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gjnoronh
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Posts posted by gjnoronh
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2 hours ago, Sleboda said:
I can say with 100% certainty that this is untrue. I personally know 3 of their testers (and used to be one for old Warhammer myself). All three people have their own focus, but all three very much represent the wider player base.
I also know several of the past playtesters personally the ones I know were widely regarded as amongst the best competitive players of Warhammer in the US. At least a few of the current GW playtesters are members of this forum including Ben Curry who runs this forum. As noted some of those names with writer/playtest credit podium at big events. Sleboda was working for GW in the past possibly when he was a playtester. GW has talked about their internal playtest process somewhat in a Jervis article in WD from January of this year which I think is well worth reading for those interested.
I've also been involved personally as a playtester for companies other then GW. I can only talk about that experience in relation to my background in medical research. In terms of data science it's quite hard to get enough playtesting to get truly statistically useful data. It tends at best to be 'this feels too weak' 'this feels too strong' - not we tried this unit 100 times each against these 20 different armies and had enough results to draw a clear statistical trend. If a game takes 10 minutes and was just two options red vs black you could get the reps in. In a game like AoS with lots of variables (big variance in skill from 'average gamer' to top tier player, 20 or so units per book + various internal variants vs 20 or so opposing armies and 18 or so battleplans in circulation and high variance in terrain found on the tabletops in the player world) and a long (2-3 hour) game time it's quite hard to get enough reps in to provide statistically actionable data.
First weekend after an AoS book drops there's probably thousands or so games played with the book (rough estimate total sales of a book x 10%-25) - a lot of data gets generated quickly! There just isn't a way to get thousands of games or even hundreds of games with a closed internal playtesting model in the context of the timeline for release for AoS. Along those lines I've also in the past worked directly with the head fantasy rules write in various WFB editions on collating questions for the GW FAQ. There were questions that came up during that first month of games that they hadn't thought of (and neither did I when I first read an army book or during my first ten games) that came up because many many many gamers (thousands) playing a game tend to find the edge cases and suboptimally rules that a smaller group (even if it's 50-100 or so ) of gamers/rules writers miss. I bring that experience working with the FAQ team up because it really illustrated for me how a book 'being out in the wild' provided a lot of data that even careful individual readings missed.
Could the internal and external balance accuracy of books be better? Absolutely. But it's hard to get enough playtest data to scientifically guide us to that accuracy. You can get a feel and a general sense from the playtests but it will miss things.
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100% but I'm old and I've been in the hobby a long time. When I was just starting we were proxying using Army men half the time.
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3 hours ago, sorokyl said:
Seeing the small difference between the cool and wa primers, I think corax white will be fine on release day for anyone that already has it. When I run out I will be happy to never go back to it though. Contrast medium on the other hand seems like a must have. Wish it were a larger, cheaper pot.
Don't forget they also recommend varnish
From what I'm hearing from folks who have painted models with the new primers it's a lot smoother then Corax White which is important for the paint to flow appropriately. You are right varnish too if you don't own it.
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36 minutes ago, Lior'Lec said:
Tried ordering a couple bottles of apothecary white this morning, the single color that most interested me, but sadly it’s already listed as “sold out”...
There are going to be plenty in your local FLGS's on release day. Don't forget you are going to want the primer as well and medium
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30 minutes ago, Fulkes said:
It seems in the hands of anyone who is a wizard with a brush this stuff is liquid talent. Anyone want to see how to do NMM gold with it?
https://razzaminipainting.blogspot.com/2019/06/non-metallic-metals-with-contrast-paints.html?m=1
And he said on twitter took him 1/2 the time to do vs his traditional NMM approach. He had some issues with the consistency to get the results he wanted but thought that was an experience issue for him.
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Evaporation occurs due to exchange of liquids (water mostly) from the paint into the air. That occurs between the air in the container above the paint and with exchange of air through the gaps in the space between bottle and paint pot lid to the surrounding air.
Storing it upside down means there is less volume of space for air exchange between the liquid paint and 'air under the lid' as there really isn't any. The liquid paint doesn't diffuse through the gaps around the lid - there is some exchange between paint and the air at those gaps in the lid but it's not as much because the space is less.
By keeping them in an air tight container you are essentially creating a 'humid' environment when you aren't using the paints for an extended period of time. This reduces evaporative loss as well. It won't matter as much if you use them every night but we all have those periods when the paints get put away and we don't think about them for a some time. When I crack that lid after a long period of not using you get a big whiff of paint solvents 'new paint smell' that loss is happening all the time in more open set ups.
How often I add water depends on how the paints look like. In the past I'd just go through the entire collection once every 6 months to a year and open every pot check the status and add water if I think appropriate. I haven't done that for a bit (and I've thrown away a few pots in the last year so that may be related!) Dropper top ones I deal with less often because it's more of a pain in the neck to do.
Its too late when it's a dried out mess, but if things are starting to look a bit too thick in the pot you should add some water. If you are going to always be diluting your paint on the palette anyhow a little more water may keep it at the right consistency to use out of the pot.
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Speaking of old paint still in use - here's a pic from my choices from Purples when I was working on some Blood Bowl Dark Elf stuff. I've got some of my original 1990 GW paints and plenty of my stuff from the 90's and early 2000s. Storage (Upside down in an airtight container for any paint but not inks) and maintenance (checking paints every now and then adding some medium or water to paints getting too thick) helps a lot!
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More from Tyler Mengel on his experiences
http://www.mengelminiatures.com/2019/06/contrast-paints-initial-thoughts.html#more
I'm generally speaking not as happy with most of my Vallejo paints as some other lines. I know some people like them but I've found them inconsistent.
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It's not the same as Lahmian Medium which is essentially your typical artist medium. The contrast paints apparently have a very weird chemistry which is why you can't dilute them with water unlike other acrylic paints I've heard of. So I don't think you could use any medium interchangeably (but who knows)
Related - one of the articles/videos on the GW site went through the science of paint I learned a lot generally speaking not just 'contrast is cool' but how while pigments are pretty much industry standard it's the variances in the medium that tend to drive some of the differing properties of different 'paints.'
In other words a brown brush paint, spray paint, airbrush paint, glaze, ink, wash, techical paint (agrellan earth) and contrast paint all may have the exact same pigments (or very close) but the differences in the medium is what makes them act as very different products. I've been hearing that from some youtube channels in the last year or so that really it's all the same Titanium Oxide for example for white's but it's what else in there as a medium that tends to make differing paints act differently.
Agrellan earth apparently was an accidental discovery when they had a new medium GW was testing that contracted so much during drying it cracked - they ended up making a technical paint out of it as the effect was cool for cracked earth.
I suspect that means a chunk of the differences in cost for paints containing the same pigments (i.e. cheap craft paint or house paints vs miniature paints) is the medium. Scale 75 is considered a premier line of paints but it's very expensive it's probably generally speaking not because of better pigments (but it could be a somewhat different mix) it's because of a great medium for suspending those pigments and applying them to a miniature surface in a way that ends with a pleasing result.
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He does say it's for his regular friendly games. I think Wanderers even with a not rules as written minor buff are still so far down from the top of the tournament curve it wouldn't matter for a prep game (and a tournament prep game against Wanderers probably isn't good practice for what you are likely to see at a competitive event.)
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14 hours ago, Sleboda said:
It is true that I had considered the alternate uses for the paints, probably having seen some of the same videos that you have.
That said, it still seems to me that the price is excessive, especially since if I don't use them as the liberal one thick coat way of speed painting, and just as an accent technique, then they really are even more costly. In other words, I could probably get largely similar effects to those sometimes-uses with other less expensive layer/wash/glaze paints I already own.
I dunno. I hear ya, and actually appreciate the encouragement (especially since I was sooooo hyped about getting all of them). I'm just disappointed in the price point.
Note to mods: This is not a price "rant." As someone who worked in GW sales for years, I'm as tired if hearing people whine about prices as anyone. They are free to set their price on the luxury goods they make. I'm simply bummed out and explaining why this price for this product has derailed my once certain purchase of the whole range (plus the attendant expansion to my HobbyZone racking system).
That being said buddy I'm never a buy it all on release guy (even for armies) I'm going to try it out with a few here and there. Given that I've got more pots of paint already then I know what to do with (some going back 29 years in age!) no reason to buy say 30 new pots at once.
I still feel some of the stuff I've seen from folks just splodging some on during Warhammer Fest on twitter is just spectacular in context of the the lack of time and skill involved. My paint skills are good - there are lots of awards on my trophy shelf, but my output as I get older keeps decreasing due to kids and work. If I can get fast but still looks good initial layers I'm quite happy to buy a couple of colors and give it a shot.
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Joe for a painter like you I think you can get some really cool fast effects using them like a wash in the amounts you would use a wash. Some of the videos linked are basically doing that they don't seem to be gobbing it on.
I don't know how far this stuff is going to stretch per pot - I've watched videos of people putting it on and it doesn't actually seem excessive (it's not like the old school dip method!) but we're going to have to try it out.
Will you need 2-3 pots to paint an entire 2K AoS army even if so that's probably worth it for the time savings - but that's me.
For say a Blood Bowl team (I'm planning on doing the halflings in metallic Contrast green to match the dice) I would guess a pot would be way more then enough. And I will try out the Contrast White on them as it's such a pain in the ass to paint normally.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Blood-Bowl-Halfling-Team-Dice-2019
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Event Title: AoS 2000 points 1 day event
Event Author: gjnoronh
Calendar: Events USA
Event Date: 06/23/2019 12:00 PM
I am not the organizer but am sharing.
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Just Games Rochester New York
1601 Penfield Rd #750, Rochester, NY 14625, USAhttps://www.justgamesrochester.com/events/
The realms beckon, and the armies of our players answer! - 2000 points, matched play. - Scenarios will be pulled from the 2018 Generals Handbook, along with a randomly rolled realm each game. - Terrain rules are NOT in effect (terrain placed as part of the table.) However, terrain pieces that are brought with an army (Loonshine ect) are fine. - Forgeworld units, along with White Dwarf rules will be allowed for this event. - Check in at 12:00, round one at 12:30. Entry is 15$, prizes for First, Second, Third, and Best Painted.Organizer: Just Games EventsJust Games Events -
Agree entirely. Was responding to the idea someone out there had bad results with a high quality tool means the tool doesn't work.
I'm very excited for these new Contrast products. I'll take faster, easier to get basic painting done any day which hopefully lets people work on the next level of painting skill at their convenience.
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A new technical paint isn't instant talent. There is a learning curve on how to use it. But you've got multiple people who have used it with good results it's hard to argue it's a marketing trick by GW. That's including Sleboda who aside from his trophy case, has published as many tutorial articles in White Dwarf on painting tips for gamers as anyone else. (I've played against his stuff on the tournament scene and it's beautiful)
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There was quite a long and involved thread on the pros and cons of a basic calculator approach to points some months ago here:
There is an excerpt on the first page from White Dwarf many many years ago on the pros and cons of calculator and on the last page from this last year from White Dwarf on the same sort of issue. GW used a rough calculator (and included it in the rules set) back in 2nd/3rd ed fantasy around 30 years ago they have always noted while it's a nice place to start it's not as accurate as playtesting in the context of the rest of the army. They've publicly said it's a basis for discussion but not completely accurate in the recent AoS era as well.
Please read the WD article with screenshots at the end of the thread for their more recent thoughts.
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There were five in my FLGS this week.
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16 hours ago, dekay said:
But nothing really changed, didn't it? Mantic Ghouls will still look good in FeC army despite it having a non generic name. We might argue it's because FeC are made up of older models but hell, look at Mantic Naiads, that's some good Idoneth material right there. Everything AoS has to offer is nearly as easy to proxy as earlier WFB stuff was.
So while i agree AoS was definitely a push towards originality and more unique character i don't think that making it harder to find alternatives and easier to trademark was a big factor here. They seem to genuinely want to sell more by making cooler models, not by purposefully starving out competition.
But the new armies released for AoS including the posterboy Stormcast (and , Fireslayers and even Idoneth) aren't generic, even Khorne really pushed the chaos aesthetic in slightly unique directions (there are Khorne symbols on everything which is copyrightable) . They certainly have used existing older IP to release books and made most of the older IP playable if in nothing else Grand Alliance system. But what they are expending resources in building new molds and IP for is largely less 'generic fantasy world' and more AoS world.
There are certainly 'counts as' switches but Mantic hasn't released a SCE /Idoneth/Fireslayers equivalent yet and suspect they won't.
I'm not suggesting it's either or by any means. But timing of AoS a year or so after Chapterhouse and the trends in the rest of GW's offerings (40K) suggests to me they are trying to put their own unique stamp on things - you can make a cool generic fantasy elf lord or you can have a cool elf lord rising up out of a wave. Either would sell by rule of cool but one is easier to protect as your own unique design.
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12 hours ago, Jetengine said:
I wish people would drop this ridiculous "AOS was made for copyright" theory.
It was Money. It was always Money. Fantasy wasnt selling enough. Paints were selling more then Fantasy. So it was either revamp or kill it off.
Copyright protection is one part of the money issue.
Mantic was doing a lot of business copying GW army style and selling lower quality lower priced models to people playing WFB. Kings of War 1st edition had almost zero players almost all of Mantics sales were to Warhammer Fantasy Players. No one cared about whatever Kings of War rules/fluff was associated with their ghouls - they were using them to be part of the players games in the Warhammer world.
The Chapterhouse legal decision really made it clear GW couldn't copy right non specific tropes in the general world of fantasy or science fiction themes.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/ChapterHouse_Studios
Given that Warhammer Fantasy was largely based on D and D that was largely based on Tolkien, GW didn't have a lot of room to argue the key components of the world were copy rightable. AoS gave them a chance to move in their own more unique IP direction, most of the releases have pushed things further from Tolkien/D and D tropes to something more GW home grown.
So yes the big issue is money -but having people undercut your sales to your player base with very similar models (that you can't take trademark action against) cuts a chunk of GW's sales for Fantasy from them. There are other issues for why WFB wasn't selling in particular that it wasn't new player friendly.
AoS on launch was easier and open to be played at a smaller scale then WFB ( so more new player friendly) but by now it's a highly complex game with fairly large army sizes for the horde armies and a fairly stable 2000 point default game size. So I think those benefits for sales in AoS vs WFB haven't been consciously continued as AoS matures.
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22 hours ago, The World Tree said:
Those aren't just the contrast paints. But the contrast paints plus usual highlighting techniques. Apparently not the Plague Marine.
That is not what the people who posted the pics said. Particularly Ben. Their actual tweets are linked to with exactly what they said when they posted the pics. If you have more information then I do please share. I've seen lots of pics this weekend where people just said "I experimented with the new Contrast range and this is what I thought, here's my pics"
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1 minute ago, Battlefury said:
Could you share that picture?
Also see this
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The pics I've seen on Twitter from people who have actually tried it out during the weekend were really amazing. Most of it was middle of the pack at the GT level shading and highlighting.
Ben our host here at TGA shared on twitter a mini he did in 5 minutes that was better (in terms of shading and highlighting) then most table top work at the store level. Still needed details and some cleaning up but could be with batch painting efficiencies something like 5-10 minutes a mini (his was a sequitor so not a tiny little thing either.) That would be amazing. Units done in an evening, maybe an army painted in a week or two?
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I'm headed to Miami in July for a brief stop as part of a vacation. I'm not going to have a lot of free time but any gaming stores in the Port of Miami area?
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Heads up Crossroads is 5 months away and is now 65% or so full. It's not a huge event but is a lot of fun particularly with the BYOB aspect.
My experience providing GHB feedback to the design team and my thoughts on GHB2019
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted · Edited by gjnoronh
Also for what it's worth I know that some of the current playtesters for AoS /40K are the head TOs for the largest highest stakes events for those systems in the world. At least two of them have a podcast and one of them talked pretty in depth about his playtest experiences during their podcast review of an army book. No I'm not going to say which podcasts - or events but if you are a serious competitive player you've absolutely heard about their events and probably tried to parse their rules set and results.
Maybe those guys running those events don't understand the top levels of competitive play - but having heard them talk through their thoughts about books I think they've got at least as good of a grasp (and far better then 99% of people) then anyone else I've heard/read talking about it.