Andrew G

Here you go. Not much has changed on any of them since late October. I have experimented with swapping a Warchanter out for a Fungoid w/ realm rules becoming more common place, but I'm still not convinced it's worth it with Sacrement being so popular.

I already did here, do you mean on honest wargamer? I'll consider doing a write-up, I feel like a lot people don't understand how to play gorefist properly and just think "Oh, it's 1 trick alphastrike. No big deal". When the reality of it is I'm committing my Waaghs and hammers T2 against good players 90% of the time.

Pretty much exactly the same as my Bloodtoofs list I posted a few months ago. The only difference is I run 2x5 brutes and 1 unit of 30 'ardboyz, everything else is EXACTLY the same. I definitely feel that something approximating this is the strongest Bloodtoofs list available at the moment. I'm still a fan of my Gorefist list, and feel like it's stronger than Bloodtoofs, but I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to shell out for 7 boxs of gruntas and this list is a really solid alternative. edited* for page stretch

I've actually been experimenting with this basic idea, Gorefist first wave w/ Brute second wave. Bigger Brute unit to leverage rampaging destroyer and just speed boost the hell out of the unit so it's actually in position to engage T2. Think this idea might actually have some gas.

4", you can still pile-in even if there's not an enemy unit within 3" the turn you charge. Tabled a lot of guys who make this mistake. Good screening does kill the T1 alpha strike, but against perfect screening you just play traditional Alphastrikes like any other combat IJ list, i.e the "waves" approach. Force them to go first, use just enough units/waaagh to effectively take down those screens, hedge against the double turn by keeping the Waaagh Sources/Hammers safe, but really just pray for double turn and and that you have enough CP left to actually kill the important stuff in T2. If you don't get the T2 initiative, hope your durable first wave of units ties up enough to allow the Waaagh! Sources/Hammers to survive. Not arguing that if a Gorefist player just commits every unit to a screen that's positioned correctly and blows all his CP that he'll lose, but I honestly feel like it currently has the best chance vs. Sacrament played correctly. I could argue it's an 'ardfist, but in my experience it's a tougher matchup. Do agree with the SCE/ Deepkin part though, honestly think deepstrike armies are a much harder counter than Death/ DoK, at least for the lists I play.

Welcome back into the fold! You're never going to get a complete consensus on what's the "best list", but I can tell you for sure that it isn't anything close to the one you posted. Best showing I've seen recently from IJ was at SoCal Open with a double Mawkrusher Gorefist. Personally, I switch between a Gorefist an a 'ardfist when I'm playing competitively. That said, most people don't have the models to run a good Gorefist/'ardfist, so there's still plenty of people experimenting with Bloodtoofs/Ironfists. A couple of things I'd consider changing if you're looking to make a better Bloodtoofs list. -112 wounds is way too low for an IJ list. Especially one that can't reliably alphastrike. You're overspending on characters. - No Mortal Wound save on the Mawkrusher. - Footboss can't keep up the rest of the army. You pretty much have to take thermalrider if you're using a footboss as a back-up Waaagh! source. - 2 Warchanters, but every troop is min sized. Only 1 of the Warchanters is going to net any real value by buffing the Mawkrusher. Consider dropping one, or if you're going to keep 2, bring at least one 2x strength unit to be a buff sponge for the second chanter. - Reconsider Cogs, it doesn't make you fast enough to T1 charge, and the army is already fast enough to reliably charge T2 without it. The only thing it's really doing in this list is making it easier for enemy deepstrikers to charge the turn they land. That, and it's pretty risky tying in a 60 point spell to a single 4 wound wizard.

Lost my first game yesterday with the Gorefist list I posted a while back. I'd figure a Sacrosanct, DoK, Sequitor/Evoc spammer would get me eventually, but it was freaking TZEENTCH who I thought were pretty much done as an army. These new Enlightened are just so damn good at 140 though. His list was basically:Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)Tzaangor Shaman (180)Lord Of Change (380)10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (280)9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (420)Balewind Vortex (40)Umbral Spellportal (60)Total: 1980 / 2000Wounds: 125 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Scenario: Comets drop at the beginning of 2nd battle round in each deployment zone. Score points based off of current battle round #. Deployment: He castles his entire army between two tall pieces of terrain in the corner, puts his acolyte screens/pinks in a semi-circle around the rest of his units making sure the Enlightened and characters were at least 4" away from the front of the screens. Smart play, but it's pretty much what everyone has been doing vs. this list the last few months and I've been able to play around it. I do notice that he's just at that 4" mark with one of the blocks of Enlightened, so if my Mawkrusher destructive bulk/shooting clears up the majority of one of the acolyte screens I should be fine. T1 IJ: Gorefist moves up, get one rampaging off that I have to use on the Mawkrusher. Used 5cp on Waaagh, thinking broach would proc once or twice and I could save that CP for a charge reroll, no 5+'s so I'm screwed there. My two 6 Gore units w/ frenzy of violence are going to have to make 9" charges w/o reroll because of these two huge pieces of terrain he's used to anchor his flanks. Of course everything gets in besides the two units of 6 ggs. Mawkrusher does his work with shooting/destructive bulk to open up enough room for a GG unit to charge though the gap. In the combat phase I kill all the acolytes, the pinks, and the unit of 6 enlightened before he swings. All he has left are the characters and the unit of 9 enlightened. Pretty much thought it was game at this point; I have complete board control, have taken 0 damage, and have his entire army pretty much pinned. T1 Tzeentch: We were playing on realm of life, and there's a spell that allows him to relocate his caster 18". So he's able to use that to pop his LoC into the corner of the board, giving him barely enough room to actually summon w/ his blue horror points. He nukes my Mawcrusher w/ all the spells, suffering 11 mortal wounds(only got 1 cuirass save). The9 enlightened pop the unit of 6GGs on the flank. -Comets drop. One lands in the corner where his LoC and Blue horrors are, the other lands caddy corner, the only sector I didn't have a warchanter covering the backline. Perfect drops for my opponent, if either comet landed in a different sector I think I would have won. T2 Tzeentch: Priority roll was obvious huge here, and he was able to relocate the gaunt summoner now w/ the same realm spell into the corner with the LoC and Blue Screen. He kills the Mawkrusher with a few spells, and then wipes out another block of 3ggs with an enlightened charge. So all I have left at this point are 2x3ggs, 1x6ggs, and 3 warchanters. Which in most circumstances would be enough to bog him down long enough to win the objective game, but I'm behind because of where they dropped, so I have to take the objective in the corner of his deployment zone for at least 1 round to win. T2 IJ: The GGs left are the furthest away from his new castle in the corner, and the only viable charge is into the Shaman and the Enlightened. Kill the shaman which I thought would get rid of unfold reality but he also has it on the Gaunt unfortunately, can't kill the enlightened and the 4 surviving enlightened end up forcing a battleshock test on the unit of 6ggs which kills off the unit ( 3 ended up running). T3 IJ: Still bogged down with enlightened with 2x3ggs. End up kill off the Enlightened T3 Tzeentch: Starts nuking the GGs, summons more blues. I end up calling it here, he had enough blues at this point to pretty much ensure I'd never be able to get the point off him. Tough loss, but definitely a few things I could have done differently. Not saving 1 cp for charge reroll was greedy, probably should have gone second against his army even with spell portal. Just fed him too many bluepoints too early, and didn't account for the realm of life relocation spell giving him the space to actually summon.

IJ gets hit harder than almost any other army when playing at lower than 2k. ( The way waaagh works, battalion pricing, etc.) That said, the key to lower point games with IJ is to bring MSU troops and minimum supporting units IMO. So, something like the list Superninja posted: a couple of Waaagh sources and maybe a warchanter, fill out the rest with MSU troops for easier Waaagh!s and/or the ability to spread for objectives. If you brought a warchanter, I'd probably take 1 larger unit (20 'ardboyz works nice) just to be the sponge for Frenzy of Violence so you actually net some real value from it. There's no sugarcoating it though, if you're playing IJ at this point it's for the uphill battles

Assuming there's no changes to Waaagh! stacking (sifting through the GHB 2019 suggestions, there seems to be a pretty big push to eliminate it. Hopefully GW has better sense.) Mawkrusher- 420 All battalions- Reduce by 20 points. GGs- Charge rolls of 8+ trigger the hooves d3 damage. Either that, or nerf their equivalents(enlightened, eels, skullcrushers) significantly. 'ardboyz- 160/420 Brutes- I don't like dropping them to 160. Rather have a tweak to make them worth 180. The new bravery artifacts help a lot, but the opportunity cost is too high with broach,ignax/cuirass, thermalrider being so valuable to our army. If the MK becomes cheaper, maybe change the ability on the Footboss to grant battleshock immunity/+ Bravery to Brutes within 6" along with the reroll 1's. Makes the choice between MK, Footboss, Banner at little bit harder and helps Brutes out at the 180 price point. Anyway, this is always hard to do without knowing the changes their making to the current top armies.

Can I get a reference for the "trigger window" ruling? I noticed the FAQ on 'ardfist doesn't specify a phase for the abilities' usage, but I've just assumed that means it's hero phase only. Assuming we can use the ability in the movement/charge phase, I completely agree that thermalrider's value shoots way up. It would definitely make me consider a 2k list wwith thermalrider/ignax scales over the 1900 Broach/Cuirass list I'm currently running. That said, I still think broach+prophet is superior in an 'ardfist. To answer your question directly, is the two extra waaghs on turn 3 worth it in the scenario outlined? Yea, absolutely worth it, especially considering each Waagh has a roughly 30% chance of generating an extra attack w/ prophet. It's going to allow you to space out your Waaghs, get through anvils/screens in a single turn, and still have the juice to deal with everything else afterwards. I find that 'ardfist without broach+prophet just gets hungup on troops too long before their heroes get mortal wounded to death.

I would consider it if I could just straight swap one of the goregrunta units. The 5 battline requirement for Bloodtoofs, needing the horde discount on the 'ardboyz, and losing 1 drop isn't worth IMO.

I just kind of wanted to throw it in there as an example of a "good" bloodtoofs list. I usually play it against the non-tourney guys in my group; losing T1 or summoning 300+ points of 'ardboyz back on the board leaves a sour taste in their mouth. That said, merits of Bloodtoofs is it makes Brutes playable without having to grab Bravery artifacts. I was running no battalion for a while, but because of the scenarios that require wizards/artifact heroes to capture I had to readjust. If I'm trying to actually compete I bring Gorefist, or the 'ardfist list. Also keep off the 100 points IMO. Also go 2x5 with the Brutes and combine 2 of the 'ardboyz into a unit of 20. You can't run units of 10 Brutes without Bloodtoofs, Bravery artifacts, or using CP. I find the artifacts/CP too valuable, not to mention Waagh! scales way better with MSU brutes compared to larger units of them.

Here's the 3 I've been playing @broche. Sorry for the page stretch, couldn't figure out how to get spoilers to work. Allegiance: DestructionMortal Realm: HyshMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! - Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Warchanter (80)6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)Gorefist (190)Total: 1850 / 2000Extra Command Points: 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 137 -------------------------------------------------------------- Allegiance: DestructionMortal Realm: HyshMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! - Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (80)20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)Ardfist (170)Total: 1890 / 2000Extra Command Points: 3Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 166 --------------------------------------------------------------- Allegiance: DestructionMortal Realm: HyshMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! - Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Lens of Refraction 30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)Bloodtoofs (120)Ironfist (180)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 146

Mileage may vary with this, but I haven't lost with IJ in my last 15 games, and my local group has 10+ people who regularly attend GTs and place well. 3 of those games were in a 20 person local tourney that I won. I've beaten all current power builds (60-90 witchelf DoK, Idoneth Eel Spam, LoN with 2x30 Grimghast reapers with 1 cp respawns,Stormcast Sequitor/Evocator spam, Nurgle). All that to say, I'm not just bashing noobs and now trying to give advice to my fellow IJ players! Here's my list of pitfalls I think IJ players fall into though. 1). Overspending on characters- First thing I look at in any IJ list is wound count, and if you're sitting below 140ish wounds, you're most likely overspending on characters. Every IJ build besides Gorefist functions best as a counter punch build (against good players even Gorefist is pretty much a counter punch build), meaning you need the raw Wounds in your list be able to saturate the board and absorb charges. 2). Bloodtoofs- It's really obvious to me why 70% of the lists I see posted here and in the Facebook groups I follow are Bloodtoofs. It requires the lowest model count, and it offers a "balanced" playstyle between Gorefist and defensive wound per point lists. The problem is, straddling that middle area just leaves you with a list that really isn't good at anything. It's too thin to be able to absorb charges and punch back, and too slow to threaten alpha strikes. 3) Magic investment- I'm excluding fungoid generals here, because the command ability actually has a lot of value, but I really question the addition of magic into any list that where it isn't the main focal point. There's just soooo many armies that can bully you in the Magic phase, that casaul 80-240 point investment into a caster+ endless spell is rarely going to recoup its value compared to an equal investment in troops or warchanters. This point I'm fully willing to admit might be based on my local meta, but in about 80% of my games the only value I netted out of my fungoid or Weirdnob is turn 1 mystic shield before enemy dispellers get in range and shut him down. Now, if you're a complete powergamer looking to win a GT, would I recommend you bring IJ? Definitely not, there's better armies out there that are way more consistent and forgiving, but you can definitely be successful with them and compete against top tier builds.

It's way more than that. You have to account for those extra CP generated also being affected by broach, it maths out to about 1.45 CP for each CP used (just accounting for broach at this point). Prophet of the Waaagh gives you roughly a 30% compared to 16.6% chance of generating an extra attack per CP. So it's something close to 1.9 extra attacks per 1 CP used.

Yea, exactly right on the thought process of playing Gorefist. IMO regular Mawcrusher with the Aetherquartz/Prophet of Waaagh CP engine is just strictly better though. It allows you to throw Mirrored Cuirass on the MawKrusher which makes him way more survivable than Big G, allows you to space out your Waaagh! usage in case of effective screening (cheap screens across his entire army frontage w/ units more than 4" away), and you don't have any " Screen is too tough to kill moments" anymore because you can generate an extra 10+ extra attacks on the first turn.

1) Yes, you can move the unit again later in the Move phase 2) The benefit is you can pile-in twice. Mighty Destroyers doesn't restrict the normal Combat phase pile-in. 3) The only real benefit here is on the Mawkrusher w/ his Destructive Bulk ability. If you're lucky you can clear a low wound unit with Destructive Bulk in the Hero phase, still move in the Move phase (assuming you killed off the unit), and repeat the process in the Charge phase. 4) Yep, that's exactly what Smash and Bash offers.

I don't think it matters how many times you or I repeat this ?. Think it's why you're seeing more and more players just going generic destruction or bonesplitterz and focusing on wound per point lists and board coverage (look at facehammer results).

I recently dropped both battalions from my lists and win % has skyrocketed since. My original frustrated rationale was something along the lines of, " If I'm going to be engaging turn 2 anway, why am I spending 300 points for mostly speed increases I don't need." I do miss the extra CP, bravery, artifacts sometimes, but effectively having two extra units on the board has just proved more useful for me in most matchups. I've also been messing around with gorefist, and I actually think it's extremely viable even if your opponent screens well first turn. You don't actually need to fully commit to alpha-striking, you can spend a turn or two clearing chaff and grabbing objectives before you go for the killing blow on the important pieces. It just adds the ability to end a lot of games turn 1 if they don't screen almost perfectly , and sometimes the opponents armies just don't have the tools to deal with it even if they're fully aware it's coming. Admittingly, it is a little beefier than other gorefist lists I see shared (137 wounds) which might be influencing my perception that it doesn't necessarily collapse if you don't cripple the opponent's army turn 1. Still slightly favoring no battalions, mostly because it's more fun to play, but I also think it suffers less in the event of a bad match-ups but I need to play a little more with gorefist to definitely determine that. List for those interested. Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: HyshMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! - Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Warchanter (80)6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)Gorefist (190)Total: 1850 / 2000Extra Command Points: 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 137 --------- If we used the realm spells regularly 1 or 2 of those warchanters would be swapped for fungoids.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing. The list I was reviewing has 5 min size units of troops, the only way you can make a list function that light on troops is to go alphastrike IMO (probably resulting in 4-2/ 3-2 like you mentioned). My other suggestion was to actually do what both of you are suggesting and lean into more bodies/wounds... which I think is what both you guys are advocating for if I'm not mistaken?

When I mentioned leaning into the bodies/wounds approach it doesn't necessarily need to default to 'ardfist. You can build some pretty meaty ironfists/bloodtoofs lists that can absorb alphastrikes. Like I said though, 380 point buy-in to spell casting on top of 300 points on the battalions is going to leave you too thin to absorb a punch against the armies I listed. If you are going to go that thin on troops you need to be the army that's picking engagements and leveraging Smashing and Bashing to avoid getting hit. The only way to guarantee that happens is leaning more into more speed and lowerdrop counts (gorefist/ bloodtoofs-cogs). Going entirely in the other direction. I actually like the dual shamans, I just think they're better placed is meatier list that actually can maintain the +2 to cast and can grind long enough to actually get some solid value out of the those endless spells.

First impressions is you're spending too many points on non-wound models in a list that can't effectively alpha strike. In a lot of matchups (Idoneth eels, stormcast deepstrike lists, DoK w/ cogs, LoN/NH grimgasts, etc.) your opponent is going to be picking the engagements and you don't have enough wounds to absorb the punch and counterpunch yourself. I don't think the shamans are going to be able to do enough work in the first few turns to justify a 380 point buy-in to spells. It's also very unlikely you keep the +2 cast for more than a turn w/ this list, which you absolutely need to maintain to justify taking that many endless spells IMO. I would either lean into a high/bodies wound approach backed by the shamans/endless spells, or just commit to the alphastrike and go gorefist or bloodtoofs/ cogs with mostly gruntas.

I think Malakree was accounting for the possibility of rolling a 6's on the Waaagh check and using aethquartz broach artifact (every time you use a command point on a 5+, you receive another CP). Let s say you turn 2 charge with Bloodtoofs, you're sitting on 4 cp, you'll gain an additional 1-2 CP from broach, and out of those 5-6 spent CP you'll most likely get a single roll of a 6' on the Waaagh! check. So, we're looking at around 6 extra attacks per weapon on average dice.

Trying to think outside the box a bit. I keep defaulting to variants of Mawcrusher+ Ironfist everytime I try to build a list. Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: HyshOrruk Megaboss (140)- General- Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: The Golden Toof Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)Orruk Warboss (140)- Great Waaagh Banner- Allies30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)Ironfist (180)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 140 / 400Wounds: 181 The whole list should still be able to close by turn 2, possibly with 3 CP in the bank and Broach. 'ardboyz are deployed on the flanks stretched to the center to receive Waaghs, banner, chanter buffs . I'm a little worried about the warboss/megaboss being sniped early, but if I notice it's a recurring problem I've thought of some contingency lists that will hopefully keep them alive long enough to at least Waaagh dump turn 2 ( variants with Palisade, defensive artifact on MB, warchanter general w/ prophet of waaagh, a few others). What do you guys think?

Unfortunately, leaders don't fit in the Ironfist, it's just your battleline.