate an extra 10+ extra attacks on the first turn.
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3 hours ago, velocitydog said:
Hi all, I'm a very noob IJ player with some very noob questions about some of the army abilities. It seems like I'm missing something. Apologies if this has been covered in earlier posts.
Regarding Mighty Destroyers you have three options:
1) Make a normal move if >12" away from enemy unit - Question: Since this occurs in the Hero phase does the unit also get to move in the Move phase?
2) Pile-in - Question: What's the benefit of this? Why is this better than waiting until the Combat phase to pile-in?
3) Attempt to charge: Question, Again, what is the benefit of this? Why not wait to move and then charge to get even closer to an opponent?
Regarding Smashing and Bashing:
The benefit if I understand it correctly is it allows two of your units (or potentially more) in sequence rather than taking turns with your opponent.
Thanks in advance for any advice!
1) Yes, you can move the unit again later in the Move phase
2) The benefit is you can pile-in twice. Mighty Destroyers doesn't restrict the normal Combat phase pile-in.
3) The only real benefit here is on the Mawkrusher w/ his Destructive Bulk ability. If you're lucky you can clear a low wound unit with Destructive Bulk in the Hero phase, still move in the Move phase (assuming you killed off the unit), and repeat the process in the Charge phase.
4) Yep, that's exactly what Smash and Bash offers.
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2 hours ago, broche said:
For me the key learning of AoS2 (and it was experimented sucessfully by @Superninja):
- Ironjawz are mostly slow
- Ironjawz don't have deepstriking
- Ironjawz have a good effective wound/point ratio
So that make them a defensive army with good counterpunching power. So your goal should be to occupy the board and score more point than your opponent and eventually win the attrition war. Investing point in strategy to move faster and bliztkrieg is counter productive (unless you're playing gorefist). Your just loosing those extra 15-20 wounds that are crucial to your strategy (defending and counter attacking)
I don't think it matters how many times you or I repeat this ?. Think it's why you're seeing more and more players just going generic destruction or bonesplitterz and focusing on wound per point lists and board coverage (look at facehammer results).
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I recently dropped both battalions from my lists and win % has skyrocketed since. My original frustrated rationale was something along the lines of, " If I'm going to be engaging turn 2 anway, why am I spending 300 points for mostly speed increases I don't need." I do miss the extra CP, bravery, artifacts sometimes, but effectively having two extra units on the board has just proved more useful for me in most matchups.
I've also been messing around with gorefist, and I actually think it's extremely viable even if your opponent screens well first turn. You don't actually need to fully commit to alpha-striking, you can spend a turn or two clearing chaff and grabbing objectives before you go for the killing blow on the important pieces. It just adds the ability to end a lot of games turn 1 if they don't screen almost perfectly , and sometimes the opponents armies just don't have the tools to deal with it even if they're fully aware it's coming. Admittingly, it is a little beefier than other gorefist lists I see shared (137 wounds) which might be influencing my perception that it doesn't necessarily collapse if you don't cripple the opponent's army turn 1.
Still slightly favoring no battalions, mostly because it's more fun to play, but I also think it suffers less in the event of a bad match-ups but I need to play a little more with gorefist to definitely determine that.
List for those interested.
Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Gorefist (190)
Total: 1850 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137---------
If we used the realm spells regularly 1 or 2 of those warchanters would be swapped for fungoids.
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6 minutes ago, broche said:
I'm 100% with Blackbreaker. For me the Bloodtooth Combo is not really a good list. There's too much point invested in non-troops to in the classic Bloodtooth list. It's a good list to do 3-3 or 4-2 in a tournament, as you're certain to face some scenario you'll be missing troop or an opponent who know how to screen and will just outplay you.
With the discount to Ardboys, Ironjawz can field a good amount of wound and many satellite units. With the access to waaagh stacking, it mean you can generate a good damage spike mid game. +3 attack or +7, it's not that relevant. If i can't kill it with +3 attack, i probably don't want to attack it anyway, i'm better focusing on stuff that will die to clear stuff and score point.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing. The list I was reviewing has 5 min size units of troops, the only way you can make a list function that light on troops is to go alphastrike IMO (probably resulting in 4-2/ 3-2 like you mentioned). My other suggestion was to actually do what both of you are suggesting and lean into more bodies/wounds... which I think is what both you guys are advocating for if I'm not mistaken?
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1 hour ago, Backbreaker said:
I'm not sure we have to go all or nothing with IJ.
I find that we have a resilient army, our models can take a lot of damage and still fight back. For example, on last Brute Boss under some waaaghs (+3) can hurt a LOT ! I think that instead of going for alpha or infinite ardboyz, a balanced list based on an ironfist/bloodtooth (without cogs to have a maximum of brutes/gruntas) can be really good.
For me the real question is if we can play without putting points into a weirdnob or a grot shaman, forgetting about magic and shooting, and just waaagh the ennemy to death ?
When I mentioned leaning into the bodies/wounds approach it doesn't necessarily need to default to 'ardfist. You can build some pretty meaty ironfists/bloodtoofs lists that can absorb alphastrikes.
Like I said though, 380 point buy-in to spell casting on top of 300 points on the battalions is going to leave you too thin to absorb a punch against the armies I listed. If you are going to go that thin on troops you need to be the army that's picking engagements and leveraging Smashing and Bashing to avoid getting hit. The only way to guarantee that happens is leaning more into more speed and lowerdrop counts (gorefist/ bloodtoofs-cogs).
Going entirely in the other direction. I actually like the dual shamans, I just think they're better placed is meatier list that actually can maintain the +2 to cast and can grind long enough to actually get some solid value out of the those endless spells.
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19 hours ago, Malakree said:
Wishful thinking from the destruction community.
So I've got a small tournament later this month and I'm taking this list. If it goes well I'm going to take it to blood and glory aswell.
Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)
Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
The Burning Head (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
What do people think?
Edit: Are there any other hysh relics instead the boss skewer?
First impressions is you're spending too many points on non-wound models in a list that can't effectively alpha strike. In a lot of matchups (Idoneth eels, stormcast deepstrike lists, DoK w/ cogs, LoN/NH grimgasts, etc.) your opponent is going to be picking the engagements and you don't have enough wounds to absorb the punch and counterpunch yourself.
I don't think the shamans are going to be able to do enough work in the first few turns to justify a 380 point buy-in to spells. It's also very unlikely you keep the +2 cast for more than a turn w/ this list, which you absolutely need to maintain to justify taking that many endless spells IMO.
I would either lean into a high/bodies wound approach backed by the shamans/endless spells, or just commit to the alphastrike and go gorefist or bloodtoofs/ cogs with mostly gruntas.
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2 hours ago, Fablo said:
Let me understand: Mighty Waagh give us +1/2 attacks, same for Waagh...but we need to roll 6 two times. But the other 5 bonus attack?
I miss something for sure ?Thanks guys
I think Malakree was accounting for the possibility of rolling a 6's on the Waaagh check and using aethquartz broach artifact (every time you use a command point on a 5+, you receive another CP).
Let
s say you turn 2 charge with Bloodtoofs, you're sitting on 4 cp, you'll gain an additional 1-2 CP from broach, and out of those 5-6 spent CP you'll most likely get a single roll of a 6' on the Waaagh! check. So, we're looking at around 6 extra attacks per weapon on average dice.
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Trying to think outside the box a bit. I keep defaulting to variants of Mawcrusher+ Ironfist everytime I try to build a list.
Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: The Golden Toof
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
Ironfist (180)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 181
The whole list should still be able to close by turn 2, possibly with 3 CP in the bank and Broach. 'ardboyz are deployed on the flanks stretched to the center to receive Waaghs, banner, chanter buffs . I'm a little worried about the warboss/megaboss being sniped early, but if I notice it's a recurring problem I've thought of some contingency lists that will hopefully keep them alive long enough to at least Waaagh dump turn 2 ( variants with Palisade, defensive artifact on MB, warchanter general w/ prophet of waaagh, a few others).
What do you guys think?
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2 hours ago, Ravinsild said:
So.... do all my leaders fall under the Battalion or literally only the Battleline?
Unfortunately, leaders don't fit in the Ironfist, it's just your battleline.
AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Here you go. Not much has changed on any of them since late October. I have experimented with swapping a Warchanter out for a Fungoid w/ realm rules becoming more common place, but I'm still not convinced it's worth it with Sacrement being so popular.