Jamopower

February 2

My guess based on my experience from 6/7th (of which this game very closely resembles) is that the tournament armies would be full of hard hitting stuff with narrow frontage (single characters on (flying) mounts, monsters (especially dragons, which seem to be much stronger than ever before, and also much stronger than most of the other monsters in ToW), chariots and cavalry (which is wider). Those are best countered with chaff (i.e. the skirmishers, fast cavalry, chaos hounds and such), which again is countered with shooting (which also helps against chariots etc.). That's then supported by (cheap) infantry, depending a bit on the army.

As can be seen, Dwarfs don't tick a lot of those boxes...

February 2

2 hours ago, Marcvs said:

Glad to read this. I am playing two games at 1k pts tomorrow myself with my Wood Elves:

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Wood Elf Realms - 1000pts Sisters - [1000pts]

## Main Force [1000pts]

### Characters [179pts]
Shadowdancers [85pts]:
• 1x Shadowdancer: Spear of Loec, Hand Weapon

Waystalkers [94pts]:
• 1x Waystalker: Additional Hand Weapon, Asrai Longbow, General, Swiftshiver Shards, Hand Weapon

### Core [250pts]
Deepwood Scouts [75pts]:
• 5x Deepwood Scout: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon

Glade Guard [70pts]:
• 5x Glade Guard: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon
Fire and Flee

Glade Riders [105pts]:
• 5x Glade Rider: Asrai Longbow, Cavalry Spear, Elven Steed, Hand Weapon, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon
Reserve Move

### Special [361pts]
Sisters Of The Thorn [134pts]:
• 1x Handmaiden of the Thorn
• 1x Standard Bearer
• 5x Sister Of The Thorn: Blackbriar Javelines, Hand Weapon, Steeds of Isha, Hand Weapon

Wardancers [85pts]:
• 5x Wardancer: Additional Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon

Wild Riders [142pts]:
• 1x Wild Hunter
• 5x Wild Rider: Hand Weapon, Hunting Spear, Light Armour, Steeds of Kornous, Hand Weapon

### Rare [210pts]
Great Eagles [60pts]:
• 1x Great Eagle: Serrated Maw, Wicked Claws

Great Eagles [60pts]:
• 1x Great Eagle: Serrated Maw, Wicked Claws

Waywatchers [90pts]:
• 5x Waywatcher: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon

The list is just a collection of MSU really, based on what I have already painted/rebased for my WInterheart recycling project. Here's the latest entries:

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My opponent will play dwarves with 3 heroes, 3 units (17 longbeards and 10 quarrellers + 10 thunderers) ad 2 cannons, but really, we'll be mostly learning how to play 😅

My first game was quite similar, I had msu wood elves chosen with a feeling of what was good in 6th edition against a dwarf longbeard bunker for which I couldn't do much but hopefully those wild riders help there...

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Personally, I am interested to see how The Old World will develop in a tournament setting, though. Just because I have a hunch that tournament play will look pretty unrecognizable to casual players. I want to see some of the absurd stuff that's going to get cooked up.

I'm also interested in how it will turn out. I playead a lot of tournaments back in 6/7th edition and the "casual" games were also heavily effected on that.

February 2

I got my second 1000p game in yesterday. This time I played with Dwarfs against Greenskins. I had 16 warriors, 15 miners, 8 hammerers with rune of battle and thane, a dragon slayer with some runes, bolt thrower, gyrocopter, 8 rangers and 8 thunderers. Pretty formidable amount of units for 1000 points. On the other side were Warboss with 20 boyz, lvl 2 shaman, some skirmishing goblin archers(!), unit of common goblins, 20 goblin infantry, boar chariot and a giant.

i have to say that I like how propert feeling armies can be included in 1000p. Sure my units were lacking in ranks, but they didn’t feel anyhow meaningless. The hammerers and rangers chopped the big orc block to pieces after the rangers counter charged to flank, which was the defining moment.

I had some luck with my bolt thrower causing 4 wounds on the giant and two on chariot, that really turned the game for me. The giant smashed through my miners in a single turn and the chariot was also very scary. Some luck also there thst the chariot lost the other two wounds by the foot of gork under which it overrun after failing restrain

Magic didn’t much this time either, the foot of gork was the only spell the shaman managed to cast before I ran over him with the gurocopter.
dwarfs feel pretty solid, at least in this kind of casual environment. They also feel more mobile than ever before with the marching columns and skirmishers. The miners managed to march midway on the table first turn, a speed record for sure!

February 1

23 hours ago, Gotz said:

I've written some stuff that contradicts what I believe are the principles that determine what gets made to order, but I want to believe XD

Iconic/Nostalgic

Has a profile on the army list

Is not a named character

Dwarves:

Gotrek & Felix

gyrocopter

Thorgrim

Bugman

High Elves:

"snake dragon" (Imrik)

Tyrion & Teclis

Griffon (Eltharion)

Chaos:

Two Headed Dragon (Galrauch)

Slambo

Harry the hammer

random assortment of champions

Beastman:

Minotaurs

Wood Elves

4th ed "snake dragon"

Orion & Ariel

Treemen

Metal Dryads

Empire

Halfling Hot-pot

Steam Tank

Knight Grandmasters

War Altar

Knights Panther/White Wolf, etc..

Forgeworld stuff from Black Pass

Good list! The marauder giant made me hope we could get marauder era dwarfs. The marauder longbeards or crossbowmen would be instant buy for me (and I believe many others). Archaon is probably pretty sure bet for Chaos.

January 29

I would say the latter with smaller units make more sense (depends of course a bit what you're expecting to face). 30 witch elves will make a very juicy target to something like a Lord on a dragon (or first charging chariots) that has high enough initiative in charge to kill enough that you don't get to strike back enough to get through the armor and continue it on the next rounds. Against smaller units, it will have to work more to earn its points, as it will not get easily through a unit with a champion and the multiple rounds of munching through the units give less reward than the one big and juicy target.

January 29

2 hours ago, Ogregut said:

You need to be 5 wide at least to get a rank bonus for regular infantry. Heavy infantry only need to be 4 wide.

Dwarfs are almost all heavy infantry, don't remember about elven spearmen, but at least the elites were heavy as well.

Edit: Checked, I was wrong, the elves are regular infantry, too bad...

January 29

23 hours ago, Sabush said:

Interesting!
I will need to rethink my formations a bit.
But would like to play a couple of games first before deciding.
Another factor that could weigh in is the number of units I want to have in the frontline.
3+ units 7 models wide takes up a lot of space on the board and could be very cumbersome.

With six wide you are also "always" getting full attacks. I believe 4 wide is very viable option as well for units like elven spearmen (edit: had only checked phoenix guard and the others were regular) or dwarfs, where few additional s3 attacks won't make much difference to the static resolution of keeping the max ranks as long as possible. And I also believe that having two units of 16 is often much better than having one unit of 30 with those units.

January 26

I got to play the first game. It was awesome. We played 1000 points, I had wood elves against Dwarfs. I had two units of archers, small units of dryads and wardancers, 15 eternal guards (without shields as I noticed during the game that they need to be bought separately ), unit of glade riders, riding noble and a lvl2 wizard. Dwarfs had 15 longbeards, 8 rangers with shields, 15 or so slayers, 2 individual gyrocopters, king with bearers and a battle standard. I lost, quite badly Dwarfs are the army I played the most 6th edition along with Lizards, so it was nice to see them in action as well.

Some initial thoughts:

It plays very much like 6th, there are some notable differences, but it felt like playing 6th edition
Fall back in good order changes the dynamics dramatically, my eternal guard lost combats against the longbeards by 6 and 7 and still held for next rounds due to this. For the dwarfs with their ld9 it is even better (or would have been, had I won some combats...). This will impact cavalry and other "shcok charge" units as they can be counter charged next turn. I find this an excellent addition. It's also a stealth outnumber bonus as double unit strength counters this.
There was also one quirk that I hadn't realized earlier. If you flank an unit and it falls back in good order, you (likely) lose the flank charge for the next round as the withdrawing unit moves first.
4+ save is a (very) good save, I couldn't budge the rangers even by charging them simultaneously to flank with dryads and front with wardancers (S3 against T4 followed by 4+ save is tough). On the other hand, in general the lighter armour for expensive cavalry will also have an impact as even archers will be dangerous for them.
Close order heavy infantry was very difficult to handle for the elves, you can't break the ranks and are always one behind in combat res from the start
Skirmishers for dwarfs is a great addition
Elven spearmen are still elven spearmen
90 degree free pivot is a lot worse than free reform for the fast cavalry
Spells were not easy to cast, ranges were short and having the mage in an unit limited the targets, but I don't think the game gave a good indication on how they actually work. lvl4 mage looks to be annoying for dwarfs.
Archers were good, volley fire is a great addition (skirmishing crossbows were also good)
Initiative didn't matter that much, elves got to strike charging dwarfs simultaneously, but mostly it is still charger who strikes first (besides special rules such as great weapons and strike first)
Banners are worth taking more as they are cheaper and give less points (and due to fall back in good order, you don't always lose them). This is also a great thing.

January 25

32 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Personally, I was kind of surprised to see the TOs feel the need to add an extra anti-spam measure, when AoS tournaments by and large get by without one and TOW list building is already way more restrictive than AoS list building.

I guess it's a consequence of TOW not being an objective control-style game? AoS would probably see more spam if kill points were the only thing that matters.

The gazillion speed bumps that the no restrictions allow have a much bigger impact than in AoS as you can't go around them. It's why things like great eagles are restricted already in the core rules.

Also armies full of chariots and monsters are quite horrible, even if they wouldn't be the best possible lists. I played in 6th ed tournament against High elven army that had a dragon, 4 great eagles, 8 chariots, 3x5 knights and 2 heroes on eagles. It was one of the most horrible ones (though it was a draw in the end).

January 25

1500 is great, the table is smaller and the units larger and cheaper, so it makes a lot of sense. Also the army composition doesn't anymore open up completely new options in 2000 points so it's no longer a magical threshold.

January 25

I have a feeling that concerning dragons, they are so good no matter what save and ward they have that in a competitive environment you have to have some strategy to deal with them and in a casual group playing always with a dragon will get you a reputation

January 24

In the numberhammering it’s easy to forget how difficult is it to get your good unit where it needs to be in classic Warhammer. That’s where the lizards (and wood elves, Tzeentch daemons, Vampire counts, Chaos, etc) have always been good at. It’s a game of movement, not game of calculating how many attacks you will dish out.

January 24

I have a feeling that you Kitsumy and Doko haven’t played much of 6th edition?

Lizards were good at everything and poisoned blowpipes on cheap skirmishers were always one of the strongest things. I don’t see why this wouldn’t still be the case, especially with the in overall worse saves.

Archers also look to me pretty good in this game, and the repeater x-bow dark elves (as always).

January 24

7 minutes ago, Doko said:

error , with armor of blood and shield then you have save 4+ of dragon or ryder untill you start killing things.

fine for you? sure,but not fine for dark elf players that would preffer have save2 allways as the high elfs and that if we ignore that high elfs have regen 5+ and dark elfs cant get it and is huge.

again as all in the legacy vs core,isnt umplayable but is a big gap betwen legacy vs cores

You can buy you dragon lord full plate, shield and sea dragon cloak and he will have the 2+ save when it matters the most: during shooting phase.

January 24

39 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

noooo how can u say lizardmens are worse.

they are the slowest army in the game, whose biggest strenght always was the magic, and being toughter than most, and with cold blood as signature making them the most staying ( not going amywhere) army coupled with dwarfs.

now this game heavy toned down magic, init is most important than ever, cold blood dont work in break tests or stupidity test, the removal os scaly skin..... isnt hard to guess what would happen

lizardmens would have need an increase in durability across the board to make up for being punched always before doing anything. but they save far worse than always and got a ridiculous increase in points ( saurus were always around 11-12p, now they are worse in this game and cost 15!) when most of other books i read have keep mostly same points.

dinosaurs hit rates are a joke too, stegadon at ws2( since they have to use skink ws)????? carnosaurs hitting at 5s to monstersheros etc

I played a lot of 6th ed with Lizardmen and they were very broken army back then. Especially cold blooded was ridiculously good. I however still have strong faith that screen of skinks backed up with heavy hitting dinosaurs (that have more variety than before) is still a very good combination.

I also don’t believe iniative will really matter that much. Getting rid of chariots and dragons (perhaps with poisoned blowpipes) will matter much nore.

January 24

On theiryhammer side (and by reading peoples woes) it looks initially like chaos, lizards and vampires have been toned down a bit from what they were in 6th, while high and dark elves, dwarfs and beastmen are bit better, which in overall sounds pretty promising as it would go pretty well according to their ”tiers” in the 6th ed. Wood elves look to be pretty same as they were, other armies I haven’t looked in too much detail as I don’t have them.

January 24

Almost everything in the game has changed a bit, so maybe it is a good idea to actually see how it goes on the battlefield. For sure there will be bad choices and good choices, it's Warhammer after all, but hard to say how things work without playing for this complicated game.

January 24

26 minutes ago, Doko said:

in fact serrated maw is a downgrade because you must waste one attack of ap2 in one maw with same s but 0 ap.

yes black dragon have better breath,but i think NOBODY gonna waste 500 points in a dragon to do breaths attacks and dont go to melle.

also the wyches who was my favourite units,have lost everything.

-they have lost the ward(now the cauldron have a 10% chance to give it when before was 100%)

-they have lost the reroll wounds rolls

-they lost 2ws

-lost 2 initiative and attack first(in some editions)

in general the wyches have gone from be hard to play(frenzy) and with bad defense(ws 6,attack first and ward5) but with huge damage that killed everything that they touch(3 attacks rerrolling all misses and all the wounds rolls with attack first i6 and ws6 ) to be the worst defense of tow with 1w t3 and 0 saves and also weak attack with no rerrolings,worse ws and while having same problem of frenzy.

the nerfs to wyches plus the huge nerfs to the cauldron have killed the wytches.

old cauldron was a allways with zero counterplay or chance,a ward plus rerollimg wounds.

new cauldron must choose betwen the ward or others buffs and now must do a spell with around a 50 % chance to cast and then the enemy have a 75% chance to cancell it with his lvl4 mage doing in practice useless this cauldron.

who tougth that have bound spells in models that arent wizards is balanced when enemy can cancell them with +4 bonus? these bound spells mustnt can be cancelled or change it to a leadership test as empire priests or khemri so enemy cant cancell it.

rigth now everyone is starting to do numbers and see that is imposible do these bound spells with only +2 models while enemy have +4 to cancell it

You should be comparing the troops to the 6th edition book, not to the latest (in various degree broken) versions. The game is clearly a new edition of the 6th edition game, which has some additions from 7th and 8th (and plenty from Warhammer Historicals).

January 24

43 minutes ago, Sception said:

I think it's more to depower dwarf & empire lists that jump from 3 great cannons max to 6 at 2k points, rather than any of the 0-1 per 1k options. 6 great cannons isn't necessarily game breaking, but it does powerfully discourage otherwise cool & fun big centerpiece monsters.

The 1999 talk is mostly just buzz & discussion I've been hearing from some youtube folks, nothing concrete. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some 1999 point events just to test it, though I currently expect 2k to win out.

Personally I kind of prefer the harsher trade offs. Having to choose between fighty and magic lords just sounds more interesting for more factions than an easy default choice of one of each. A world where not every army has a level 4 wizard is also one where level 2 and 3 wizards can shine a bit more. But that's just me.

I made my first list yesterday and feel that 1500 points would already be big enough for me

January 24

16 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Don't you need to be in a formation "that is wider than it is deep" in order to be in "Combat order" and get the CR bonus?

(p.101)

If you read the second sentence in the combat order chapter, after the one you have underlined, it should be quite clear

Now again it of course leaves room for argument if single model actually has ranks or files.

January 24

17 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

They don't get +1 CR as they are a single model. You need at least 2 models to claim +1 CR.

They reason they have the close order is to do with movement. They cannot move like they did in 8th edition and are now bound to the same rules as all other close order units with the exception that they can make a single turn of up to 90 degrees at the end of movement.

But currently there is nothing from stopping them from getting the +1CR. They are units because it says that all single models should be classed as units and they are in combat order because units of one have as many ranks as they have files (i.e. 1 of both). The chariots and monsters even have the lumbering rule that specifically says that they follow all the rules for close order (of which one is having the +1 CR from combat order). I don't think (or more so I hope) that it is intentional, but that's how it is now until there is an errata for that.

January 24

4 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

But Blood Dragons could still cast.

And there's also nothing in the Vampiric Gifts that really pushes towards a Blood Dragon playstyle.

I'd say that the flayed hauberk (and in general the option for taking armor, and possibility to not be a wizard, for your vampire) is the "blood dragon bloodline".

One thing that popped out, now that I have had time to read the rules properly, is the +1 CR from combat order. As it is now written, it looks like chariots and monsters get it as well (they have a special rule that specifically classes them to have close order). For single models (like last members of units) it's bit more ambiguous as there is mention about units of two or more, but also bread statement that all single models are units (and single models don't have their own rules). Having multiple chariots that disrupt ranks and each give stackable +1 to combat resolution sounds a bit broken. Now matter how difficult the maneuvering is for them now.

January 24

3 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

There is an objective loss of flavour in the VC book but it still looks interesting.

There's also the weird oversight of a Vampire being unable to cast while wearing armour which is a thing they've always been able to do. Otherwise I forsee every Vampire Lord wearing the Flayed Hauberk.

In 6th only Blood dragons could do that, which is clearly the version everything is based on.

January 23

19 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

While that is true they did mention zombies in the horde explanatory section😂

Dark elves are also mentioned on some of the first pages of the book...

January 23

Speaking of model numbers, I really like the potential for smaller point sizes. The minimum sizes are small and units of 12 can already get full rank bonuses. Also you get full options in 1500 points and the percentages make the list building much more flexible. I have a feeling that I will be playing more ~1500 than 2000 point games as our club night is on Thursday evenings and there is thus a time constraint present.

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