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Poryague

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    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    39 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

    If the rumour about individual command abilities only being usable once per phase rings out, then it would still be great as you'd have two abilities to use on two separate units. The once per phase thing would also let us get around Unleash Hell by charging in chaff first to force/absorb the "overwatch" then charging the valuable unit afterward. 

    Also, we need to see if faction battalions are disappearing or not, as Seeker Cavalcade is an obvious hard counter to Unleash Hell, and gives Slaanesh arguably the best means of circumventing it (for a combat army) given our high mobility. 

    Even if it goes away we have the Masque to pull some shenanigans. 

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, Golub87 said:

    Well with the way shooting is shaping up with Unleash Hell, I find it hard to see how will fragile melee army live. It will be like the battle of Somme, 4+ save or no.

    That said, did Lurid Haze just significantly drop in utility with the introduction of AOD?

    The only reason to take it now is outflank I guess.

    Aod does offer some more survability in shooting phase now then it did. Though the uptick in mw shooting is an even bigger problem since we don't have a lot of after saves.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    I find it interesting that we can now make Daemonettes as a example hit on 3+ Wound on 3+ and have 4+ save. We can also bring back each model slain on a 6+ from New command. Also reroll 1 to hit in pretenders.

    The thing that probably annoys people is a lot of armies came built to give those +1 bonuses and other mechanics. Now if stacking bonuses is limited then the armies that have those mechanics they will not be able to double dip. So long as double dipping does not happen then some armies will see more limited gains. We now have to manage cp well in order to benefit from these changes.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    7 minutes ago, Enoby said:

    I reckon they'll nerf most of the generic endless spells, but I can't see them taking the time to change every endless spell. I think our units were written with AoS 3 in mind, so why not nerf it from the get go if it wasn't meant for AoS 3

    Looking at new cogs it got a nerf and a weird buff. Only gives +1 to charge a lot less impactful for movement and lost reroll save. It gained however wizards (meaning all) gain 1 additional cast while within 6 inches. It became a powerful boost to casting.

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    Priest gaining access to generic prayers anyone  can use is nice. Granted warshrine is only way to use it at this time for slaanesh. The warshrine is a totem so benifits from command changes. I wonder if armies will start to see more priests. Because 6+ after save would be nice on Daemonettes and well any unit we have that lacks it.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted · Edited by Poryague

    43 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

    Our summoning is slower, but it's also not conditional on heroes alone, meaning our faction went from 'herohammer only' to actually allowing for diverse builds as I've been observing in tournament lists. If you have a problem with our Locus and Depravity being weaker, take it up with 99% of the AoS player-base, because virtually everyone hated how stupid and strong they were. The new versions are fine. 

    How does it not make sense? I've played plenty of games with the new book, and I'm pretty handily getting 30+ Depravity each game - and that's with lists that aren't built around abusing the mechanic. If Blissbarbs dropped to 100 points per grouping, you'd never not take three units of them because those three units spread out would easily give us 6+ Depravity points alone on the first turn. That's exactly the reason why units in our book are priced the way they are, because the moment you drop them down too much, you get a situation where our summoning stacks up stupidly fast; if you can easily and reliably summon 90 Daemonettes/3 Keepers/etc in a single game, do you really care if you can only summon one unit per turn? I sure as hell wouldn't. 

    Also, saying the allegiance abilities were only 'tweaked slightly' is flat out disingenuous. Old Depravity was hero-exclusive, and everyone agreed it needed to be reworked. They removed the abusive elements (chain-summoning), added an extra summon point in the Fane so games don't solely break down into keeping heroes alive, and reworked it to where everything in the game generates it - meaning our army went from being virtually mono-build to suddenly everything having a place. New Locus is also a big change because it went from being a "I made a mistake in the movement phase but oh look I rolled a 3+, too bad!" to something that actually requires smart thinking to make the most of. It's incredible with 6" pile-ins and tagging units, and it's very helpful for stopping units from using pile-ins to secure objectives. The army plays completely differently because of those two changes. You can't just shove three Keepers in your opponents face and expect to win like the old days. That in itself is proof we got a significant rework. 

    If you think there's nothing in the book that is strong for it's points, I mean no offence but I'm curious about how much play-time you've really invested in the book. Off the top of my head, Slickblades are great. Glutos is fantastic. Syll'Esske is good. Dexcessa is good (Synessa is weaker at the moment, but 3.0 may change that.) Sigvald is good (he is great in Lurid Haze.) Fiends are good - they get hard-countered by shooting, but what doesn't in Slaanesh? Keepers are good - they're not unstoppable combat beasts anymore, but they remain quality all-rounder support pieces. Exalted Chariots are, in a sense, deadlier than ever with the Depravity changes. The Masque is genuinely great. The Infernal Enrapturess is a fine anti-magic hero. Daemonettes are a solid horde unit. Heck, even Blissbarbs look overpriced but, as I've explained before, they're great for Slaanesh specifically (and not so good elsewhere.) The things that are overpriced, like Myrmidesh, Twinsouls, our generic mortal heroes, etc generally aren't overpriced by much, maybe needing 20 point drops at most - with Slaangors being the big exception, obviously.

    Doing a 1 to 1 comparison of points of our book to others is also a fool's game because our book is built around a summoning mechanic, whereas books like Daughters of Khaine aren't. If you told me with a straight face that our book wouldn't be overpowered if our units were priced "the way they would be if not accounting for summoning" then I would call you a liar. The book is already proving to be strong in capable hands. It's not nearly as weak as some people would have you believe. I've literally turned people's heads with how I've performed against their strong meta lists using lists that aren't meant to be super competitive, and I don't consider myself that good of a player. This book is not easy to win with, and that's why it is developing the reputation it is, but it is most certainly not weak. 

    I meant the host got little change  not the allegiance. I know allegiance got a massive change. Far as points go I never said anything about lowering the blissbarbs down to 100 point that would be excessive. I would 10 to 20 points lower depending on the unit.  I have not seen any unit that would require a 60 point drop outside slaangor which don't seem to have a good place currently. Also some units are in a very good point cost.

    Comparing to other books is fair. In what world does a shard speaker cost as much as a bloodwrack shrine even taking in summoning and new aos into consideration. The closest equivalent to a shardspeaker is a chaos sorcerer and that 110. We do have units that compare to other books quite well within chaos. 

    Some issues with the book will get better with new aos3. Aos 3 seems to be giving us the missing synergies and plays as long as you manage cp. It's clear with the twins and some models in slaanesh aos 3 was taken into consideration for pointing.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    3 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

    This is the last time I will say this, because I've said it multiple times already.

    There is no deliberate effort to make Slaanesh a weak faction. 

    It is a baseless rumour. Games Workshop are about models first, rules second, but they know that rules help sell models. They don't deliberately make units 'weak' or 'useless', because it would directly affect their sales. As someone who has been around the game for a long time, the simple reality is that their rules designers are guilty of missing the mark quite often. That's all there is to it. This is the same company that printed the 7th Edition Tyranid Pyrovore datasheet that, rules as written, nuked the entire board when it died - it was only unable to hurt vehicles, with Tyranids conveniently being the only faction that lacked them - and, from memory, never actually fixed it. 

    They put in the effort to rework our summoning and inflated our points because they wanted to make sure we didn't get a repeat of the original Hedonites book completely dominating the tournament scene. It's really that simple. 

    They addressed the allegiance abilities problems by reworking them and toning them down. It's clear the new ones are way weaker then they were originally while offering more flexibility by not doubling down on hero hammer.

    The points increase for a fear of a repeat make no sense. That repeat is not possible with these rules. They didn't even add new allegiance abilities they just tweaked existing ones slightly. I could understand some of the points more so if there were more host and other mechanics introduced and they were being conservative but that did not happen.

    Even with aos 3 coming I have yet to see anything strong enough for the points cost. A Shardspeaker costing as much as a bloodwrack shrine is absurd. The dok and slaanesh point comparison shows something went way wrong with points and or release schedule. 

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    Slaanesh feels like a mess right now. We have warscrolls written for next edition we have artifacts and command traits that dabble in cp that may not function very good in next edition.  Our points seem to have been counting next edition as well as be pointed for the type of summoning we initially had.  A shard speaker even taking summoning and next edition into consideration should not cost about the same as a bloodwrack shrine from dok.  Dok book seems it should of been released along side the initial slaanesh release not now with across the board massive points reductions.

    Comparing to the other god books and std our synergies are a bit underwhelming because of ranges, lack of options (some options are strong like double activation) and points. New commands will help with this as it will give us more things to do with units.

    The way things look is a lot if armies should see point increases across multiple hero and or monster units with these new rules. I think the summer points update is probably going to be a mess. We may not see accurate points changes until summer next year for anyone because of edition change.

    • Like 3

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    1 minute ago, Yoid said:

    Only one heroic action per turn. So only 1 of your heroes can heal, and then you are loosing the chance to do any of the other actions. You can do them both in your turn and the enemy turn tho.

    Except the dispell one that should be casting an extra spell instead (poor Synessa) I think the other three heroic actions are quite good in different situations.

    Dexcessa and Synessa having access to both heroic and monster actions is a good buff. Their average damage goes up with stomping/titanic duel. Watch out for Roar too, good that they can shut down enemy CAs but enemy monsters can now shut down our KoS CA too.

    Synessa unlimited range CAs is gonna be useless unless there are special CAs for heroes that unit champions cannot perfom. Otherwise it will only affect non-hero chariots.

    They did say new command abilities and reaction type commands. So we still have missing information.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted · Edited by Poryague

    10 minutes ago, Enoby said:

    I think DoK was meant to come out in 2020 alongside BR: Morathi, so their points may have not been adjusted - or we can hope!

    Unless there book was meant to come out a lot sooner which is believable. These new general rules would have been worked on at the same time. In our book some points make and The point increases in kragnos make sense. Now that we have seen some new rules. There are units that are still over costed but not as many.

    Another interesting thing foot heroes ( rules as written in what they showed) can heal each hero phase. Sigvald could heal each hero phase as an example. So foot heroes can just heal when needed in hero phase so you need to kill them before the next hero phase starts. Limiting factor being 1 hero can do a hero thing.

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted

    Some of The points make a bit more sense with these rules or they would if DoK didn't get ridiculous across the board point reductions. Points went up on all reprinted models in BR Kragen I can kinda understand it with these rules. But again why the hell was DoK reduced. I can actually see point cost go up for a lot of armies.

    AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

    in Hedonites of Slaanesh

    Posted · Edited by Poryague

    Thing to not though ranges increased for generic command abilities they are wholly within range vs within range like they are now. also chaos warshrine will be able to use commands upto 18 inches. Heroic actions as written can happen in your hero phase and your opponents same for monster actions in the charge phase. Meaning you can do more things in each person's phases.

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