Andrew G
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Posts posted by Andrew G
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On 12/28/2019 at 1:25 AM, Kasper said:
Anyone else been toying around with Big Waagh alligiance? It honestly feels alot stronger than Ironjawz and I dont really miss Smashing and Bashing as much as I thought I would.
Im not even dabbling into the Bonesplitterz, besides a single caster to get access to their fight last spell. Everything hitting on 2’s, wounding on 2’s, with an army wide 6++ ontop is honestly so good.
I have never been a fan of the alphastrike gameplay, so I guess thats why this alligiance speaks alot more to me. It rewards a slower/tactical gameplay for sure.
Almost exactly what I'm playing right now. Big Waagh w/ all IJ except for one Wurgog.
Your observations about the trade-offs are pretty much inline with my thinking as well. 2+/2+ Goregruntas w/ warchanter is one of the scariest hammer units in the game. 'Ardboyz punch way above their points cost in Big Waaagh, both offensively and defensively (most of my lists are 'ardfists which probably ties into my thoughts on their defensive prowess).
The real gamechanger that I didn't really anticipate is the inclusion of Zap Em! +2 to cast either teleport from weirdnob, the horde nuke or fights last from the Wurgogg is absolutely massive.
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2 hours ago, Jabbuk said:
It's certainly a good list, I mean it's fairly similar to Leo's list on TheHonestWargamer, with a few tweaks you did of course. I like the addition of the Ardfist battalion and I think the groups of 15 ardboys are good value to justify the CP spending (as previously calculated by @Malakree and some other guys). I do notice however that you're relying on the Brooch to generate CP. Do you feel that it's reliable enough? That being said, have you given a thought about including some spicy elements like a big group of arrowboys for shooting, or the Rogue Idol for +cast, massive damage, etc?
Just throwing a few ideas here.
I think I remember watching a battle report with Leo about month ago, if I'm remember correctly it was IJ-Ironsunz list with pretty similar Troop/Hero set-ups but there are some pretty big differences (Big Waaagh over IJ, Wurgog over fungoid+scuttletide, 'ardfist over Ironfist to name a few).
As far as CP generation, I'm not entirely relying on Broach, I have the Wurgogg as well. In the handful of games I've played, CP hasn't been a problem, I've been able to Ere' We Go first round or 2 and have enough in the bank for 'ardfist and the occasional reroll 1's to hit on the Gore Gruntas. The Megaboss having Brutish Cunning also sidesteps the CP issue a bit.
I've thought of including more Bonesplitterz elements, but decided against it. I think they're only really worth it when you're investing in the whole range of support pieces, and I really don't have the hero slots or points to make both the IJ and Bonesplitterz element of the list work optimally.
As far as Rogue Idol, I think it's probably an overkill for casting when you have Zap Em and items to help ensure your big spells go off. I wouldn't trade the 6ggs + Warchanter for it in this type of list. I do think Rogue Idol is pretty decent in a pure Bonesplitterz list though.-
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Spoiler
Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Trait: Bestial Charisma
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Ardfist (120)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 158
Wanted to share what I've been running lately. Not really reinventing the wheel here, but I've went through a few iterations and settled on this being the "best" all-comers list I can come up with.
I'm still kind of debating whether I should split up one of the 'ardboyz units, but keeping them in mid-size units makes spending a CP for 'ardfist a lot more efficient at the expense of some versatility and having a truly sacrificial pieces.
I've been playing mostly in your face IJ lists. Wondering what your guys experience is playing slower Big Waaagh!
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19 minutes ago, Kasper said:
I mean we all knew it was cheesy as hell to run 5x5 Boyz and spam CPs to flood the edges of the board and it was 100% not intended to be played that way.
I could still see it being worthwhile in a BW army with bigger sized units where you don't have *that* valuable CP spenders. I would have liked it to be spmmable until you succeed in a 4+ roll though, just to combat bad streaks.
Yea, completely agree. The only way I would have kept running it is if they allowed you try multiple times to spawn a new units.
I just can't build a list/gamplan around a coin-flip ability that you can't hedge against.
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15 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:
I'm in the same boat, man. I mean I don't hate the ardboys at all, I just like the other two units much better visually. The idea of simply massing ardboys is boring to me. I like to have a nice mix of stuff. Just wish Brutes were more competitive. If anyone tries the brutefist battalion, please let us know. In the meantime, I'll continue painting them until I can make it
6 Gore Gruntas + Warchanter is one of the best/ if not the best hammers in the game right now at least
It is sad Brutes got squatted though, they're in this weird middling area where they don't hit as hard as GGs (mostly due to GGs have two attack profiles) and are much slower; with the only upside being that they're marginally tanker per point and less buff dependent.
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16 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:
Fair enough, but I guess what I am saying is that in the limited sample size of tourneys since the book came out I have yet to see many ardfist builds place well. Surely it is early goings, but it doesn't seem to be the first instinct of those placing well with Oruks. Doesn't mean it won't happen, but it hasn't yet from what I can tell. I'm not arguing it isn't a competitive threat, just that it doesn't seem to be out of balance with that presented by the ironfist, which as strong as it is has yet to put Orruks in a situation where I think most would argue serious rule changes are needed. In my opinion why fix something that has yet to present an issue? There is only anecdotal evidence thus far that this build is a problem, we have a mountain of evidence that depravity needs to be reworked as an example. I don't see value in nerfing a rule that is not currently being overused when an arguably stronger one like ironfist already exists in army.
Its still very early in the lifecycle of a book, but I think its too soon to be making changes to a rule like this. I agree that either your half-measure or the one limiting its use to units of 10+ are probably the only ones that work without rendering it competitively unusable, but it still feels too early for that to me. Yes, anecdotally it seems very strong, but our book is very strong in general, and generally you aren't going to see ardfist and ironfist in the same list its more likely going to be one or the other I think. So keeping them in line with one another is going to mean a lot for the book's internal balance but I think less towards external. I hope whatever action GW may end up taking keeps this in mind, though like you I would not be surprised if the destroy its usefulness.Yea, I'm completely with you. The trade off right now between Ironfist/'ardfist is tempo. You can really impose your will the first few turns in Ironfist (grab board control, smash off screens, having many CP in the bank for Ironsunz CA, +1 to hit, etc.)
The 'ardfist has a latter payoff, but as it stands, it's an absolutely huge pay-off (my buddy had one game where he summoned close to 1k points of 'ardboyz w/ some above-average broach rolls T2.) and it doesn't cripple the rest of your army/plan to really make it happen. You're basically playing in the same way as a conservative Ironfist+Ironsunz player (conservative in this case just meaning they're not boosting and charging their entire army T1) but with the massive summoning upside.
That said, I honestly think 'ardfist plays best in a Big Waagh! with the buffs having no proximity dependency and still having access to Might Destroyer with Brutal Cunning and Warchanters.
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2 hours ago, tripchimeras said:
In fairness I think only being able to use it once per destroyed unit also nerfs it pretty hard. It becomes extremely unreliable at that point on top of the built in unreliability factor that the ability already hinges on a singular 6 wound model in a game where character sniping is becoming increasingly common and easy.
I don't think the ability as it stands is competitively problematic to begin with so long as it must adhere to the battalion unit restrictions. To "abuse" it you basically have to build your list around that fact needing to both generate and then expend a massive number of command points very early on in the battle which has sizeable drawbacks for an army that runs on command abilities in general. Especially given that even if you manage to pump out 3-4 command points into it at a very early stage there is a non trivial chance it does very little at the expense of your entire command pool and a key strategic part of your army. Especially with the versatility and guaranteed nature of ironfist if you want any diversity in your ironjawz battalions reducing the effectiveness of ardfist is going to hurt that a lot. Not to mention that the whole premise of the "abuse" use case everyone seems to be worried about hinges on your ability to destroy a unit of 5 ardboyz quickly, when in reality doing 10 wounds to yourself is not exceedingly easy, and is going to require a full magic phase and likely taking some endless spells you very well might not have otherwise to even give yourself a chance of it. I just don't find it particularly appealing or strong, nor does it seem to have been born out as a serious concern so far in tourney play from what I can see.
The stronger play as several others have mentioned above I would think is to use it as a support threat in a non cheasy manner, supporting normal strength units of Ard Boyz with the threat hanging over your opponent of units coming into their backfield at an inopportune moment at any stage of the game. This, to be worthwhile and effective, however still requires reasonable reliability of success, which requires the ability to use it multiple times in one go to account for 50% chance of success. All of the "solutions" I have seen in the last few comments imo would make the ability non-viable competitively. Perhaps the only small tweek mentioned so far on top of battalion size limitation is to maybe prevent it from working on units of 5. This restricts the early game "cheese" we have seen associated with it, that prevent "that guy" from making a lot of casual games nightmares for ppl. But honestly I'd be fine with nothing changing unless we start seeing a lot more competitive abuses. This really does just seem like one of those rules that is terrifying on paper, but just good on the table.
No doubt what I think will happen (one use per unit that was destroyed) will be a bigger nerf than not being to summon multiple units from one destroyed unit.
I hope that's the half-measure they take, rather than basically squatting the battalion by making it one use per dead unit.
You definitely have to focus on CP generation to make the battalion work as well, but I think it's misnomer that you're investing that much to nuke your own units to get the summon off . What I've seen in practice is MSU ardboyz screening and being teleported to control board space. One of those units usually gets knocked out by turn 2 and they're dumping between 4-8 CP w/ Broach to summon 'ardboyz. It rarely limits their ability to use Mighty Destroyer, the lists are already geared to generate, preserve, or avoid using CP, so it's really not much of a sacrifice in that department.
I regularly play against guys who place in the top 20 consistently at LVO, and I'm sorry but it is a real competitive threat. Not to say the other top armies don't have some equally ridiculous things, but I don't really think there's much of argument that this is only good on paper.
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1 hour ago, DerZauberer said:
Which are limits, too. My two suggestion were just examples.
I've seen on Twitter a Tournament Pack Draft which made some heavy balancing on factions for a tournament in ireland in late january.
Its called "HERO PHASE XII"Slaanesh for example with "Double Depravity Point costs for characters" and "unit breaks free from its locust diversion after unit looses wounds, so it can act normaly after the attacking unit did all of his attacks". The fix for Ardfist in this pack was only usable once per unit and can not be used on units of 5. Another nerf was using hand of gork prohibits any movement, even movement in the hero phase.
Theres plenty of other balancing in this pack, e.g. groups of wizards can't cast endless spells (fixing pink horrors), line of sight needed for mortek crawlers etc.
Would you agree with such a heavy handed balance update?
That change pretty much kills the battalion IMO, everyone would just default back to Ironfist. I think Malakree's suggestion that you can't get multiple units from one being destroyed pretty much fixes it.
If I had to bet, I think they'll just make it so you can only use the command ability once per destroyed unit to be consistent with some of the other FAQs on similar abilities.
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4 minutes ago, MKsmash said:
1000 or even 1500 battles won't be good. You need to do 2000 point, as Seraphon will crush you always at low points with their ridiculous summoning.
Also this, summoning is really broken in lower point total games.
That, and most the suggestions you're going to get here are going to be in context of player's experience in 2k games (i.e everyone telling you to flood the board and run on objectives early is assuming you'll have enough bodies/ board coverage to make that viable).
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It's impossible to tell in a game with this many variables why you're consistently losing, but highly doubt it's because of the army match-ups (IJ actually has great tools to deal with Seraphon w/ Smashing and Bashing & Mighty Destroyers for example). I bet that if you were to switch armies before you played, the Seraphon player would probably still win the majority of his games. I was in a similar situation as your Seraphon friend with GHB 1 Ironjawz. It really didn't matter what composition I brought, as long as the army wasn't crafted explicitly to be completely, completely horrible; I would win 85% of the time in my small group.
A few people started complaining about IJ so much (usually coupled with how under-powered their army is), that I actually did offer to switch armies with anyone I played against, which most refused to do for a multitude of reasons. The chief reason being "I want to win with my own army" which I completely empathize with, but I also think there was a sub-conscious motivation to not take me up on the offer because it would demolish the narrative they built about why they were losing.You have the right mentality though, and I would just ask the Seraphon player to narrate his decision making process and co-pilot your army the next few times you play against him. Most good spirited competitive players like to raise the play-level of the people they play with , and would be more than willing to help their buddies if you just let him know the situation.
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Is everyone playing 'ardfist that you can spend as many CP as you want and summon as many 'ardboyz as you have successes?
Tom from Warhammer Weekly made a comment that they've ruled in other books that anything that requires a trigger/condition in order to use a CP has been ruled that you can only respond once to that trigger/condition and specifically called out 'ardfist players for abusing this before the F.A.QPersonally, I've been absolutely wrecking with this, but it's obviously contingent on being able to use multiple CP to summon 'ardboyz after a teleport/ dying as a screen.
SpoilerAllegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Dead Kunnin'
- Artefact: Shamanic Skullcape
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
Ardfist (120)
Scuttletide (30)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 153I'm not big on the Brutes, but I wanted everything else exactly as is and that leaves 280 points leftover. I don't own enough 'ardboyz to include 15 more with how many I typically spawn throughout the game, and Brutes aren't exactly terrible ....
Edit* I've also ran this as Ironsunz, probably depends on your meta/terrain whether you're extremely worried about your warchanter getting sniped and want to hedge against at the expense of aetherquartz. The charge in your opponents phase is really good if you failed the teleport and your opponent is actively avoid the 3 intial 'ardboyz units.
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Ok boys, I've been off the forum/youtube in the wake of the book release because I didn't want to fall into the group-think. I finally got around to crunching some numbers and got some games in and have some thoughts.
So first list is:
SpoilerAllegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Artefact: Great Green Visions
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
Ironfist (160)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138
I'm guessing most people have built some variation of this list, but it has the tools for every situation. The small GG units are there to pin and destroy screens, and even if there isn't a need for that in a game, they're good buff sponges along with the 5 brutes if your hammers are out of range or dead in the late game.
If your opponent makes a mistake or skimped on adequate screening the MK and 6-GG unit w/ Warchanter destroy just about everything now. I don't miss Waaagh! at all, Warchanter buffs more than compensate and it plays into the "waves" approach rather than "I need to optimize this one combat round" which meant a lot of all-in plays and hoping for double-turns.
The MK is an absolute damage sponge, very rarely is it efficient for your enemy to take him down. The item/command traits are p. flexible too. I ran one game with ethereal amulet and Brutish Cunning instead, opting to drop the Ironfist because of the overlap with Brutish Cunning. Think their might be an argument for mean'un and using ignax/mirrored instead though. All said, really like there's a lot of ways to put together a viable boss.In essence though, with this list you basically keep good spacing, and line-up favorable trades with extremely fast Mighty Destroyer'd /Warchanter buffed units.
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I'm also working on 'ardfist list but I keep waffling on the hero set-up and whether to go the Choppas Warclan or not. I havn't got to try out the two list variations I'm thinking about (it's definitely a "feels-bad" list, so it might have to wait for a tourney) but it seems like a no-brainer for our most competitive option. Sure, it probably is going to face some very specific match-ups/terrain set-ups where you can't hide your foot heroes... but under most circumstances it's going to be impossible to grind through that many 'ardboyz. Especially 'ardboyz that can punch back w/ Warchanter.
Anyway, I have a lot of pages to sift though since the book release! Just my two cents.
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For the most part I like it. Mostly because it leaves the "window of hope" open longer. There's obviously a break-point in every game where even with incredible luck there's no coming back, but initiative roll-offs keep the losing player engaged in the game for much longer rather than disengaging because there's no "catch-up" mechanic.
On the flip-side, I've recently been having a ton of negative play experiences where in a close game the ENTIRE game comes down to an initiative roll-off. This can happen as early as T2 or T3 in a lot of cases. It doesn't help that at higher levels of play, the lists are so finely tuned that they can capitalize on a double-turn so well that the games pretty much over.
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15 hours ago, VonSmall said:
I had added the extra 10 Ard boys in rather than a 4th unit of GG for objective holding as well as to boost the cast/unbind of the shaman. In just about every game you'll have an objective you just sit on and 20 wounds seemed better than the 15 from GG. Alternatively you cap it with the shaman and use the Ard Boyz to screen teleport/reinforcements (can 10 are boys cover more ground than 3 GG or is it about the same?)
I could see going something like 30 x 'ardboyz, 10x 'ardboyz, 10x 'ardboyz, 3x GG, 3x GG being optimal. My thought process behind the 4x3GGs is they can spread for objectives and still have the speed to consolidate on the Waaagh! bomb turn/turns, but I could see having some more bodies for objectives, board coverage, and shaman buff could be better.
14 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:Did you feel the Brutes upgrades were worth it (aside from rule of cool) compared to arboyz or would you have rather had a CP in retrospect? Do you think you get more value out of the fungoid and the potential for a mystic shield on the ardboyz or a 2nd warchanter for the 2+ to hit when they go in? I am genuinely on the fence so actually interested in your perspective.
4Mixed feelings on the Brutes... I don't think they're a bad choice but I'm probably switching them out for 'ardboyz and buying a CP. The Brutes really do shine in the later turns after Waaagh! bomb, having a unit that can dish out respectable damage with only 1 or 2 Waaaghs does have value, but I think of them as a "win more" option; most games are going to be decided before the Brutes get involved (There are some notable exceptions. For example, against Idoneth alpha-strike they're obviously beasts). I've written at about this at length but I generally value bodies, speed, and survivability over damage output when considering IJ units.
On the second point, iI would also take the Fungoid over the second warchanter. It's not just mystic shield(which is great), but also the CP generation. You're going to get a lot more damage output from an extra 2.5 CP over 5 turns than +1 hit over 5 turns. If you're playing with realm spells, it goes further in favor of the fungoid.-
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17 minutes ago, broche said:
@Andrew G nice work! My current list is almost the same as your Ironsunz, i just did not decide on trait yet, but i'll probably go with Mirrored Cuirass for MW protection. Do you think Ironclad is still worth it considering Fungoid is likely to cast mystic shield on Krusha anyway?
I think I'm just going to go the MK loadout from the Bloodtoofs list from here out, so Prophet/Cuirass.
That said, I think Ironclad still has use. I'm throwing mystic shield on the 'ardboyz the first turn or two in most cases, so Ironclad will definitely net some value.
If I was in a shooting heavy meta I'd probably go Ironclad, or even consider dropping Hysh for an Ethereal Amulet+Ironclad. -
Played 3 games over the weekend with the new GHB. I decided to go with more balanced lists, as I tend to gravitate to the skew battalions for competitive play (Gorefist, 'ardfist, ), and wanted to give the Megabattalions a fair shake.
Lists:
SpoilerAllegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Live to Fight
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Spell: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (420)
- 20x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 10x Big Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Ironfist (160)
Ironsunz (80)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150
SpoilerAllegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Spell: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (420)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Ironfist (160)
Bloodtoofs (80)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150
Not much of a difference between the two, the Ironsunz one obviously is a little more geared towards having an extremely scary MK in and outside the Waaagh! round. The Bloodtoofs is more geared for a traditional Waaagh! Bomb and keeping the MK in the back for an additional turn or two.
Won all three games (Double Keeper Slaneesh, Mixed GG list: big units of bounderz and stabberz w/ supporting pieces, and finally a Blisterkin list ... I'm guessing he's preparing for the Gristlegore nerf in July.) Anyway, I had a few takeaways.1: The 30 'ardboy pin w/ Ironsunz is extremely strong. I'm still experimenting with exactly how much I can safely engage, but in every game I was able to clear 2+ chaff screens and lock in a scary horde by piling barely within 3".
2: I still think it's necessary to put a MW save item on the MK. The offensive loadout I went with in the Ironsunz build was complete overkill, I don't think I even needed to swing w/ the fists or tail once. On the other hand, I was constantly worried about the MK going down to MW in each game I played with Ironsunz, and the lists I played against weren't even particularly geared for MW output.3: As I anticipated, I used Mighty Destroyers once over the course of the three games, and overall think it's a slight nerf in the context of the way I play the game. The guaranteed movement is nice in some cases, but most of the lists I ran had an 80% to 90% chance of activating Mighty Destroyers once during the round. Going from an 80% chance but free, to a 100% chance but costing 1 cp is a slight nerf to me. I know I'm completing discounting the ability to pile-in and attack in the hero, but with Warchanter/Waaagh! having no effect in the hero phase extremely limits its offensive usage. All-in-All, it's still a great ability that can win you games but it's annoying siphoning resources away from Waaagh!
Anyway, going to a local tournament next weekend and I'm thinking about bringing a 'ardfist list I've been working on. Haven't locked down the details, but I'm anticipating a bunch of Skaven/FEC players going out for one last round before the July FAQ. The only real solution I've found against them is just to send meat at them and hope they make a mistake... I'll need some luck.
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@Malakree Ahhh, ok. I already outlined in the first paragraph of the last post why I don't think it's a good trade, but at least I can follow your logic now.
If you're going to pursue that strategy I think you would be much better served by a 'ardfist w/ cogs list. Basically do exactly what you're planning on doing now, but going into T2 ( or T3 if by some miracle you 'ardboyz survive T1) you can just rinse and repeat with another 30 'ardboyz teleported in front of the opponent.-
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37 hours ago, Malakree said:
Wait are we talking about giving up priority turn 1 or taking it? Honestly in that situation I'd give up the double turn in favour of getting the counter punch off at the bottom of turn 2 with the Waaagh! bomb. The 30 Ardboys are 100% expendable.
If they're going around your Ardboys on Turn 2 then you've done something wrong haha.
You're going to take bottom of 1. Taking top of 1 and teleporting the 'ardboyz just allows the opposing player to deal with them in their turn 1, freeing them completely going into T2 priority roll. Losing ~1/4th of your army for 1 turn of objectives (if there's no middle objectives T1 this is even worse) and killing off a screen is not a good exchange...
Lets assume you planned on taking bottom of T1, if you won the priority roll and choose to go second in T2... Sure, it's not the end of the world, the 'ardboyz are
"expendable" (funny perspective to have with a 420 point unit) but they're definitely not netting as much value or helping the pin to the same degree. The opponent is going to clear the 'ardboyz (let's assume you perfectly boxed in his army and he wasn't able to wittle enough down to slip around the unit), where does that leave you going into IJ T2? Like you mentioned, your army is mostly spread to deny hand of gork/deepstrike so you're really not in position for a devastating Waaagh! bomb and you've been admittingly spending CP on reroll 1's to save anyway. Not taking priority T2 doesn't accomplish anything, it's not unsalvagable position, but it's definitely the worse option.
Let's just compare expected board-states going into T3 priority roll:Taking priority T2:
You've waaagh bombed w/ your 30 'ardboyz alive. You've probably cleared most of a 60 stabbas block, the other block was forced to deal with the 'ardboyz. Rest of your army is healthy, unengaged, and poised to capitalize on T3.
Choosing to give opponent priority T2:
You've lost the 30 'ardboyz top of T2, they probably weren't able to attack back. You waagh! bomb and send in... I'm guessing a few GGs, maybe the MK... remember your army is spread to deny hand of gork and you've been spending CP on reroll 1's to save; blunting the Waaagh! bomb. You'll be lucky to kill one of the 60 stabba blocks, and that's only if you commit the MK. Half the arrmy is probably locked down at this point and took damage in return (you're not going to be able to activate smashing and bashing.)
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5 hours ago, Malakree said:
The point of the list is less to actually Waaagh! bomb your opponent and more to control the entire board and win on objectives. If you stop all sorts of teleport shenanigans then it cripples a whole ton of armies.
Eh tbh I view Ironjawz offensive potential as garbage. If you're going to win you need to do it outside of the combat phase because basically all combat armies will eat you. This is especially true since none of our buffs apply during a hero phase activation so you're just flailing uselessly or getting dominated by the activation wars...
If you're trying to Waaagh! bomb my Gloomspite army I'd just laugh as you sink it all into grots...
@Rock Lobster pretty much already answered. The Waaagh! bomb is to help the board control/pin with the upside of the ability to table w/ good aetherquartz and/or prophet rolls.
I play GG too, and I would laugh my ass off if an IJ player took out my screens T1, won initiative going into T2 w/ CP in the bank and charges against my 60 stabba blocks and decided to use his CP to reroll 1's to save/ instead of Waaagh dump into the stabbers (which are at best -1 to hit in this scenario, if the IJ player takes the bottom of 1 he isn't going be in range to Itchy Nuisance/Geminids/Palisade debuff the 'ardboyz.) If you leave a 30 block entirely within 12" of the webspinner w/ sneaky distraction you're an idiot.
So, one scenario (Waagh! dump) leaves me as the GG player with a severely weakened stabber block, forcing me to use the remaining one to deal with the '30 ardboyz surrounding the remaints of my army. The other scenario leaves me with an entirely healthy stabba block, who's bonus to wound is going outweigh any survivability benefit the 'ardboyz received from reroll 1's. Basically, not waaagh! bombing allows them to escape the pin much,much easier. It's a pretty clear cut choice.
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2 hours ago, Malakree said:
Honestly this is the only strategy I think can be used to actually win games. You don't need cogs etc.
Hand of gork a block of 30, Ironfist for an extra d6" movement and you have a minimum 8" charge on +3, use it with bloodtoofs/Ironsunz, take first turn and pin him into his deployment zone with 60 wounds on a 4+ save.
Aim being to just erect a 9" bubble across the entire board and stop your opponent doing any sort of deepstriking/teleporting to get out of his deployment zone then win on objectives. Especially since you can now spend a CP to RR1's to save on a unit.
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (420)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (140)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Battalions
Ironfist (160)
Bloodtoofs (80)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Wounds: 176This is a great list, really plays to what I think is good in IJ. This is basically what I was doing with the gorefist last GHB too, 1st turn pin w/ a bunch of 4+ save wounds with the ability to table if you win the initiative going into t2. I'd still bank all the CP for Waaagh! T2 and Battleshock Immunity T1 for the 30' ardboyz but that's just nitpicking.
Anyway, A+
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1 hour ago, broche said:
What is the change to Command point?
Arboys at 140 is absolute bargain
I heard you can only purchase 1CP through cutting points. 'ardboyz change is big, definitely going to be the backbone of most lists.
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20 hours ago, Andrew G said:
I'm going to a tourney June 30th, which is absolutely perfect as I'll be able to utilize the IJ point drops without having to use the early July FAQ where I'm assuming Fungoids are going to 100 or 110.
41 hour ago, Malakithe said:You better hope your tourney is before july cuz there isnt a snow balls chance in the warp the Fungoid is staying at 90. 110 is probably what he will be if not 120pts based on all the caster increases im seeing
Way ahead of you...
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1 minute ago, Scurvydog said:
In your hero phase.
But it opens a lot of shenanigans. Nothing stops you from doing a teleport hand of gork, then use the ironfist d6 move, as that just happens in the hero phase and does not specify when. If heroes are nearby you can then use CP to charge in, and another to fight if you wanted to, getting for example a unit of brutes to cross the board and hit things in the hero phase turn 1.
Can't target the same unit to be affected by Mighty Destroyers, so all the strategies being posted revolving around teleporting huge blocks of units and spending two CP to get that unit to fight in the hero phase are not going to work.
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First draft of the tourney list:
Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh!
- Artefact: The Golden Toof
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
Ardfist (170)
Total: 2130 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 179
I didn't bother adjusting the points, but it will equal 2k after the GHB drops. This is definitely the slow and plodding IJ list, bubble wrap army with a couple 'ardboyz and use the first turn to take up board real estate. You're hiding the chanter, with the goal of teleporting him with the weirdnob to an advantageous position before you use the recycle.
This has the CP regen to effectively Waaagh bomb and is resilient enough to weather the storm until it can get into position. You have a couple of techie units in Brutes&GGs: Brutes to concentrate more punch on a smaller combat frontage and and the GGs to operate independently (probably shooting up the opponents weakside board edge to threaten small units/ foot heroes hanging back on objectives).
Big sacrifice here was dropping the MK, but the ironclad change really,really hurt the MK. You can compensate with some of the artifacts, but I think @Malakree is right in that aetherquartz is still the engine that makes the list run which locks you into Hysh.
Also, probably a controversial opinion, but the new mighty destroyer change is actually a slight nerf in my eyes. The opportunity cost of spending a CP for mighty destroyers is too high when Waaagh! exists. There will be very situational uses where it's better, but I'm guessing there's going to a lot of games where I don't use it one time.
If you're trying to Waaagh! bomb my Gloomspite army I'd just laugh as you sink it all into grots...
AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Ardfist (120)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 158
I could drop 5'ardboyz to fit in some techy stuff like balewind/portal but it has been serving me well so far. I'm not usually using Zap Em! until turn 2 at the earliest anyway to secure the +1 hit +1 wound and 6+FnP. Which usually allows my Wurgogg to close into range before I start unleashing +3 or +4 to cast (if they have 2 monsters within 24") spells.
I've considered adding a wardock as well to add another +1, but the wizards are really not the driving force of the army and I don't want to give up any of my existing hero slots to fit him in.