Jamopower
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Posts posted by Jamopower
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On 4/6/2024 at 6:20 PM, Sarouan said:
6 monstruous infantriy miniatures in a front line takes a lot of space on deployment and is hard to manoeuver depending of the terrain around. It can certainly be more easily avoided because of that. I'd lean more towards 5 or 4.
Maximizing attacks isn't the only factor, sadly. Like its predecessor Battle, TOW depends a lot on how you move / deploy your units : if they're deployed badly or blocked by a piece of terrain and lose precious time to change formation, that can cost you the game.
That's why I tend not to use too much a wide front, especially in armies that have a lot of units (like greenskins).In addition, 6 wide monster unit will many times mean that three of them strike only once as opponent can easily charge them with a narrow frontage unit like a ridden monster, fir which they could be a very juicy target
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I’m hoping for 5th edition metal beastmen. They are some of the best models, but very hard to get nowadays (and I sold mine for cheap back in the day).
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I also have a strong feeling that the other army of infamy would be the imperial dwarfs. Which I have to say would be very tempting for me to get some Imperial units to accompany my stunties.
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I don’t really think there’s universal ”optimum size” anymore. There are so many possibilities for free reforming, that the units will change their setup many times over the game. So marching to the enemy in more narrow frotnage to make the manouvering easier (maybe even in marching column). And then reforming/collapsing into wider battleline as the lines contact. And there the width is thenagain influenced by lots of variances. What you are facing, are you trying to be flanked, is there room, is there enemy skirmishers harrying the flanks and limiting your options to bring more fighters to the front etc.
it actually sort of feels like more formalized version of AoS or Mesbg battlelines. -
21 hours ago, JerekKruger said:
These ones maybe? They date back to 5th edition I think (maybe even 4th?).
In 6th I think you were meant to use Quarrellers too, but there were even fewer options to make them actually look like rangers.
To be honest, the bugman’s rangers don’t look like actual rangers either. ’Ranger’ gives me a hooded Aragorn feel, I believe there aren’t any GW Warhammer dwarfs with those looks ever made. Well maybe some in 3rd edition or so.
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2 hours ago, Beliman said:
Old people prefer Historical wargames?
Well older in this context would be more around 40 year (or 30-50) olds (where I fit neatly myself).
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I have felt that The Old World and Horus Heresy are catering for a bit different target audience than 40k and AoS. HH and ToW are more akin to "wargames" (i.e. related to historical wargames, and try to have some sort of resemblance on actual battlefield) while 40k and AoS are more of "strategy battle games" which are closer to playing Starcraft on tabletop. So in very straightened curves version ToW and HH are for older (and higher income, but smaller) audience than 40k and AoS.
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16 hours ago, Wnerva said:
there are units with low LD, and the rule allows marching. So its not that unuseful.
I believe drilled is mostly an option for the elite infantry (e.g. many dwarf units) that have pretty high Ld to start with. It has some use, but I'd say quite niche for the additional cost.
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2 hours ago, Sception said:
Yeah, but in most previous editions cool big monster riding heroes were trash, easilly pulled down by a couple cannon shots or even some small arms fire. Combined statlines is the obvious solution to that, and imo they've mostly done a good job of it. The armor saves were combined in the wrong way, but even so imo they're closer to where they should be now than they have been in... forever maybe. Not counting AoS of course.
Maybe in 8th, but in 6/7th edition they were really strong. Especially the Tzeentch dragon with the 3++ against shooting. There was just a big tradeoff between having magic or monster lord, that usually was favoured for magic.
edit: and by very strong, I mean not un-killable, but so strong that it needed to be dealt, and one of the reasons those cannons (or 4 bolt throwers) were there to start with, were the (high) possibilites of facing a dragon, or some other strong monster such as stegadon, treeman, greater daemon or a steam tank.
The chaos dragon was particularly strong, because it was so hard to kill and there was hardly anything else in the army (common set-up was lord on dragon, one or two disc riding exalted champions, three chariots as core, some screamers and a hellcannon, (which was also very hard to kill and expensive). The army was very strong because of points denial, they didn't need to kill that much, because it was so hard to get more than few hundred victory points of them. I'd imagine the current dragon lords (especially when you can get two in 2000 points), would work in very similar fashion, though it changes things that it is in general more difficult to get points in this edition.
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2 hours ago, Wnerva said:
I heard that argument,
and i still think that this reform happens in charge moves, and not in some imaginary subturn that dont exist.
Coz before charge moves (subturn where You phisically move Your miniatures) there is only Declare Charges.
We just need to w8 and see.
Reading the drilled rules feels that it is supposed to be possible to first make the redress and then charge, but it's just written bit messily as "move" is not defined properly. It's also how it works in Warhammer Ancient Battles. Also, if it doesn't work during charge, it is pretty seldomly useful ability.
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On 2/18/2024 at 2:57 PM, Sception said:
imo mounted monsters should use the lower of the monster or the rider's armor save. the mounts save then becomes a cap on the rider's armor save, but there's still a reason to give the rider armor or a shield.
Yes, this would be exactly what I have been thinking as well.
In overall having dragons with 2+ save (and ward saves) is very strange design choice when they have made lots of effort on having the 2+ save otherwise for very few cavalry units and reduced the saves (and armour piercing) in general over the whole game. Especially as in the past editions having any additional protection for flying monsters was very limited and they were usually pretty formidable even then. The Tzeentch Eye that gave 3+ ward against shooting is the only one that comes to my mind from 6th, and it was very broken.
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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:
Different topic, Dragons:
Imo dragons should get an armour hard-cap of 4+. It makes them beefy but far from invincible (stacking regeneration and a ward on top is solid) - so the chaos dragon and the Elven Dragons need some tweaking imo.
I’m pretty sure it will eventually be erratad to something along that way (i.e. Mounted monsters to use their own save always). It feels such an oversight in the rules.
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Most monsters luckily have quite bad armour save, so they are not that difficult to kill. It’s only the dragons and such that are very hard, and I don’t think Skaven (or other Legacy lists) are in particularly different situation to any other army out there in dealing with them. Hordes of expendable troops with high leadership (remember that your general spreads ld10) should at least be quite good on making them work on getting their points back.
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Almost everything in the game has been nerfed, so I wouldn't give up to soon.
Especially compared to the 8th edition.
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Got the first game in with my new beasts, against Daemonsnof Nurgle. 1500 points and both had new armies, so we only got 5 rounds in the 3 or so hours we had available.
Some highlights:
-My beastlord failed stupidity (from the gaze of gods) twice in a row with ld10 (and then broke from combat and failed to rally)
-Great unclean one is a tough nut to crack
-Minotaurs and Dragon ogres are very good, 33 plague bearers charged three dragon ogres from front and lost by three. Then got totally destroyed by the minotaurs counter charge to the flank.
-Ld7 is not very good in the game (big surprise :D)
-Magic did again next to nothing, even with combined 10 levels plus a bound spell on the table. In total 3 wounds from magic missiles and some buffs that the GUO didn’t really need. 2 lvl 2s against single lvl4 actually meant that one bray shaman got to cast his spells pretty freely (and the other one as well as the lvl4 greater daemon couldn’t dispel from combat), though the spells didn’t do anything in the game as s3 doombolts don’t really matter against t5 beasts of nurgle
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2 hours ago, Ogregut said:
What armies are people working on?
Anyone else dug out some old projects or found dusty boxes from yesteryear?
Or even printed a new army.
Lets see what's cooking on people's hobby tables!
I have quite a lot of projects going on parallel. I got a bit of headstart on ToW as I got back to WHFB 6th edition already '22 summer after playing couple of games with a friend that had been on a long break from miniature games (since 6th ed basically).
The current status of each:
-Vampire counts, I just got 2000 point army completed start of Winter. Calculated my models and it's now 1900 points, so I have to do some strengthening. Warghulf is surely one thing that I'll add now when it's available in the army list.
-Wood elves, For these I have been steadily adding units. The models are all 5th edition or older. Just finished some archers and a wardancer command from Grenadier.
-Dwarfs, my original army, dug them out after a long while and even got a game already, painted some miners and currently doing a block of ironbreakers. Had collected surprisingly many models for them since the last game...
-Lizardmen, no plans yet, but I have around 80 metal saurus to add at some point
-Chaos, mostly Beastmen that I have been painting originally for 6th over the winter. Just agreed a first game for them tomorrow. I also have a small warrior detachment that I can field as allies now. They are originally for AoS, so waiting for the bases to get back in stock.
-High elves, I found out that I had bought enough high elves in various second hand deals that I actually have 2000 points of them already. I have couple of elven armies with bit different theme originally done for different games (Oathmark, Saga), that I have to still think how to incorporate everything into a coherent force. These are mostly in "to be started" level.
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9 hours ago, Tonhel said:
I use since december 2023 the Elegoo ABS 2 resin and in my experience it as durable as plastic from GW and Victrix. The newest resins from various companies are really good. Imo, 3d printing is the future for our hobby.
For many, the building aspect of the plastic kits is the most important part of the hobby. I don't believe that can be ever matched by resin (or metal). It's like comparing Legos to Matchbox cars, while both are great, they are different experiences.
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I believe everyone would prefer to face 3x10 gladeguard instead of 6x5. Even if they wouldn’t be the most powerful thing out there. Though I do feel that glade guard are very good. I just painted more myself
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It’s good to remember that they have quite vast supply chain of stores that they have to basically stock first to keep them happy and alive. This is important for the continuation as this hobby is hard to get excited without getting hands on experience on the models.
There is likely a lot of ToW sitting on shelves of various shops, ready for people to buy, while at the same time the most popular online shops are struggling with demand. So remember to support you FLGS (if you have one, mine is 150 km away).
A good example is that I ordered my books from a Finnish store and gor them on Monday after the release. My friend ordered directly from GW and haven’t still received them because the order is lacking a single liche priest…
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5 hours ago, MaxT said:
Tried it. Outside of very specific situations, it doesn’t work. It takes up multiple feet of board space, it can’t manage terrain at all, it cannot wheel worth a damn, it gets in the way of the rest of its army, it can’t defend itself against multiple chargers. It looks fantastic in 1 unit vs 1 unit mathhammer, but that’s not how armies and army construction works.
If you’re daft enough to feed it one unit at a time then sure it’s effective, but it has no way of enforcing that. Much more likely is it’s lack of manoeuvre is taken advantage of and it gets multi charged to hell - where the chargers also have the advantage of ranks, multiple close order bonuses and enough numbers to prevent FBIGO too.
Haven’t seen it in use, but for shooting units it seems to have also quite obvious flaw. Everyone needs to shoot at the same target, and it should be very easy to ensure that big part of the unit is always unable to shoot due not seeing it.
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For the 20 gyrocopter list quite obvious problem is that it would be very strong against massed ranked infantry, but in an environment where there are armies with 20 gyrocopters they would face against similar spam armies, and against, say 20 individual dragon ogres and chariots with various flying monsters in between, the 20 gyrocopters would just be speedbumps and do very little
What comes to the terrain, the armies described above would also love tables with heavy terrain. Even chariots don’t seem to care too much if they go through a forest every now and then.
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4 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
It’s how this game should be played
gz to the nice game however:
HOW DARE YOU ONLY UPLOAD ONE IMAGE!?
Few additional ones due to request
it was a pleasure to play with two nice armies and nice terrain (made by myself).
Next week I already agreed to have a 2000p game against dark elf cavalry led by dragon, so that maybe gives some view how it could look in the other end of the spectrum.
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My guess based on my experience from 6/7th (of which this game very closely resembles) is that the tournament armies would be full of hard hitting stuff with narrow frontage (single characters on (flying) mounts, monsters (especially dragons, which seem to be much stronger than ever before, and also much stronger than most of the other monsters in ToW), chariots and cavalry (which is wider). Those are best countered with chaff (i.e. the skirmishers, fast cavalry, chaos hounds and such), which again is countered with shooting (which also helps against chariots etc.). That's then supported by (cheap) infantry, depending a bit on the army.
As can be seen, Dwarfs don't tick a lot of those boxes...
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2 hours ago, Marcvs said:
Glad to read this. I am playing two games at 1k pts tomorrow myself with my Wood Elves:
Wood Elf Realms - 1000pts Sisters - [1000pts]
## Main Force [1000pts]
### Characters [179pts]
Shadowdancers [85pts]:
• 1x Shadowdancer: Spear of Loec, Hand WeaponWaystalkers [94pts]:
• 1x Waystalker: Additional Hand Weapon, Asrai Longbow, General, Swiftshiver Shards, Hand Weapon
### Core [250pts]
Deepwood Scouts [75pts]:
• 5x Deepwood Scout: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand WeaponGlade Guard [70pts]:
• 5x Glade Guard: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon
Fire and FleeGlade Riders [105pts]:
• 5x Glade Rider: Asrai Longbow, Cavalry Spear, Elven Steed, Hand Weapon, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon
Reserve Move### Special [361pts]
Sisters Of The Thorn [134pts]:
• 1x Handmaiden of the Thorn
• 1x Standard Bearer
• 5x Sister Of The Thorn: Blackbriar Javelines, Hand Weapon, Steeds of Isha, Hand WeaponWardancers [85pts]:
• 5x Wardancer: Additional Hand Weapon, Hand WeaponWild Riders [142pts]:
• 1x Wild Hunter
• 5x Wild Rider: Hand Weapon, Hunting Spear, Light Armour, Steeds of Kornous, Hand Weapon### Rare [210pts]
Great Eagles [60pts]:
• 1x Great Eagle: Serrated Maw, Wicked ClawsGreat Eagles [60pts]:
• 1x Great Eagle: Serrated Maw, Wicked ClawsWaywatchers [90pts]:
• 5x Waywatcher: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand WeaponThe list is just a collection of MSU really, based on what I have already painted/rebased for my WInterheart recycling project. Here's the latest entries:
My opponent will play dwarves with 3 heroes, 3 units (17 longbeards and 10 quarrellers + 10 thunderers) ad 2 cannons, but really, we'll be mostly learning how to play 😅
My first game was quite similar, I had msu wood elves chosen with a feeling of what was good in 6th edition against a dwarf longbeard bunker for which I couldn't do much
but hopefully those wild riders help there...
3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:Personally, I am interested to see how The Old World will develop in a tournament setting, though. Just because I have a hunch that tournament play will look pretty unrecognizable to casual players. I want to see some of the absurd stuff that's going to get cooked up.
I'm also interested in how it will turn out. I playead a lot of tournaments back in 6/7th edition and the "casual" games were also heavily effected on that.
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Especially compared to the 8th edition.
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Warhammer - The Old World
in Warhammer: The Old World
Posted · Edited by Jamopower
Beastmen aren't (and have never been) very popular army, so the results have high volatility. The player in some certain tournament might be very good, or a beginner, and thus the results can be whatever.
My personal experience on playing few (casual) games with beastmen is that they are very good. Some of the units, such as dragon ogres, are clearly undercosted on what they actually do. The list also has options on doing almost everything in the game well besides shooting, but on the other hand they have a really nice magic item that allows the re-rolls to wound on magic missiles, so that's not a big issue either.