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Rivener

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    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted · Edited by Rivener

    On 8/30/2021 at 8:13 PM, Enoby said:

    All of the data for the Slaanesh survey is ready. I would like to share it but there's one thing that's bugging me that I would really like to do but I am just drawing a blank on how to do it.

    I'd like to run a statistical test to see if the number of people who voted "is significantly overpointed" on a particular model differs significantly from the mean. This would allow us to show which units have the most significant numbers of people thinking they are overcosted. This could also be ran the other way with undercosted, but just looking at the data we have too few people who voted undercosted. 

    It's been a very long time since I've used much besides a two sampled t test, so I thought a one sampled one might work before realising it wouldn't as it would need to look for a mean to compare to the other mean. I'm certain it's an easy test I should be using but it's just slipping my mind. 

    If I were to take a guess, I'd imagine I would just need to calculate Z scores using Z = \frac{x - \mu}{\sigma} which would calculate how many standard deviations the raw score is above or below the mean score. It is 1am so there's a good chance I'm missing something obvious, but the mean number of people who answered "too expensive" per question is (μ) 141.15625, σ: 51.506740684473, and the score for Sigvald is (X) 77. 

    So Sigvald's Z score should be Z = -1.24559.

    So that's all well and good, but if I'm remembering correctly I'll need to consult the Z score table to show significance (we'll say at the 0.05 level, but may go to 0.1 if nothing/very little is significant) which is a pain to read through. In this example:

    The P-Value is .106566.

    The result is not significant at p < .05.

    Before I do that, I don't suppose there are any statisticians reading who can spot any obvious errors I've just made in my above assumption? I'm almost certain there'll be a major one.

    Amazing work, thanks!

    • Thanks 1

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    7 minutes ago, Carnith said:

    Adding on to this, the unit doesn't have to be a hedonite model to get the +1 to wound rolls. She works really well as an ally too. 

    Indeed she does, though I would caution that her bonus to wound is strictly in the combat phase, and only the one, so you do not “double dip” in your opponents combat phase as you can with many other buffs/debuffs.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted · Edited by Rivener

    The only notable offensive buffs in the army are +1 to-hit (dark delusions), +1 to-wound in combat (Shardspeaker), and RR1’s to-hit, which can be done with warscroll daemon hero spells.
    They’re all keyword agnostic, so Marauders, Depraved Bestigors, Gors, Bullgors, Chosen, and yes, Chaos Warriors, lose exploding 6’s but the difference simply isn’t great enough to make up for the existing warscroll cost imbalances.

    Edit: Full rerolls to-hit are huge too, and are provided by the Lord of Pain which is key worded to Hedonite Mortals. StD get full rerolls to-hit and to-wound, though, with Warshrines and Sorcerers.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    39 minutes ago, Jaskier said:Our faction mechanics have been completely redesigned, and our units are obviously priced with the summoning changes in mind. Summoning is Slaanesh' main mechanic, whether we like it or not, so trying to argue that our units shouldn't be priced with it in mind is just foolhardy. 

    The issue remains that Hedonite warscrolls cannot be deliberately overpriced with summoning in mind. StD and BoC marked units can, and will, be used in their stead. The only way forward is getting Hedonite warscrolls into a condition where they are competitive with existing depravity alternatives.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

    I strongly advise against emailing GW without any actual play experience. If you take the time to test and send them thoughtful and well detailed feedback there is a good chance they will listen.

    Some of you may not know me, so I'd like to point to one of my older posts:

    I can't give a lot of detail, but my involvement has increased since then and I can say with a great deal of confidence that the team is very open to and is eager to receive well thought out feedback.

    ............

    No other battletome has summoning potential that even comes close to what Hedonites can do. I acknowledge that not everyone may want to play a summoning army, but for better or worse that is what Hedonites are right now. No other faction can realistically summon 1000 points of reinforcements in a game like Slaanesh can, and as a result the warscrolls must be overcosted to compensate for the summons.

    ............

    Crunching the numbers shows clearly that some of the warscrolls are not good enough compared to other options within the faction. Slaangors and Hellstriders are probably the most obvious culprit. I'll definitely be passing along this feedback quickly because it's clearly not an external balance problem.

    This is a fantastic thing to hear, and I appreciate your coming on the thread to lend your insight. 

    My fear is that the logic to deliberately overcost the warscrolls is not appropriate given that there are many, cheaper, sources of depravity. I appreciate the challenge; you cannot overprice the warscrolls as you’ll also need to overprice StD, BoC, and allied warscrolls. Obviously you can’t do that as it would then impact other armies.

    The line is a thin one to walk, I readily admit. Yet I think it’s evident that there are some warscrolls, not all, but some, that are not walking that line. 

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    5 minutes ago, Enoby said:

    While I understand your concern - and I think that emailing them could help (certainly better than saying nothing if there's a problem) - I think we need to play some games with them first. Not only to see how they feel, but more importantly so the rules designers feel as if the models have been tested properly. 

    If we go to the rules designers and say "these warscrolls look seriously overcosted and unplayable in matched play" they might take it into account, but it's far less convincing than explaining how this high cost affected a game you played. I agree that some of our units seem on the pricey side, but from GW's perspective they need data before they can make any changes.

    Then do both! Email them today saying the matched play costs for most units, especially the newest releases, are not correct based on even the most cursory comparisons to other options in the same army. That a basic mathematical comparison unequivocally agrees with that initial concern.

    Then, say you are going to play with the points as written and provide additional data. These are not mutually exclusive, actually they are best together!

    Just please, PLEASE don’t do nothing. Don’t just assume it’ll all work out in the end, or that silent play testing is the only path forward. Email GW today and tell them you are concerned, and if you need to get games in before you make any final decisions, fine, but tell them at first glance there are some real fears.

    • Haha 1

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    I encourage everyone in this thread who believes the costs and warscrolls are problematic to immediately email GW about this. They can, and will, change the costs if there is sufficient outcry. 
     

    These are the worst costed releases in AoS to date, and possibly the most anticipated. If we make it clear that we are disappointed, that our enthusiasm for buying the models has greatly diminished, and that an early FAQ would restore our faith in the release, we can affect change.

    I know people want to say to wait, but I assure everyone here of this unequivocal reality: the math is clear. These units are not costed for Matched Play.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    4 minutes ago, Rors said:

    Looking at the slangors and while they're insanely fragile, they're also extremely scary. The ability to pick a unit with 3 and roll a 4+ mortal wound for every model is probably the best horde killer in seen in a warscroll. Due to being at 3 inches they can easily do this from behind a screen.

    Very fragile, but if you stick them with glutos, who could also cast gemids for a total of -2 to hit and help them heal with his command ability...  Probably not going to work but I feel like the right combo could make this unit functional.

     

    The ability doesn’t work on enemy models, it works on the number of slaangor models. It’s like one MW, maybe, if any paper thin slaangors even survive.

    • Like 3

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    4 minutes ago, azdimy said:

    To some extent but  i can bring 5 chaos warrior for nearly half the cost of 5 painbringers or twin souls and generate the same amount of depravity with them without paying the in battletome tax

    This exactly. Depravity does (and absolutely should) work on all units, friendly or otherwise. That means the units in this book cannot be intentionally overpriced just to hem in summoning- it’s literally not possible without a fundamental restructuring of every markable chaos unit.

    Thus, summoning and the HoS units must both be fairly costed. Right now there may be an imbalance with overly cheap summons (though we don’t know this with any certainty whatsoever), and there is a clear, mathematically demonstrable imbalance with the pricing of the warscrolls.

    No one needs to take my word for it; just look at some of our allies warscrolls and their costs. These units are directly comparable to existing, cheaper, better units that are themselves bad in the context of their own books let alone the game at large. 

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted · Edited by Rivener

    7 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

    They have an e-mail that can get to the developers and GW constantly advertises it out.  Feel free to write a concise, clear, logical letter to them.  

    I encourage absolutely everyone on this thread to do this. These warscrolls aren’t just bad, they don’t even pass the most basic sniff test. Fiendbloods are more expensive than Dragon Ogors and are approximately half as good. Nobody even uses Dragon Ogors. Think about that: this brand new shiny unit isn’t even half as good as cheaper things that are bad, from an old, bad book.

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    4 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

    Saw the slaangor warscroll on Reddit. It's... Pretty bad for 140 points. Damage output is terrible and they're going to die to a stiff breeze. I'm wondering if maybe there are some really powerful spells or command abilities that we're missing. Maybe a +1 damage or -2 rend or something. There must be something that makes them work. 

    There isn’t. The entire tome has been leaked.

    • Like 1
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    AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion

    in Chaos

    Posted

    3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

    So I've sat down with the book for a few hours. And my conclusion is, its a dud. The poor spell lore, the low dmg on the combat units resembling anything midly elite. The Elite, Warriors and Knights just aren't that tough. 

    The best list is probably plague touched in Ravagers or Despoilers, cabalist is a ****** take. I think Khorne probably got the best overall contribution from S2D units. This is the worst Battletome in some time, probably a 2-3 book on average. If ever there was book that should have had high access to rend -2 it would have been S2D. I think the mentioned Plaguetouched might be a high skill 3-2 build at best. I don't expect to see any Chaos Faction on the top tables in the new year.

    The spell lore is poor? The spell lore that has a point and click always strikes last? And a teleport, even out of combat, when our best unit can easily make the 9” charge? And a spell that, for the first time to my recollection in all of AoS, turns off movement entirely, including pile ins...effectively defeating deathstars nearly by itself? 

    I think it may be one of the best lores in the game to date.
     

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1

    AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, Major said:

    HOWEVER :P

    Prime Necrophoros: This Necrophoros holds aloft Katakros’ personal battle banner. When you use this model’s Supreme Lord of the Bonereaper Legions command ability, it affects friendly Ossiarch Bonereapers units while they are wholly within 36" of this model instead of wholly within 18" of this model.

    Keep Prime Necrophoros alive and add that +1 to the Arkai I say.

    The command ability itself explicitly only adds the save to Mortis Praetorians, regardless of its range. 

    AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    1 minute ago, Major said:

    Take Arkai for example. Put together a Petrifex Elite army with them in there.
    base 4+ save + a 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
    +1 to save rolls from being in Petrifex Elite = 3+ save + 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
    +1 to save rolls from Katakros' command ability = 2+ save + 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
    If Nagash is in army rerolling failed saves of 1, if successful cast of Mystic Shield, rerolling failed saves of 1

    Now squeezing Nagash and Katakros into a list that works is unlikely but Mystic Shield isn't and there may even be other ways to reroll failed saves (which I think there is) in this fashion that aren't springing to mind immediately.

    Katakros only gives +1 save to Mortis Praetorians, not Petrifex.

    • Like 1
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