[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

7 hours ago, Melcavuk said:

Very true, removing once per battle and instead making it "until your next hero phase” on the meathook

Much better ?

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

A] Fair enough; it feels like it changes what a butcher is, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing, just an adjustment! Take your point that you have still left in some weaknesses, like saves and hits. I guess the 4+ to hit has been harder to swallow (look, I did one too ?) than the lack of reliable magic, since the army has always felt like melee combat is their thing. 

B] more heroes, absolutely. I guess I was assuming in the absence of that. Reading through my own post, I think I’m suggesting that butcher’s recipes could be about buffing units (in effect, expanding on the cauldron idea and making butchers without cauldrons comparable) rather than boosting spellcasting. As for the +1 to wound, I’m just asking for a reason not to take ghyrstrike instead!

C] Agreed that a lot of the time it won’t do anything. But taking a wizard out of the game with a wound is going to make your opponent cry in some cases. It shuts down Nagash, for example.

D] It was the one that raised my eyebrows, is all! Again, it may be because we haven’t been a mw army, and you have introduced several ways to do so; and a spell which does d6 to units and d3 to heroes ... will generally do double to quadruple the damage of (the current) arcane bolt. Looked like an autotake to me.

E] like the idea of the tenderiser, yes; still, ogors are sold in 6s. If you want to change the size of guts, let’s talk!

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

Some great work there. I particularly like how you have kept it mostly thematic. Also really like the idea of the bloody banquet, with the Gutbusters starting with an ability based on being ravenous and progressing, though perhaps limit this to just the three stages. The other battle traits seem reasonably balanced, and while the auto mortal wound is strong, it doesn’t appear op and is still in keeping with the faction.

I also think you have some great abilities in there. My only real points to consider are:

a] you seem to be covering most of the bases, which doesn’t leave any weaknesses. I know SCE do this, but ogors have traditionally been more of a strengths and weaknesses army. While I love the idea of ‘butcher recipes’, it doesn’t quite sit well that many of these can make my butcher a stronger or more reliable spell caster, for instance. Butcher buffs are great, their spells should be unreliable.

B] secondly, and relatedly, I think you could do with a few ways to buff our strengths (perhaps instead of magic buffs). Ogor tyrants will be loathe to give up +1 to wound when it combos so well with the gutgouger, and most ogor generals would trade a whole unit for a +1 to hit buff, even if just in certain circumstances. We need buffing heroes to create synergy to make melee - already a strength - a terrifying prospect for enemies. 

C] The malevolent meathook is too powerful against certain armies, I think. 

D] the butchers blades spell seems a little too strong as well. Compared with, say, arcane bolt.

E] don’t make ogors unit size in multiples of 4. Too many people already have multiples of 3.

Just my opinion of course, and hopefully helpful suggestions. Which isn’t to take away from what a great job you’ve done - generally balanced, thematic, and simple enough effects. Would like to see some of your efforts eventually reflected in a battletome ?

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

Without the khemist buff, sky wardens will slightly (statistically, on average) outdamage the riggers, but with a -1 rend rather than -2, so really only against targets with no save or 6+. With the khemist buff, the +1 to hit/ wound make a bigger difference, so the riggers have it even before rend is applied. Plus, they can repair ships. It’s not that skywardens are bad; with buff, an ordinary skywarden is still dishing out 2 wounds at -1 rend. But a rigger is dishing out 2 and 2/9, at -2 rend (on average, of course). Their command models do even better, and the rigger more so than the warden. 

Not to mention that the riggers’ pistols are noticeably better.

So in small units where you can get everyone into the fight, riggers will give a bit more bang for your buck. But you make a fair point about range - clearly, 12 wardens able to strike will do a lot more damage than 6 riggers able to fight.

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

2 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

I put my Butchers on 50mm and Gorgers on 60mm.  And I'm not going back hahaha.

Well I have my maneaters on 40mm as well, so there!

[AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion]

11 hours ago, redphlannel said:

However, I do like to win sometimes... so I'm curious if this would be a good beatstick 1k army to start with?

Heroes:
Huskard on Stonehorn OR TT (340)(360)
- Blood Vulture 
Battleline
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers

980 or 1,000 pts. 

Both Huskards fit into 1k nicely. The Huskard on a Stonehorn seems real good for the Mournfangs, but I like the icyness and buffs of a Huskard on a Tuskard (dang these names...). Which is preferable? Also not sure on traits and artifacts. The Pelt and dispel Skull seem good, but the Realm specific items look nice as well. 

Is reasonable at 1k, have run the same list. Mournfang packs aren’t loved, exactly, at the moment, but they’re far from a terrible unit, just not optimal. Yhetees are a bit more bang for your buck, but there’s the price ( and look ) of the models. Then there’s sabres, which gives you more actual bodies, but again, you’re looking at finecast or proxies.

To go back to your list, in isolation I usually prefer the Tuskard to the Stonehard, however you can do a lot of burst damage with a stonehard and 4 mournfang on the combined charge. In order to get the icy shooting of the TT as well, (and assuming you’re buying 2 SC boxes already), you could try:

Huskard on SH

TT Beastriders

4 Mournfang

think that is still 1k on the nose.

I would stick with the pelt or skull (skull for moderate magic armies - you won’t need it against khorne, and it won’t help you much against Nagash), although as you are dishing out mortal wounds generally, the frostwyrm elixir is also fun on a Stonehard.

for command abilities, I’d take Everwinter’s master, to increase your chances of boosting movement initially to make sure you get the charges, and then roll for extra mortal wounds in combat.

[AoS 2 - Clan Skyre Discussion]

As has been pointed out, weapon swaps are easy - so I have kept the three different poses in each unit, and just cut off the weapons from the arms and replaced, so 3 warpfire throwers in one unit, etc. After that, you can add bits and pieces to them to help further distinguish - e.g. I added back banners from leftover skaven standards to a different model in each unit, etc.

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

1 hour ago, Pitloze said:

Something is wrong with the new Ogors box. It says it comes with 40mm bases. But they should come on 50mm. Misprint maybe?

No, they should be on 40s, they changed it. (Thank goodness, as many of us had already rebased to 40mm rounds!)

maneaters and tyrants are officially on 50mm, ogors, Ironguts, and leadbelchers on 40mm

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

Still, thrilled to see a box with the words “age of sigmar” and the word “Gutbusters” on it. ?

Interesting to see the ‘fluff’ gnoblars made a feature. (Also pleased to note that two tone pants are de rigueur in the mortal realms for discerning ogors...)

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

Can totally see a rationale for 2 butchers, just meant that three (in the first list) to support an army with 400pts of bonegrinder was probably overkill! And dropping one would give you options.

Thoroughly get the shiny new toy role, am now completely on board ?

interesting question about the yhetees; the bonegrinder is faster (relatively uninjured at least), and has a higher save - although I would generally expect the yhetees to be a bit more durable, especially with the -1 to hit. Blow for blow, 9 yhetees should outdamage the bonegrinder, but for early board control he looks to rival even Torrbad yhetees.

Anyway, be interesting to know how the big fella got on!

[AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion]

40 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

unless the battalions says KHORNE its still beastmen

I’m assuming it will grant/carry the khorne keyword, but perhaps you still won’t be able to allocate abilities/artefacts to warherd models under a khorne allegiance ( I.e. you can take the battalion as part of a khorne army, but the only eligible heroes for abilities/artifacts would be outside of the battalion - which means the battalion being your whole army with the khorne allegiance would be fruitless, you would take it with BoC allegiance even though all models have khorne keyword)?

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

I should caveat what I’m about to say with  the fact that I have never fielded a bonegrinder, so I’m speaking mainly from ignorance on this one! But...

I’m struggling a bit to see what the Bonegrinder’s role is. As a single model, he has a good amount of wounds, a bit of mw output, and a decent amount of 2 damage rend attacks - with a neat pick-your-fight movement ability much like yetis. However, for his cost, he is nowhere near as durable as say 12 ogres, and nowhere near as hitty as say 6 maneaters. I think maybe he is at his best against units of 5 or more, medium armoured, maybe even 2 wound models (so some stormcast, for example)? Particularly where you can organise things to pile him in last and deny attacks.

so, if we’re treating him as durable shock troop, in effect, then the rest of your army should balance that. Big block of 12 ogors is probably a good idea, you can use as an anvil to the bonegrinder hammer if needed. Think I’d have an accompanying beat stick, so again, 6 Ironguts not a bad choice. 3 leadbelchers is too small for me, even if paying battleline tax, and I don’t think you need 3 butchers when their impact on the Gargant is minimal, so in the first list maybe switch out a butcher to give you 6 leadbelchers and a slightly more flexible unit.

Dont know what to say about Grots; they don’t seem to feel quite right with this list - maybe because you have a big footprint of ogors, and then a large bonegrinder base to negotiate around the battlefield. 

Playing a mainly Gargant list with some ogors for battleline sounds fun, but in the way that playing goblins in bloodbowl sounds fun ?

[AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion]

2 hours ago, Colonel Cabbage said:

I think there is a Battalion for each god that you must use to get the marks. Otherwise no marks. However from waht we have seen/heard they are very flexible. They can be taken as BoC batt, or as a batt in an army of the relevant god. I dont have the points for a full 2k BoC army yet, so I may run 1,000 points or so of Warherds in the Khorne Battalion as part of a Blades of Khorne army for now.

 So ... how would that work with the artefacts etc in the khorne book? My warherd is already khorne themed, so excited by this idea, but the artefacts/abilities in khorne require the mortal, daemon, or bloodbound  keywords, which the warherd units all lack. I understand we may not have the answer yet, but interested if anyone has any more knowledge!

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

13 hours ago, James S said:

No worries bud. Was just curious. I actually run my Tyrant with GutGouger with the same trait and artifact as you. It's one less attack, but 5+ doing double damage. If you get the right big name, it goes to 4+. Also an extra inch of reach. And we know how important that extra inch is!

Technically, assuming Ghyrstike and Wild fury on both, I think the gutgouger pulls slightly ahead of the great club, and slightly more again after 3 wounds (in terms of average damage output).

I have also switched to this set up (ghyrstrike, wild fury and gutgouger) on my primary tyrant. Big names is a bit situational, because fate seeker is great but doesn’t help with damage output per turn; however, if I roll a six I am likely to choose brawlerguts.

In terms of a second (I.e. “naked”) tyrant, I would go for double clubs - and if I get to choose, the giant breaker big name.

At 2.5k, I often run 3 tyrants; the gutgouger general runs with a large block of 12 ogors, and stands in the middle with 3” range (having bullied them), the double club runs with 6 allied brawlers maneaters, and then a great club tyrant runs with a unit of Ironguts. My optimal big name spread would then be gutgouger: brawlerguts, double club: giantbreaker, great club: fateseeker. Not that I’ve quite managed that - think the odds of getting what you want on 3 tyrants is one in every 27 games!

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

18 hours ago, James S said:

Also asking for some MathHammer help on whether Might is Right or Wild fury is better for a Ghyrestrike Gutgouger Tyrant

Interestingly, (as in: I hadn’t really considered it), by my quick calculations, on average 4 attacks hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ (doubling on 5+) should cause more wounds than 3 attacks hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ (doubling on 4+).  On average you should cause 11.66 wounds in the first case, and 10 in the second, before saves. The Brawlerguts big name doesn’t change which is better, growing to 13.33 and 11.25 respectively.

That’s if my mental maths holds up, and is an average which doesn’t take into account probable distributions. Worth taking for a spin though!

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

23 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

What ideas do people have for an Ogors list (combined Gubtusters and Beastclaw, Destruction allegiance with all Ogors Battleline)?

Been trying to shoehorn (stonehorn?) a battery of thundertusks (3) with a couple of big blocks of ogres and a tyrant, but it’s too tight at 2000pts. At 2500 I’d like to try! 

But in the meantime, maybe something like:

Tyrant

Butcher 

Huskard on Thundertusk

12 ogors

12 ogors

3 ogors

Thundertusk Beastriders

2 frost sabres

2 frost sabres

[AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion]

Short answer is we need some hero-buffers of our own! But in the meantime, for hero removal I suggest butchers and the maw spell. There are also allies which can help - the thundertusk for example. The ironblaster should do this job for us, but ... doesn’t really.

For the second point, I would say that the tyrant’s command ability is crucial. A large block of ogors or an enormous block of grots that are immune to battleshock will hold out a decent amount of time, even without saves. Then it becomes about the wound attrition.