Poryague
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Posts posted by Poryague
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47 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
"...when picking targets."
Not when you resolved your shooting attack.
It says " can ignore the effects of guarding hero" if guarding hero is ignored all the effects of the ability are ignored . It's as though that ability doesn't exist.
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It say to ignore gaurded hero. Which if ignored means no benifit at all from it. Your hero just dies.
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2 minutes ago, Sception said:
Target unit does need to be wholly within 18", so you can't spread out ~too~ much. Notably wholly within applies to the enemy as well. Spread out and it's harder to offensively invoke all your stuff.
The ward save was wholly within 12. Going to 18 is a big improvement. Also you can move out of range and hold the bonus till the beginning of your next turn instead of losing it immediately when out of range. Interesting trade offs.
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Invocation of nagash combined the old invocation of nagash, morikhane and soul stealer into a spell. The old invocation and morikhane where aura type abilities and now have to cast to get them to work. No need to castle but adds risk to be unbound by opponent wizard. Maybe we will see some heavy aura changes.
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Worth noting that damage table has changed to battle damaged. Simplifying what happens when a moster is weakened by damage.
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Worth noting that damage table has changed to battle damaged. Simplifying what happens when a moster is weakened by damage.
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16 hours ago, Lucentia said:
Whilst this is true, I'd add that that mobility is absolutely crucial. Even if you're just using slickblades to punch a screen out T1 for +10 depravity, their extra 8" of movement over daemonettes/fiends means they won't have to deploy right on the starting line for a reliable charge and can be kept safe with your own screens. Or, ideally, it means they've got the movement to threaten juicier stuff behind the enemy screening lines.
I'm not necessarily looking to maximise damage with these units, I just need something that can hit for at least 12 wounds ASAP so that I don't lose the game immediately, and slickblades remain the best option for that despite their middling damage output, imo. I'm running a 6 fiends list currently, but it still also needs a slickblade unit for a reliable, punchy, early charge.
The max threat range of slick blades is 32 and 26 for daemonettes. So it would be closer to 6 inch difference on average especially if you command daemonettes 6 and they get a +1 to run and charge.
There 4 battle plans that operates at 24 inches. Where slickblades would probably fall into auto including. So if we are talking tournaments would depend on if you know battle plans ahead of time. If all plans are 18 inches apart that will change the math.
Also depends on armies that show up not all armies necessary go 1 drop though a lot chase it. If we get to go second. It gives an edgout to daemonettes. Daemonettes are not far behind slickblads.
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1 hour ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:
Interesting bit of analysis. I do think Daemonettes are a little underrated. I sometimes take a unit of 20 of them, and they perform OK. Not fantastic... but not a waste of the points, either.
Slickblade Seekers, though, are a compulsory inclusion. It's almost a bit tedious, having to field them every time.
Slickblades seem to only shine because of mobility. They don't really excel far above daemonettes on damage and daemonettes scale better on buff because they have more attacks. When you factor in a lot of slaanesh players build 1drops to pick turn order. If you go second and let your opponent move they can now be nuked by daemonettes which are more likely to get you to the first tier of buffs.
It also depends on your local meta but because of where points sit. I don't think slick blades are as auto include as people think.
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Comparing slick blades, 20 daemonettes and fiends
Movement
1. Slickblades best movement no comparison.
2. Fiends and daemonettes fairly comparable. Fiends 12 base but daemonettes can keep up with a cp and get a +1 to run and charge. Can argue Fiends edge out daemonettes because lack of need for a resource.
Survival
Surviving melee
All 3 are actually fairly close Fiends may edge out most cases. Because of -1 to H and W.
Surviving magic and shooting
1. Daemonettes because they have a 5+ rally and 20 wounds
2. Slickblades because of wound count.
3. Fiends Lack of wounds and not much they can do to counter
There is a but for magic Fiends and daemonettes are eligible for wizard hunting battalion with the 5+ignore spell and endless spell. This puts slick blades last in magic survival.
Damage output
Damage to 1 w models
Slick blades and daemonettes fairly close. Slick blades edge out around 4+ or higher save. Daemonettes win when dealing woth unmodified saves due to volume. Fiends falls behind.
Damge to 2 w models.
All 3 are competitive close. But dealing with 4+ armour or more goes to slick blades then fiends. Then unmodified goes to daemonettes.
Damage to 3 w models
Fiends daemonettes close fiends win again higher armour Slickblades completely fall off due to no longer getting bonus attack.
Damge to 4w or more
1. Fiends by a large margin.
2. Daemonettes
3 slick blades.
There is a but for the damage out put the wizard hunting battalion can net a bonus attack for fiends and daemonettes when targeting wizards. Granted this is for killing heroes. But thier are hand full of armies having multi model units being wizards above a certain model count Lumineth and tzeentch I know have these units though not used a lot.
Overall
Daemonettes tend to be more well rounded and are batle line. Slickblades favor lots of models with 2 or less wounds. While fiends favor 2 or more wound type armies more elite armies. though I think there may be an argument fiends and daemonettes may outright be better then slick blades when fiends and daemonettes are in wizard hunting battalion.
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Invaders should have been fixed in a way to work on unique heroes. Other books with subfactions that offered unique heroic actions didn't stop unique heroes from using them. If they fixed it to work with uniques while limiting it to one use. It could of still been a useful subfaction.
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59 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:
Got my second full game in vs. a kindof skewy STD anvil list. I expected a depravity piñata, that did not work out as I hoped.
I recant my previous skepticism about the lord of pain aura needing to be melee only. If it remains as is, LoP needs to skyrocket in price.
Also, as much as I love strength of godhood... it may be worth it to hide your pretenders benefits behind Glutos after all.
Finally, blissbarbs are a freaking steal. They do so much work.
As well, an opponent that refuses to take temptation dice and has no soft targets can make depravity generation a real slog.
The archers are steal because our other options are not as good. Our infantry units are really kinda meh until you get depravity rolling and some seem pointed as though we should have some level of depravity buff going immediately. The buffs are swingy depending on army, battleplan and opponent skill level.
Our cavalry revolves around slickblades and blissbarb seekers. The others ones are just meh possibly overpointed. Yeah there fast but without depravity bonus rolling they will be lacking in performance.
The depravity made a huge difference in archer survival as they die to stiff breeze. several units didn't feel impactful until depravity started rolling in and thats assuming you have enough of them left to do the work.
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3 minutes ago, LeonBox said:
I think we're pretty much an elite army anyway. I mean I guess we could run daemonette blobs, but they're made of paper and far too expensive. I could have definitely played better to aim for a closer score -- I went for Eye for an Eye turn one and he had some ward save rune up which made his Droths even tankier. It was a bad time all round.
Demonettes are in a weird spot when you compare them. Gor are 110 can't run and charge no rend. Similar profile 4h 3w vs 3h 4w. Demonettes run and charge but gor have strike last and get the rend on round 2 and rend 2 round 4. They also get a 4+ save with shields. They can asily drop Demonettes points.
We are still suffering pointing issues on some units. There seems to be an assumption on us easily getting the depravity early game which is not true and extremely matchup dependent. While gor in this example gain abilities automatically as the game progresses with little the opponent can do.
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4 minutes ago, LeonBox said:
The issue was I was quite elite (e.g. Slicks) so he was killing like 2 models and then I was failing to wipe him, so he was hitting back with a lot of attacks. As I said, I was misplaying a lot because it was the last game of the day (and 7 hours of gaming total) so I was a bit overloaded at that
Do you think running it to elite may have caused some short falls?
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13 minutes ago, LeonBox said:
Funnily enough, he went 3-0 and got best Chaos player. I have to wonder how many times he pulled fast ones on some of his opponents, though, as I did not find him a skilled player.
I myself went 1-1-1. The time allotted per game was far too short -- we had 2 hours and 20 minutes to finish a full 2k game. I didn't get further than round 3 in any given game.
Irongut/Bull-heavy list with 2 tyrants and some other foot character: Major Victory. We only played 2 full rounds, but my debuffs (and the Masque sneaking into a unit of 20 Gnoblars for early DP generation) meant he really struggled with this matchup.
Teclis/Sentinel LRL: Draw. We only finished 2 rounds (his first hero phase took up about 20% of the match) but I wiped both units of Sentinels and put 8 wounds on Teclis, who walked right into the Crown of Dark Secrets debuff. Had we gone to round 3, I think I'd have tabled him. Also the Masque tanked Sentinel and Teclis shooting for the whole first turn, and it took him 2 turns to remove her, meaning she more than earnt her points back wasting a lot of shooting units' time.
Droth-only Fyreslayers list: Major Loss. Just so many Droths reflecting mortals back on everything, and not enough shooting to deal with them. Also I was tired by this point and made a lot of stupid decisions (failed a battle tactic and didn't get any objectives at all turn 1), and the battle plan played too well into his strengths (only 3 objectives that he could park 2-3 Droths on; my low model count made it extremely hard to take them off them). Highlight was Glutos tanking 3 Droths for almost a whole double turn from them.
The Lord of Pain survived every battle, but I was too cautious with him sometimes (he didn't buff at all in the Ogor matchup). Glutos was actually pretty rubbish the first two battles, but almost made it for it by one-shotting a Droth and putting another on 14 wounds.
MvPs was Slickblades, who were champion EKs. Coupled with the Barbseekers, their rend is killer. Also the Twinsouls were great for dropping attacks and tanking LRL wardens. Our debuffs really hurt LRL, actually making them quite a decent matchup for us.
How many mortal wounds was he kicking back? Even if you did the full 14 wounds to it the average kick back is 7 mortal wounds and dies. Or is there another way to kick back mortals I haven't played Fyreslayers.
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17 minutes ago, Thor said:
i dont know about the twinsouls, doing the math on them abit, they seem incredible strong, their ability to reduce attacks on units nearby seem wild af. i do think painbringers could go 10 points down.
that said, i havent had the opportunity to play them yet, this wedensday i will have a match against new khorne tho.
what are other peoples experiences?
Twinsouls are bit tricky far as what you can compare them to because of there abilities. The main issue is delivering them effectively with out them getting exploded. Against melee armies there probably ok. Not so much against shooting and magic.
Painbringers if compared to chaos warriors which are similar. Are overpriced. A unit of 10 warriors are 220 and a unit of pains are 290. Painbringers are not bringing 70 points of advantage.
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I am finding the points to be weird for some units.
Painbringers seem to be 10 to 20 points overcost. I would also say the same for twinsouls.
Some the unique heroes seem over costed by 10 to 20 points maybe more in some cases. Looking at the twins especially they maybe more.
LoP, LoH, blissbarb, daemonettes seem about right.
It feels as though we are paying a tax on some units for the revel in depravity and summoning. Even though we don't start with it and have to earn it. The tax seems way high on some units then other armies have to pay for the abilities.
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Fiends are probably better then slick blades in versitality.Mostly because fiends count as infantry for battalion purposes and slick blades don't. No retreat and no surrender command and icon. They would have 3 stings and 5 claw attacks and are eligible for double activation.They could be in the battalion for hero phase activation. Long as we don't get stuck in 1 drop meta you could do a lot with them.
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4 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:
Edit - Oh man, I thought euphoric Killers addressed this, but apparently not.
Euphoric killers gets dp as soon as wound is caused. 13.3.1 wounds seem to be allocated after all attacks from the unit have been made so it shouldn't be an issue.
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21 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:
Yeah, I don't know how to handle temptation dice with fast rolling... That sucks.
It gets weirder if you use euphoric killer and are close to the 2nd power up of 6 to hit does mw in addition. You could slow roll it until you get it. Then batch roll once you have it.
This may be wrong as all wounds happen after all attacks and saves are made.
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Looking at attack sequence
13.2 says " Make attacks 1 at a time, unless you are making combined attacks." And combined attacks " you can make combined attacks if all the attacks are made by models from the same unit, with same type of weapon, against the same target unit, and where the same rerolls and modifiers apply to the attacks". 13.2.1 sounds like it's not just optional. It may be up to the attacking players discretion on how he rolls.
But that means on your attacks you could do 1 attack at a time to trigger the saves temptation.
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4 minutes ago, LeonBox said:
I can see a lot of opponents wrinkling their nose at this, not least because it slows play down, but also because it's second nature for most people to simply roll all their dice at once.
One thing I thought was great (though I think this will change as people wise up to Slaanesh's new tricks) was how readily my opponent accepted at first because it didn't seem like that big a deal to give me a measly D6 depravity. As time wore on, however, it became obvious that his blithe decisions earlier were snowballing and making his life harder. I don't think I've seen a more perfect blend of lore and mechanics.
Think how much more frustrating that choice of taking would be as KrispyXIV described. What you could do is let them know your tempting that unit then slow roll until they fail offer the tempt then return to mass rolling after they made their decision.
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15 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:
So, kindof a QoL issue but something to consider for temptation dice - attacks technically happen in sequence, not all at once.
You and your opponent should be resolving temptation dice well before your opponent has perfect knowledge of whether his unit is going to survive or not (or how well their attack is going, etc.) - after the first failed save (or hit/wound roll) in most cases (or after the second, vs. Blissbarb Seekers for example), when rolls could still go very well or very poorly, leaving the fate of the unit still in question.
I've been discussing this with my immediate playgroup (the 4-6 people normally play), and I think what we're going to do is call things ahead of time - "I'm going to tempt you on your first failed save, are you going to accept or reject?" - and unless they don't want to do that, do it that way. Otherwise, we'll resolve the 'correct' way - roll each save one at a time in sequence.
But it is very much not to the Hedonites players advantage to offer dice after your opponent has perfect knowledge of the outcome of the results of an entire combat.
Most people use rule 13.2.1 combined attacks roll it all at once. Which usually isnt an issue. So i guess you can say I plan to tempt that unit can we use rule 13.2 do things in sequence to make them sweat. Then return to rule 13.2.1 when no temptation are planned.
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Maybe if Visage and shutting down command were on the same unit could force a battle shock test granted not an easy set up. There bravery 5 goes to 4 by Visage. So killing 1 or 2 models becomes significant for battle shock
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With tougher units you may want set up situation to offer 2 Temptations on your turn one in shooting and melee this way its 2d3 on the unit sure it's 4 damage average but in shooting phase and melee phase that can be extra model or models dying.
I think trogs are just a bad deal in particular because of high save, ward, and regeneration at end of combat. Probably one of the toughest units in game if you can't think of a good way to get pass all that.
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Thoughts on 4.0's New Rules
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
It literally does. "Ignore the effects of "guarding hero" ability when picking the target for thier shooting attacks". It literally says ignore that rule when picking targets. If you ignore the rule you get zero benifit from it. When you pick a target for their shooting attack you ignore the effects (plural) of guarding hero . There is clear case guarding hero is entirely ignored as written not just the targeting aspect.