Enochi
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Posts posted by Enochi
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59 minutes ago, Overread said:
I'm confused how GW redoing the SoB army in plastic is causing you problems? They might get a few new units, but by and large the army core is going to remain the same. So any models you might already own will be readily useable and might need only a base change (if any); whilst if you don't own any then waiting a few months until the plastics hit is an ideal idea.
I mean heck go for it with the 3rd party stuff if you've got 3rd party stores and clubs to play at! If I were building a Sisters army I'd throw some Wargame Exclusive in too! https://wargameexclusive.com Theyv'e some great sisters including a knight pilot as well as Imperial Assassins (Heresy hunters) and Guard options too!
Cause they have screwed me out of two armies already. So I'm not going to be buying another army from them.
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16 minutes ago, Overread said:
Well Sister of Battle wise its easy - they are going to replace the entire line. So you know that right now anything you buy will be removed and either replaced or simply removed. Though honestly all the core troops and units will be replaced and we've seen most of them already; what you might lose are one or two named characters.
Otherwise everything is coming back in plastic - new warriors, new seraphon, new repentia, new rhino etc...
Sure and GW lost a rather large sale to me because they screwed me. Instead Ill go to their competitors to buy things like Paints, Models, and the like. The Non-GW stores in my area don't care if I'm using non-gw models as long as they look close and are roughly the same size.
Is this going to hurt there bottom line any? I doubt their are enough players not on the GW Kool-aid train to make a difference but why should I support a company that has stabbed me in the back twice. -
5 hours ago, Overread said:
Yeah and there in lies the problem - GW clearly needs at least one or more staff dedicated to floating between departments to ensure that Department A isn't setting up a problem for Department B. This could be as simple as ensuring that the photography department doesn't use models that are going to be removed in newer marketing photos; or ensuring that a base size change from the rules team makes it to the packing side.
We've already had mistakes such as when Greenskins were pulled, GW still had the greenskin box shown in marketing material in the white dwarf issue that month.
I think it would also help if when some things were pulled, GW owned up to it at the time in marketing, because moulds do break. If, lets say, the Greenskin mould shatters or is found to be far more worn or damaged before GW was going to pull them formally and it has to be done earlier then its a great marketing move to be upfront and say "Hey we were going to remove these guys, sorry but its happening sooner than we'd like because the mould broke and there's no point spending another £100,000 (or thereabouts) on a new one at this stage."
I think one issue is that GW is scared about tipping their hand - just look how fast Raging Heroes made and is now selling new "female untamed beast" models after Warcry dropped. Only a week or two after GW put them on sale and those models were only revealed in the normal run of things. What if GW had previewed those ideas a year and a half ago RH could have had that warband out before GW (though granted for Warcy that would be a mistake since it wasn't a game yet).
The other is that they are slaved to the launch sales concept and they don't want people sitting on money. Their theory is that a shorter period of build up (a few months now) is a "safe" space for them to market in for most things. Though I'm hoping that Sisters of Battle sell phenomenally well because GW has marketed them a whole year or more earlier than normal. I think if that can prove to be record or even just really strong sales it might encourage them to consider revealing info on at least updated model lines a lot earlier. I dont' think we'll ever reach a point where they preview new armies and concepts that early; but at least updated sculpts could be "spoilt" early .
Yeah I have been thinking about getting SoB army. But after GW screwed me on my Elysians and My AoS armies I think I will just buy the Raging heroes models instead.
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You know I just realized I had 2 armies squatted in about a years time. My Order Draconis now and my Elysians last year. That's kinda depressing.
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Sigh this is such a cluster ******.
Honestly the "Best" time if GW wanted to can these units was back in when AoS 2.0 came out. People would have been mad but would have taken it as growing pains of a developing game. It wouldn't have even been as bad if they did it during one of the GHBs. But they did it in the worst way possible. By creating high expectations with the cities of sigmar book then sneakily eliminating a huge chunk of units vastly increased the malcontent with GWs actions. Now they are letting players stew in the betrayal while focusing on 40k means no one is going to give the new book a fair shake and its going to have to be Well "Above-average" to pacify these players.
I get that GW wants players to buy new models that is understandable. They are a business. But the method should be by creating models that makes me want to buy them not saying I can't play with my current models anymore.
I mean think about it this way. If they had made DoK, Idoneth, or Sylvaneth have some really good units to ally in with the old aelf line people would have picked them up so supplement their own forces. Then slowly grown their new "allies" into an army of their own. This would have engendered good will towards GW by those players for giving them models to play with and feeling at least included. To really hammer if home if they wanted. Make a couple of "Alliance warscrolls" that feature a new unit with an old one from a different range to really help push it.
I mean this isn't rocket science.-
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Well if this is true. I might have to go burn down all the GW stores within 100 miles. As this would mean my ENTIRE ARMY just got squatted. Yeah I am beyond pissed at this point.
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1 hour ago, Raffonerd said:
This means that we cannot tell you if your list is good, cause you don't play exactly aos.
Gh19 says how to use terreins (10 each game).
In my opinion, this list as it is can t be competitive cause of the lack in mobility. Plus against sylvaneth you have lost as he starts. (1 faction wood plus 1 summoned one).
Shrug. Maybe. I have tested on TTS though and can quite easily set up terrain choices where Sylvaneth wont get to play terrain either anywhere or anywhere important.
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57 minutes ago, janenglund said:
Wait, whaaaat?
As the Reaper Bolt Thrower does more damage than Celestar Ballista, the trick is that it is more vulnerable. It has 36" range for a reason, it has to stay away from the harms way. I often place my Bolt Thrower next to a building or the hill to keep the crew behing it and out of sight.
How to be polite... that house rule seems to be imbalanced.Shrug is what it is. Maybe cause our group is light on terrain and plays without the terrain rules(Not counting faction terrain rules)?
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54 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:
And if they place the little mage behind tower or in a wood?
Then they aren't slinging spells at me and the Bolt throwers chew up what they are buffing or whatever characters they have leading the charge.
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22 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:
The thing is that you have automatic lose in some missions with this list, like everyone with objectives in the middle of the map and mage mission. (only 1 artifact). You are investing to much in non mobile models. I don't see how could you defeat a Sylvaneth army (no magic defence also)
My anti-magic is to kill the casters. And if needed the Dragonblades and DL lord can hit any position on the map so I don't really see your point in that regard. My game plan as I said before Turn 1 Decapitation of Heros and Casters. Turn 2 Finish what remains then start body blowing any other critical units as well as the Objective holders. Turn 3+ by this time Whats left of the Arkanaut Companies should be able to at least grab The center objective while the OD pushes into their backline hopefully.
I get that the name of the game for Order has been lately "well we can't kill them so Lets just try to hold objectives" I'm trying to get back to winning by saying Yeah lets just you know play the game again like killing units is important.
It could be that due to my local area I am underestimating the amount of spell slinging damage I would take turn 1 into my back line but I'm not hugely concerned about it at the moment. -
1 minute ago, dekay said:
Alright, if your ruling makes crews untargettable, I concede my point - it's the most glaring weakness of the old type warmachines and without it, yeah, they're very solid units.
The crews can be targeted by Shooting attacks just not spells. Which I find to be very reasonable imo.
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4 hours ago, Raffonerd said:
My suggestion are:
You should go for ethereal amulet on the dragon as long you will always start as second and you can get focused on first turn shooting phase.
Second I will drop Celestial Hurricanum and Tenebrael Shard to insert some units that can help you sitting shooters. If you get charged in the first turn you lose eveything. I suggest 30 phoenix as a human shield for the archers. Plus if you have Celestial Hurricanum you must keep everything really close and you will encounter problems in spreading up your army.
Dragon's Horn is not that usefull if you play only 10 blades. Let us know after the test. You can also put a Wraithbow on the seawarden if you go Shysh
Seems like reasonable suggestions. Right now my local meta doesn't have much for first turn charges. I'm more worried about Character sniping that the moment (Big reason of why I have the Huricanum)
2 minutes ago, dekay said:You should really consider swapping bolt throwers for celestar balistae. They're cheaper, have more firepower and only disadvantage is losing range in anti-horde mode. They are, however, single models and therefore immune to all those AOE mortal wound effects that clean bolt throwers crew almost instantly.
Together with Lord Ordinator instead of sea warden entire set is 10 points more expensive, but even without Ordinator's buff it's worth it.
Seriously, if you face Maggotkin and they roll a correct cycle of corruption effect turn 1, your crews just spontanously dissapear before the battle even starts.
It has been ruled in my area that Bolt throwers & Crew for the the purpose of spells and abilities count as 1 unit. And I disagreed completely on the Balistae. Without being able to deepstrike them I going to be having to use their long range mode more often then not and they are much worse at ranges 18.1" and beyond. Even at 18" and less the The Bolt Thrower is more accurate hiting 4s rather then 5s. And with the command ability of the seawarden its just hands down better all around. In SCE army year the CB gets a good bit better being able to deepstrike in and the LO right on top of what you want but here I don't think it is advantageous. -
New GHB Order
Allegiance: Order - Mortal Realm: Ulgu
LEADERS
Dragonlord (380)
- Shield & Dragon Lance
- Artefact : Doppelganger Cloak
Seawarden on Foot (100)
- General
- Command Trait : Strategic Genius
Tenebrael Shard (120)
- Artefact : Sword of Judgement
UNITS
5 x Dragon Blades (120)
5 x Dragon Blades (120)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
BEHEMOTHS
Celestial Hurricanum (300)
WAR MACHINES
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Battalion:
Dragonlord Host (140)
2000 points. 10 Drops. The Dragonlord host is the hammer. This list acutally hopes to try and peal off as many supporting characters as possible. With 36" range and 3 CP on the first turn. My thought is if all the Repeaters have good targets trigger the Seawarden command effect 3 times so each of the bolt throwers should be hitting on 3s and 4s thanks to the huricanum and wounding on 2s thanks to the Seawarden with Rerolls to both. with 12 shots at Ap -1 on a 4+ hero thats on average going to be 5.8 wounds on a hero. Leave the big monster characters to the Arkanauts mostly. Tenbral takes out whatever is most needed to be sure to die. I'm hoping this set up in an optimal run will kill 3 to 4 characters with a decapitation strike on first turn then deliver the body blow the 2nd turn with the Dragonlord host.
So looks good on paper need to test it. Might swap the shield for the horn since the Dragonlord has the Cloak.
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3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:
Enoch has created some strawman to attack my argument, and it is derailing what I'm trying to get across.
You know this would be easier to believe that you actually read what I wrote if you bothered to get my name right. Considering you have gotten it wrong multiple times
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7 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
Because you are incapable of understanding or have no experience by which to offer rebut? The same theory of analytics are used in everything from sport to economics.
No because your rambling is foolish. That every unit can't be viable is frankly garbage. In a game where units can be viable as simply chaff and Cheap Objective Grabbers there is really no excuse.
If units are useless that typically mean that something in your army is either too good for its points or it needs a point reduction/rules change.
And I know plenty of people that run Horde armies over Elite ones so your 200 model count excuse falls flat. And Considering the same people who are writting the majority of the fluff in the battletomes are writing the rules as well to my knowledge then its really there own fault for painting themselves into a corner.
Your last statement just reinforces that you know nothing. Units being cut from a list doesn't mean there aren't viable. Example is the annoited on foot in my PT. It is a viable unit having a well defined role that it fills effectively. It is usually unplayed because its roll can be filled by others that can do other things but I could still use it competitively. For example if I wanted to make a list they has my Phoenixes charge up the board while he camps back with the guard. The Phoenixes without riders are NONVIABLE as they cannot fufulling there roll. They are too fragile to stay on the board as a tarpit and lack the punch to be point effective as a damageing unit. They have good speed but as a single model can't function as an objective grabber. Now if there were to reduce the points of these they might be able to function as either a tarpit or suicide attacker.-
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2 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:
I wish it was some kind of consolation. The Phoenix were changed on every single GHB.
People that enjoy the Aelves keep trying inventive ways to field then so they can ise their models. We didnt exactly were on the top tier on any way, and now we got bashed on the face with not one but 2 punches in the face with Dragonlords and Phoenix going up in points (AGAIN). I can see the same with the Dispossesed increse in Warriors cost.
Why?
Few armies too hits as severe as 40 points,and it os not as if we are dominating the meta. If GW had given us any new buff to mitigate it, i would be fine but in reality we only lost. And a lot.
Agreed I could have dealt with +20 to these. Would have been hard but doable. Would have made pure my a fairly neutral change and had to tighten my belt on my PT. +40 with +10 to the battalion though means I'm out of options.
5 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:Not all units are capable of being viable though. This goes back to my original comment. Some units based on their narrative function, don't have a viable function in the game as played. Fiends are a perfect example of this. They aren't a "bad" unit by any measure, they check all the boxes, but once you leave the context of the book and points and play the game in the manner that we the players have created, they fall flat. People refuse to admit how much of the game is influenced by how we choose to play the game, and the choices people are making in the game from the perspective of their own faction, not singularly rules and points.
IF the game was mostly about single wound combat blocks, sure Fiends could prove a good unit when compared to say a second KoS. But that isn't how we the representations of the meta have chosen to play we value certain attributes over other, and not all of those attributes are rules based attributes. Most people aren't interested in painted 200 single wound models, and thus the strength of the KoS increases in real world value, compared to say Fiends.
Again the example Blood Stalkers, how cheap would they have to be before their 5 shots, and low body count would be relevant in the way we choose to play the game. I would argue less than 90, and even then it would be a marginal choice. Pricing these units so low that people take them, runs into the problem that players are taking them for reasons other than the narrative role assigned to them. The designers are reasonable loathe to do so, and I can't help but agree with that principle. GW has historically struggled with dual role units as well, but I tip my hat because dual rule units are notoriously difficult to price .The problem here is what the unit does, based on its warscroll, not how the designers priced that warscroll.
IDK competitively are probably the best representation of a traditional Aelven force we have had to date. 8th edition HE might also be close. The best build includes like 20-40 infantry models mostly in faction. Yes the skew build exists but that just got a price increase, 18 eels cost an extra 90 pts extra which brings you from 18 to 15, which doesn't sound like a lot, but I can tell you as a competitive IDK player a unit of 6 morrsarr and a 9 morrsarr or a unit of 3 and unit of 6 are completely different units. Not to mention the soul scryer went up 30 pts a pop, bring us to 150 pts over what the build cost previously.
I have this discussion in a lot of faction threads because being able to understand this is fundamental to competitive gaming. If you want to play competitively first you have to understand that the points cost of a unit is almost the last consideration. Its in the is it viable to do so phase of list construction. You start at role, and lots of units are going to get culled at the role stage of list construction. The bigger your tome the more warscrolls are going to get cut.That was the most nonsense I have seen posted on her in quite a while.
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1 hour ago, Thiagoma said:
Soooo....
Not to be negative but we took 2 major point beats with the Dragonlord and Frostheart Phoenix.
It is been an uphill battle to keep playing with the units i enjoy but this nerfs kinda broke my spirit.
Going to a tournament in 2 weeks where we are gona still use the 2018 ghb. I am taking a Dragonlord a Frost Phoenix and 2 Ballistas.
My 1250 army, where i already pay 160 "tax" battleline, now became 100 pts more expensive. I was not competitive already but could get a win or two.
Think i will take a brake from AoS until GW let me play the freaking game again. Really upset about it and completly lost the will to finish painting my minis for the event.
Yeah I'm in agreement with you I can basically run my OD list doing number crunching by drooping the endless spell (It went up in points too making my over all list +80 points) but the list already struggled now it just going to fail I think. -
Well gentlemen and Ladies. Phoenix temple got hosed once again with Frosthearts getting a 40 point increase. Flamespyre got a 20 point decrease... and ones without riders are at there pre-AOS 2.0 points.
With that and Dragonlords going up +40 points I think I'm pretty much done with AoS until they come out with a tome for aelves.-
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On 5/24/2019 at 5:47 PM, Thiagoma said:
The list can pack a punch but doesnt have that many objective holders. Can be a problem.
Well he wanted an Alpha strike list. So thats what a gave him. Also don't underestimate the mobility of that list to snatch far objectives.
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If your wanting to Alpha strike frankly I think something like this might work a bit better
Shooty/charge alpha Allegiance: Order - Mortal Realm: Hysh
LEADERS:
Dragonlord (340) - Shield & Dragon Lance - Artefact : Phoenix Stone
Seawarden on Foot (100) - Artefact : Lens of Refraction
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Archmage (100) - Steed
UNITS
5 x Dragon Blades (140)
5 x Dragon Blades (140)
5 x Reavers (140)
5 x Reavers (140)
5 x Reavers (140)
WAR MACHINES
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
BATTALIONS Dragonlord Host (130)
TOTAL: 1990/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 103 LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 4/4 ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/400
The Dragonlord Host give you an alpha strike superior to your High warden. The Dragonlord with its double move has a 28" movement plus charge and is a much nastier attacker.
The Dragonblades aren't bad as well though they lack a bit of punch.
3 Units of Reavers give you some mobile skirmishers to pick off weakened unit or harass characters.
The prize however is the Battery of bolt throwers with the Sea-warden and Lord ordinator each gets 12 AP -1 shots hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. And you can reroll hits and wounds if you use the Seawardens command ability (Though it can't move if you do)
I take the lens so if someone tries and drop a bunch of mortal wounds bombs on your little pack before you can snipe their spellcasters you can pop the lens to reduce the damage and hopefully keep them functioning. -
Okay I'm in an escalation league and we are about to jump from 500 point to 1000. So far I have won all my matches but I know alot of armies scale better at higher point values and we got a LOT of players playing Skaven and LoN. (Think there are also a few playing then new Slannesh book)
I'm running mixed order and we are allowed to change or lists between games but we do have to stay the same faction. I'm playing GA: Order for mine.
My 500 point list was Seawarden, 2 Highbourn bolt throwers, and 20 High elf Spearmen. (No one was really expecting the bolt throwers)
Now for 1000 points I'm planning on
Seawarden
Tenbral Shard w/ Sword of Judgement
5 Reavers
5 Reavers
Highbourne Repeating Bolt Thrower
Highbourne Repeating Bolt Thrower
War hydra
Khinerai Heartrenders
Thoughts and Suggestions? -
Is 4 Huskards on Thundertusks still considered a no-no? Or did they get nerfed enough to be reasonable to bring.
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If that's the new restriction on allies it sucks....alot.
My plan is
3 Anointed on Frostheart2 x 30 Block of Phoenix guard
1 x 10 Block of Phoenix guard
Allies:
ArchmageBranch Wytch
Branch Wytch
Endless spells
(If I'm limited to 2 allies then Ill probably take a unit of Sisters of the thorn and a Branchwytch.)
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3 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:
Simply put it's this...
GW always said on the eve of AoS's release that nobody would find their army redundant from fantasy.
What they were saying was, there's a new system coming - but you'll be equipped with all the tools you need to play that new system in the form of the compendiums.
They also said that although these old world armies could be played and were current, they would receive no more support or updates. New factions would rise in the new game world with new lore and models.
This was already hinted at in the aesthetic of the last wave of models the year or two before AoS released - a very different look and feel and all leading up to end times.
It would only be a matter of time before GW stopped playing lip service to players with older armies such as Tomb Kings, Brets, empire etc, both at events and within the literature. Unfortunately there comes a time when it's time to move on. They're a business and they need to sell models. There is no value in it for them if dude on forum is still smashing on about his 10,000 point bret army being nerfed but in reality hasn't put a penny in their till for over ten years.
They are not only a game system but also a model supplier and manufacturer, they need their public to be on board with both.
Sadly its hard for most of us to swallow especially as long time fantasy battle players but that's the way it is. trust me, I've got two forgeworld war mammoths and the thought that FW / GW will decide to pull the plug on their warscrolls / points is something I'm dreading.
With regards to FW and heresy slowing down, not the case. They really just have too much to get on with at the moment, and with Alan Bligh passing away the mantle of Mr Heresy is a difficult and massive one to fill with such passion and knowledge. Also, they could never have predicted how much it would take off. Remember although they are a part of GW their remit and capability is massively reduced compared to the main business. They are no different to an elite car manufacturer's bespoke division where your output is tin compared to the parent, but your product commands a much higher boutique price. And so it is with Forgeworld.
Heresy was always nice until the prospero and calth box sets, it saw a flood of new blood, but at it's heart it's still a massively expensive undertaking by the time you throw in vehicles etc.
But back to the topic of this thread.
The way I see legends is the final salute to the old game systems' armies from GW. You get a proper battletome immortalising the army for one last time. After that, it goes to where it's rightful rresting place is - in the legend that was the old world.
No points? We all know what cheese and filth is deep down, and what good friendly play is. You know when you're being that guy and you know when you're not that guy.
I think this is easier for old school RPG dudes to get behind than the one combo to rule them guys. I also believe that if you're into cutting edge meta, tournament slaughter lists and win at all costs, then legends really isn't for you. I am not one of those guys, I'm a self confessed story stinker to to use the garagehammer term. But my local store is now full of WAAC players and filth farmers. It's not about anything other than will it win at a tournament. On the plus side it's those same guys who will pour money in the till like water out of a tap to ensure a winning army.
Tombkings - the general consensus up at the mothership seems to be that they will bring nothing back by bringing them back. So as of now, they're very dead. However never say never. Personally I liked them- I always liked how they were a skeleton army without wraiths and zombies etc. The constructs were also very cool.
AoS is evolving. June is it's third birthday and you can be sure that by the year end we'll see cool stuff and finally say goodbye for good to some old stuff. They've done it before many times and they'll do it again. Just remember that as much as GW love you, they need you to keep spending, that's your side of the bargain.
As a final note, we should bear in mind that had Kirby still been CEO, you'd have none of this, no community pages, no sneaky peeks, no nod to the past. You'd have just been told "this is the new... deal with it".
Wow you hit the GW Fanboy Kool-aid hard don't you? Even spike it with a dash of "How dare people actually like a competitive game" mentality. Here is the thing though some of us use old models....but still buy new ones upgrade our force. I know that's a concept that might be hard for you to wrap your mind around but work with me a little here.
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AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion
in Cities of Sigmar
Posted
I feel like I have a Schrodinger army right now. No idea what is still usable or not. Honestly if this is the way they are going to treat us I'm just going to say ****** it and sell my army. 40k is more popular in the area and magic is something I want to get back into more.