Andrew G

It's units with 2 or more models.

This is actually way better than I anticipated. The upcoming command point change ruined my gorefist, but most of my counterpunch lists got 100+ points cheaper. I'm going to a tourney June 30th, which is absolutely perfect as I'll be able to utilize the IJ point drops without having to use the early July FAQ where I'm assuming Fungoids are going to 100 or 110.

Good to hear about your continued success. Definitely tone it down a bit for friendly games, having your entire army smash n' bashed through because you made a few deployment mistakes definitely doesn't feel good. I had to stop playing my Gorefist for pick-up games, even against experience opponents who were just unfamiliar with the list just because the game basically boiled down to "Did my opponent make a deployment error?" If YES - IJ win 1st/2nd turn, if NO - we could actually start playing the game. Which ultimately isn't very fun for casual players or opponents with little experience against the army.

What I think will happen with this next GHB: two or three 10 to 20 point drops. Probably the MK, Big G, and a few battalions. What I think should happen: probably worth prefacing that I'm looking to make as small a change as possible, I'm anticipating a new book, and I'm assuming the best armies/units get brought down a bit. Goregruntas changed to "hooves do d3 damage on 8+ charge rolls" 'ardboyz: drop to 150/400 Footboss: passive battleshock immunity within 12" for Brute units. Brutes: 160 MK: 400 Big G: 440 Weirdnob: 80 points (he would seriously have to be cheaper than a fungoid for me to consider taking him at this point). Alternatively, my fun answer would be "If the Weirdnob casts a spell, he gets a free attempt casting foot of gork." All battalions drop 20 points ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is me being conservative as well, in totality we're looking at maybe an extra battleline unit in point drops, useable brutes, and GGs that are still inferior to most heavy cavalry in the game even after the change. Hardly going to shock the top tier armies, and it would actually allow us to decently compete and even win 5 game tournaments until the book drops.

As someone who owns close to 15k points of old O&G models fully painted ( I wish I was exaggerating), I've tried to mixed list work quite a few times. Unfortunately, 95% of the old range isn't competitively priced and the way IJ Waaagh works encourages you to bring more IJ units rather than bring in other factions. To justify taking a non-IJ unit, it needs to add something extremely valuable to the army (fungoid/ banner boss are the only real examples I can think of). It just makes more sense to lean into our armies only strength (Waaagh! bomb) than to try fit in over-costed pieces that don't synergize with the rest of the army. In the beginning of this GHB, a lot of people including myself were running lists where all the CP was funneled through the banner bosses and wyvern boss. I played probably half a dozen games using that concept in mixed Orruk/IJ lists and came to the conclusion I was just playing a worse version of a standard IJ list by the end.

Good to hear. To answer your previous question, I usually run my boyz with 10 2-handers. I used shields in the past with my bigger units assuming there would be a lot of boyz out of attack range anyway, so might as well add a little more survivability to the unit if I'm already sacrificing attacks. That said, I like having the potential to turn anyone of the 10 'ardboyz units into a hammer on the Waaagh! dump turn and the two-handers facilitate that better IMO. I think banner boss is a good add to the army, rerolling 1's to wound increases damage output more than you would expect, especially on the bomb turn. Obviously you're sacrificing some defense/screening/ etc. but I definitely see him being worth it from an offensive and Mawkrusher redundancy perspective. Adding the banner boss also allows some more flexibility with your artifact slot and how you use the MK as well. You could probably get away with throwing aetherquartz on the MK for example, or putting doppleganger on the MK and using him more offensively early in the game. That said, the artifact slot is really dependent on your meta. If you're facing FEC/Slaneesh constantly, you're gaining a lot more value from doppleganger. Aetherquartz in a vacuum is the obviously still the best choice, but there are better choices in specific match-ups/metas.

With Aetherquartz you're generating around 12 CP over the course of the game w/ this list. My list is also generating about ~12CP w/o Broach, but it's more front-loaded. So, initial impression is you'll be fine w/ that amount of CP regen but you're going to be at a disadvantage against alpha-strikes or in any scenario where you need to Waaagh! dump on the first turn. By turn 2 though it's basically evened out (6cp on average going into T2 for my list, you'll have 4 on average w/ Broach … so about 5.5ish).

I only played Orcs in 8th, and not much has changed in AoS Yes, you keep the GGs behind so they can activate. For example against Witchelves/plaguemonks with a bunch of 1" attack and occupy a lot of combat frontage, if you park GGS behind you can get some free damage after they blow up the screen. You don't want to do that if they can 1) double activate hammer units 2) concentrate a lot of damage over a small frontage (Read: FEC, Idoneth, even my old Gorefist). Otherwise, they'll multi-charge the screening unit and still get value piling into the unit that's behind within 4". I probably would lump the triple thrister list into the FEC,Idoneth category. You need to occupy board space, coax them into hitting 'ardboyz screens, and counterpunch w/ waaagh. Morathi you need to just keep feeding units, and use the MK and the rest of the army to deal with everything else. I've only played against Archaon a handful of times, but probably handle him in a similar fashion to Morathi, but with the upside that can actually kill him he's poorly positioned and you have enough CP going into that turn.

I run Ignax Scales on the MK which is pretty much Cuirass. I don't think the reflect is going to have much of an impact. Against FEC you need to deploy the screen 'ardboyz so the GGs behind it is 4" back to guard against double activation, and never send the MK into the Gristlegore general. Focus on the rest of his monsters and heroes with the MK. That's all you can really do for the most part, it's the FEC player's game to lose. Super powerful combat heroes that mess with combat activation order is not a recipe for IJ success. I'm not looking forward to playing against Slaneesh once the local guys get some more games under their belt either... For Fungoids, I usually use them to deny areas of the board from deepstrike, capture my own deployment zone objectives, cast mystic shield on the MK, utilize realm spells, and their signature spell is actually decent later in the game. Being able to generate 5CP over the course of 5 turns for 180 points is the main reason you're taking them though, absolutely. Going down to 2 fungoids was the right choice though, front-loading some CP to guard against alphastrike + securing triumph was extremely valuable.

It's really matchup/scenario dependent so I'll go over deployments against some typical army archetypes. Really fast combat armies(Slaneesh, Idoneth, FEC, Stormcast Deepstrike, BoC w/ Enlightened, DoK,etc.): You're lining 'ardboyz in front, GGs behind them (keep them within 3"inch of the front of the 'ardboyz), Krusher somewhere behind that. You'll have some extra 'ardboyz to bubblewrap MK from deepstrike as you advance up the board. First turn is taking up board real estate and daring them to charge your 'ardboyz, once they commit (if they don't commit you'll just win on objectives most likely) you just pop all your Waaaghs and table them. Honestly, these types of armies are the easiest matchup. Your 'ardboyz screens are tough enough they have to use an actual hammer to clear them, and once they commit a hammer against your screen you've basically won. Horde Armies w/ Magic Support (Sacrament, Skaven, Gloomspite, etc.): Generally a much tougher matchup for IJ. They're usually running tons of screening units, they have hordes you can't smash and bash through, most have insane recycling mechanics, if you're fighting over an objective they put the pressure on you to commit CP to Waaagh (usually when you don't want to) because they have the bodies to take objective priority even if it's a stalemate combat, and they have magic sniping to put pressure on the MK (mitigated by Ignax Scales, but still puts you on a clock). There's a lot subtlety to these matchups, it usually involves sending out as little of your army as possible to clear screens, getting them to commit to killing those screens with their hordes and hammers, and praying you have enough CP in the bank to pop those hordes without exposing the MK and the rest of the army. The problem here is it's on the IJ player to make a move in this match-up, they'll have board control, but if you try to rush the whole army into them you'll be the one tied up on screening units/tough hordes and probably lose. The deployment is going to look similar, but with GGs in front so they can charge early to clear screens, and the 'ardboyz behind that to support the MK. 30' flying alpha-strikes: You're playing this exactly like you would play against any other fast combat army, but you have to make sure there's not enough space for them to hop your 'ardboyz and GGs and hit the Mawkrusher. If your mawkrusher is alive, and you still have at least 5 other IJ units on the board you'll most likely win. You'll have 4 CP on your T1 on average, more than enough to kill whatever jumped across the board at you. The key is just forcing them to hit as few units as possible. Ideally, you'll only lose 2 'ardboyz units w/ perfect screening, if you ****** up(like I did against Idoneth in my tourney this weekend) he'll probably only kill 3 or 4 units total. The beauty of these tanky MSU lists is you can lose 3 or 4 units and still be in a good spot, you lose 3 or 4 units on T1 with a typical Bloodtoofs or Ironfist it's game over.

This actually has potential, 143 wounds in a list using 3 Brutes is really solid. You should have enough GGs/'ardboyz to bubblewrap the MK against deepstriking hammers. The brutes in round 2 or 3 are going to absolute wreck whatever they touch, and you have enough of them they really can't focus fire them down before they have a real impact. I'll probably try something like this soon. I love Brutes as well, but they're overcosted IMO and I always operated under the assumption you had to run them in a battalion for speed/durability(durability from Battleshock immunity/bravery items). I also think our battalions are overcosted, so paying a double premium just to run Brutes just wasn't appealing... maybe I'll change my mind with this list.

You already pretty much nailed it Superninja. I go MSU because of easier Waaagh! and the flexibility having more units offers you. The MK is already a pretty good buff sponge, but there's definitely a draw-back when it comes to activation and triggering smashing and bashing. That said, losing 3 or 4 units or having several units outside the MK's Waaagh range is no longer is crippling to the army. I can sacrifice a few 'ardboyz units as screens or use them to sit on vital deployment zone objectives w/o compromising the punch on my Waaaagh dump turn. I think there could be an argument for going with a 20'ardboyz unit, but I didn't want to change too much going into a tourney. No Brutes no based on 1 thing, they're going to have a giant "Snipe me" sign painted on their back. The MK is usually a trap for opponents sniping with Ignax Scales and Ironclad. Very rarely is your opponent going to get their points worth shooting at him, and you have the Warchanter to buff the MK if he does suffer a few wounds and has his attack profile degrades. The goregruntas/'ardboyz are horrible targets for most sniping, the fungoids are also very durable for their cost, there's really nothing in the army that's a great target for enemy ranged weapons. As soon as you add Brutes to the list your opponent has a nice expensive target that only needs to suffer 3 wounds before they're in danger of battleshock. You're going to end up babysitting them and spending CP and/or artifact slots to keep them on the board, both of which are extremely valuable to IJ.

Pretty good result for the tourney this weekend. Went 3-0 and ended up in second place. I took @broche advice and just dropped one Fungoid so I could start with 2 CP, but otherwise same list I posted before. 1st game: Slaneesh. Basically running the named Keeper of Secrets, a Keeper of Secrets, a couple of other heroes and two block demonettes. Scenerio was Scorched Earth. I deploy with 'ardboyz screens in front, with GGs behind them, and my MK behind those. My opponent opts to take turn 1, and he pretty much rushes everything into my line. He fails a charge with the regular keeper of secrets but everything else makes it. He doesn't do much, and I don't do much in return. He ends up killing 1 GG unit(3 inch ranged attack from the named Keeper), a couple of models from a few 'ardboyz units, and almost kills one of my fungoids. I did a few wounds to his heroes and kill off 5ish demonettes. My turn 1 I get lucky and end up with 5cp, blow everything on waaagh! I had to retreat a few units to get my MK involved, but I end up just smashing and bashing through most of his army. He did get a couple of the always-strikes-last abilities off, but the only consequential one was vs. the MK and the game was pretty much already over by then. I won the initiative roll off and ended up completely tabling him at top of 2. He was sitting on 40 something depravity points that he wasn't able to use. Definitely would like a rematch, he's still relatively new to the army and obviously made some big mistakes committing all his heroes. 2nd Game: Skaven. 40 clanrats, 20 clanrats, 20 clanrates, two full blocks of plague monks, thanquil, Hellpit, Screamin bells, and some other heroes. He had some combo that allowed him to pretty much infinitely farm command points. The scenario was starstrike. Opponent screened his whole line with 40 clanrats, had two 20 clanrats screen 4" behind that, and his plague monks behind those blocks of 20. He runs his whole army into the middle of the board. My T1 I send a few units of GGs into try to pop the 40 screen and keep the rest of the army back to wait for where the comet lands. T2, opponent wins initiative and ends up retreating a few units to make room for one of the plague monk blocks to charge and clear the GGs I used to take out the clanrat screen and grab the middle objective. My turn 2 I end up killing off the plague monk block with my MK, and clear the 20 screen of clanrats in front of his other block of plaguemonks. I was able to pile-in 1 unit barely within 3" of the corner of the remaining plaguemonk block locking him down going into T3. The final comets both land on the side of the board where my MK was on, I win intiative and the MK ends up killing the Hellpit and a few other things and I score all 3 objectives. He still has a lot alive, but thanquil and his plaguemonk block were on the other side of the board. He ends up destroying most of my units in the center and side of the board without the objectives, but I had board control on the side that mattered. We ended up about even in Kill Points, I landed the major victory. Definitely got pretty lucky with the comet landings. 3rd Game: Idoneth. 6x3 offensive eels, High King, the deepstrike hero, some thralls, and another hero that reverses High Tide so he gets always-strikes first on T2 instead of 3. Not the typical Eel spam list, but it has most of the main components that makes it work. Scenerio was Duality of Death. He opts to go first and with reversed High Tide he ends up running and charging the whole army T1 to try to pin me in my deployment zone.. The eels do absolute work. Pop 3 'ardboyz units and 1 gg unit. My T1, pop all my Waaagh!s, blow through eels. Win the Turn 2 initiative, GGs and Mk run down the heroes on the points. He's always strikes first, and ends up taking out a few units of GGs but I was able dislodge one of the heroes. Both of us barely had anything on the table at this point, but without the Eels pretty much nothing in his army could stop the MK. By the end of the game I pulled ahead on objective points but it was really hard fought. I ended up getting passed on Kill points, so ended up second, but my practice partner ended up winning 1st so really good showing for myself and crew.

I actually like dropping the last fungoid suggestion, trying that in the 1 game I have before tourney. I've been using the MK as buff sponge, but I think combining two boyz unit actually might have some utility without compromising my late game Waaagh! checks too much. Other suggestion offered to me was changing one unit of boyz to GGs and adding Scuttletide. Infinite range spell with that big of a base could be extremely effective of blocking off choke-points. Probably could just outright win you the game against non-flying armies who fail to dispel it and can't move to the middle objectives (working out the math in my head... chances of that are extremely low. So, probably just dropping a fungoid for my last experimentation game.)

I'd be beating a dead horse going into a ton of detail, but I avoid these low body/wound count lists like the plague.

I've taken a break from AoS the last couple of months, but I'm about to head to a tourney this weekend(probably only 20-25 people but about ~8 of them are super competitive GT goers). In a pretty big upset, I won the last one I went to in January with the Gorefist list I've posted a few times, but I want to bring something different. I'm currently planning on this: Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: AqshyFungoid Cave-Shaman (90)- AlliesFungoid Cave-Shaman (90)- AlliesFungoid Cave-Shaman (90)- AlliesMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist- Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: Ignax's Scales Orruk Warchanter (80)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron ChoppasTotal: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 270 / 400Wounds: 172 Posted this list a few months back, but I've only gotten about half a dozen games with it, any feedback appreciated. It was pretty hard to give up Broach and/or Prophet of the Waaagh!, but 1 game vs. new Skaven made me realize even with perfect screening/positioning there's no way I'm keeping the Krusher alive past turn 3 w/o Ignax and Ironclad. I usually think the footboss is a noob trap, but he's pretty much my only option for a redundant Waaagh! source in this army as I'm already at the ally cap. Playstyle is much different from Gorefist as well. It's been fun playing an army that actually gets stronger as the game goes on (Gork bless these new fungoids, they are SOOOO good in IJ). Anyway, let me know what you guys think.

Ding, Ding, Ding. I had the same conversation about my Gorefist list recently. Sure, I can take games off pretty much any of the top lists consistently, and I've won some local tournaments against really tough fields (beat two LON 60 grimgast lists in the tourney I won. Both the guys placed in the top 20 at LVO w/ the same list). But.... most Idoneth eel lists are just a strictly better version of the Gorefist I'm running. So, most of the tourney guys who like the playstyle of various IJ lists move onto better alternatives in other factions, leaving IJ with mostly fluff players, or crazies like me who enjoy beating people with "bad" armies. This is reflected in the tourney stats as well, IMO IJ is an easy 3 to 4 win army, but it seems like most people struggle to even go positive with them. The good news in all this is that I think it's reasonable to expect a points drop on the Mawkrusher, Big G, and probably our battalions in the next GHB. Holding out for the book, some short-range shooting/mw options would be a great addition to the army without stepping on any other faction's identity.

Cool list, we can quibble about if it's optimized, but there's 1 huge weakness IMO that has to be addressed. 1, 7-wound Waaagh source is not enough. You definitely have enough bodies to properly screen vs. deepstrike/flying chargers, but you're not going to be able to defend vs. magic sniping (maybe this isn't a huge issue in your meta, in which case feel free to ignore). This is especially a concern because of the speed of the footboss, the opponent is going to have 2-3 turns before your footboss is even in a decent position to Waaagh! That's why the Mawkrusher is so widely used. Speed + Huge base + bigger Waaagh! range means he WILL be in position by t2, most likely t1 if you get a rampaging destroyers off ( and you have Gorefist -GGs to screen for him, so he's not going to get instantly surrounded and die). Being able to affect 14 wounds w/ a defensive artifact rather than 7 wounds is also absolutely huge in terms of survivability. Plus, what @Superninja mentioned as well, he's the best answer we have to high armor anything (Sequitor blocks, centerpieces, it doesn't matter the target with enough CP/Waaaghs! it's going to die).

Yea definitely, I only play Gorefist because it was easier stomaching painting/moving 21 GGs compared to ~90 'ardboyz. I actually did play a few games w/ the artifact swaps you suggested a few months ago to the 'ardfist I posted (thermal rider on the battalion warchanter), and it drastically improved the effectiveness of the 'ardboy recycle. I defaulted back to the normal Broach/Cuirass combo though because I felt like the list needed more punching power, but with the Fungoid changes maybe it's time to revisit 'ardfist + Asqhy + Fungoids.

I get Brutes do more damage, but that's the only thing they do better. When Waaagh! is there to turn any battline unit into a hammer, and they're making it easier and easier to generate CP, I don't see the point in taking a dedicated hammer that's lower wound-per-point, less mobile, and has worse board coverage (besides the @broche reason. They do look awesome ).

Yea, I'll just swap in a warchanter and try it out . Adds a greater incentive to bring a bigger battleline unit (probably 20 'ardboyz) to be a sponge for the +1 to hit from the warchanter. As far as Brutes, don't get me wrong, I full realize the destructive potential of Brute Bosses and a ton of Waaaghs! I'd consider adding them if I ever had a problem with damage and killing things, but for the most part the 'ardboyz/GGs chew through anything they touch with these CP engine lists. In a nutshell, I put much higher weight in wounds per point, board coverage, and mobility than I do attack profiles when selecting battline for IJ. Mostly because when I do lose with IJ it's from one of two things. 1) I didn't bubble wrap my MawKrusha perfectly, and they deepstrike/fly in some high mobility hammer to shutdown my one Waaagh! source. 2) I don't have enough wounds/units in my list to guarantee successful Waaaghs and objective control, and eventually get grinded down because IJ units are garbage w/o consistent Waaagh support. Brutes don't help as much as 'ardboyz in either of those outlined situations, so, I've been passing on them lately. If I start running into anvils/heroes I can't break consistently, I'll start swapping in some Brutes units though without hesitation. Anyway, thanks the feedback all. Definitely a few optimization choices to consider.

Have to admit this is my first time considering allies for IJ, wasn't aware of the 1/4 rule. I thought it was just 20% of total points... it would be hard to even fit 3 into any IJ list. Back to the drawing board.

Here's my new build, I'm enjoying playing it more than the Gorefist and I think it's stronger as well in most match-ups. It still leans heavily on a CP engine for multiple high Waaagh! turns, but it's swapping in Fungoids in lieu of some combination of cutting points,battalions, Aetherquartz, and Prophet. Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist- Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: Ignax's Scales 10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron ChoppasTotal: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 170 There's an overall loss in mobility and the CP generated are not as front-loaded compared to the Gorefist, but we're adding ~30 wounds of batttline,a strong magic phase, and a tankier Mawkrusher to survive long enough to utilize the CP generation. There's probably a good version of this list that utilizes footbosses, but I find the 15" range of Waaagh! on a pie plate too valuable (that, and you get to affect 14 wounds instead of 7 wounds w/ Ironclad, Ignax Scales, Realm Spell buffs, etc.).

Pretty much like everything posted so far. I do think @Malakree undervalues aetherquartz/prophet a little, but don't want rehash an old argument, especially when there's obvious value in the mobility/defensiveness Aqshy brings. IMO Waaagh! is the only thing that makes IJ even remotely playable right now. Like Malakree said, if you compare warscroll to warscroll IJ units just don't cut it compared to some of the top entries in other combat armies. Every unit in IJ is just a Waaagh! platform for me, so I rarely care about the offensive stat line of any of the units. The only thing that really matters is 1. How many wounds per point 2. How mobile is the unit, I'll make up the damage through cutting points for CP w/ the aetherquartz/prophet engine. Unfortunately, cutting points for CP usually means I can't afford a back-up Waaagh source. Footboos requires cloak to be playable IMO, so that kind of takes him off the table with my love of aetherquartz. Banner boss is interesting, but him not being IJ turns me off, if he could carry an artifact he'd be an auto-include in every one of my lists. Anway, good stuff guys.

Definitely the major weakness of the list, but if you have a good LOS blocking terrain and can keep him alive until T3 it's an easy 300+ points of 'ardboyz back on the table. It hits just hard as the other two lists, and can still reliably engage T2 even without the Ironfist/BT speed boosts. I honestly feel like the bloodtoofs list is actually the weakest of the 3, but it's so match-up dependent it's hard to say.