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Duke of Gisoreux
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Posts posted by Duke of Gisoreux
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You are completely right. There is no reason not to take it. The only restriction is, that Seraphon is not allowed, which doesn't matter.
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10 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
I don't think it's a legal list though is it? My understanding was the the Blood Knight Mercenaries required a Blood Knight Unit + a Vampire Lord on Nightmare. Or is that only optional?
Order of the Blood-drenched Rose consists of 1-3 units of Blood Knights and 0-1 Vampire Lord on Nightmare, so the Vampire Lord is optional.
Quote43 minutes ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:Also at that point, I think the need for an Enchantress and Damsel basically goes away as the only model they can buff is the King, who can frankly manage without a pair of dedicated casters following him around. At the least the Enchantress is surplus to requirements as the King doesn't need the +1 to hit, she doesn't give him re-rolls and she doesn't have a passive heal for him either.
I don't think so. As I said before all their spells would be cast on him. So the only thing that becomes useless would be the reroll for Grail Knights. The King needs the +1 to hit from the Enchantress. It's the main reason to take her actually. It's badly needed to trigger the effect of his Sword of Judgement.
Edit: Just created another list:
SpoilerAllegiance: Hammerhal
Mortal Realm: UlguLeaders
King on Hippogryph (400)
- General
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
[average damage: 9.03 (9.77 charge, 16.31 Monster/Hero, 21.13 charge + Monster/Hero), effective wounds: 58.50]
Enchantress (160)
[average damage: 1.32, effective wounds: 10.00]
Damsel (100)
[average damage: N/A, effective wounds: 6.00]Battleline
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]Units
5 x Blood Knights (200)
- Mercenaries
[average damage: 5.08 (9.75 charge), effective wounds: 45.00]
5 x Blood Knights (200)
- Mercenaries
[average damage: 5.08 (9.75 charge), effective wounds: 45.00]
10 x Grail Knights (360)
[average damage: 9.68 (21.73 charge, 15.60 Daemon/Death, 30.37 charge + Daemon/Death), effective wounds: 41.60]
5 x Dragon Blades (120)
[average damage: 3.08 (6.14 charge), effective wounds: 24.00]
5 x Dragon Blades (120)
[average damage: 3.08 (6.14 charge), effective wounds: 24.00]
Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies/Mercenaries: 400 / 400
Wounds: 120Total average damage: 46.76 (78.40 charge)
Total effective wounds: 326.10Overall army rating: 310.9
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9 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
Hmmm, this might be an option. Have you done anything modelling wise to display the difference?
If I were to do this then I think I'd double base them, having a pair of knights represent one of the Demigryph Knights for the sake of clarity.
Conceptual Heavy Hitters List
Order: Hammerhal: Ulgu
King on Hippogryph 400
-General
-Legendary Fighter
-Sword of Judgement
Enchantress 160
Archmage on Aelven Steed 10010 x Freeguild Archers 100
10 x Freeguild Archers 100
10 x Freeguild Archers 100
3 x Demigryph Knights with Lances 130
3 x Demigryph Knights with Lances 130
10 x Grail Knights 360
10 x Grail Knights 360
I think there is no reason to distinguish them from Knights of the Realm as there are no Knights of the Realm in the list to confuse.
I analyzed your army list:
SpoilerAllegiance: Hammerhal
Mortal Realm: UlguLeaders
King on Hippogryph (400)
- General
- Trait: Legendary Fighter
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
[average damage: 9.77 (10.51 charge, 19.00 Monster/Hero, 23.76 charge + Monster/Hero), effective wounds: 40.95]
Enchantress (160)
[average damage: 1.32, effective wounds: 10.50]
Archmage (100)
[average damage: N/A, effective wounds: 6.60]Battleline
10 x Freeguild Archers (100)
[average damage: 1.59, effective wounds: 12.60]
10 x Freeguild Archers (100)
[average damage: 1.59, effective wounds: 12.60]
10 x Freeguild Archers (100)
[average damage: 1.59, effective wounds: 12.60]Units
10 x Grail Knights (360)
[average damage: 9.68 (21.73 charge, 15.60 Daemon/Death, 30.37 charge + Daemon/Death), effective wounds: 43.68]
10 x Grail Knights (360)
[average damage: 9.68 (21.73 charge, 15.60 Daemon/Death, 30.37 charge + Daemon/Death), effective wounds: 43.68]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 3.38 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 30.24]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 3.38 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 30.24]Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114Total average damage: 44.32 (73.17 charge)
Total effective wounds: 243.68Overall army rating: 260.3
I created an overall army rating calculated from average damage and effective wounds to compare army lists. Your list scored a 260.3 rating.
As you said they will deal a lot of damage, but they are not very durable (only 243.68 effective wounds).I created another alternate list, actually replacing the Grail Knights with Blood Knight mercenaries:
SpoilerAllegiance: Hammerhal
Mortal Realm: UlguLeaders
King on Hippogryph (400)
- General
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
[average damage: 9.03 (9.77 charge, 16.31 Monster/Hero, 21.13 charge + Monster/Hero), effective wounds: 61.43]
Enchantress (160)
[average damage: 1.32, effective wounds: 10.50]
Damsel (100)
[average damage: N/A, effective wounds: 6.30]
Archmage (100)
[average damage: N/A, effective wounds: 6.60]
Freeguild General (100)
- Shield & Lance
[average damage: 1.58 (2.25 charge), effective wounds: 15.75]Battleline
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 25.20]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 25.20]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 25.20]Units
5 x Blood Knights (200)
- Mercenaries
[average damage: 5.08 (9.75 charge), effective wounds: 47.25]
5 x Blood Knights (200)
- Mercenaries
[average damage: 5.08 (9.75 charge), effective wounds: 47.25]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 6.22 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 30.24]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 6.22 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 30.24]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 6.22 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 30.24]Total: 1890 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 126Total average damage: 49.98 (59.42 charge)
Total effective wounds: 361.40Overall army rating: 308.3
The list deals less damage than yours, but is much more durable (361.40 effective wounds).
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3 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
Only downside is how many Demigryph Knights one needs to make up the army.
I think I would use Bretonnian Knights (Knights of the Realm for example) to proxy them, although I have the required amount of Demigryph models.
3 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:Although based on what you have so far it's a 1,980 point list and CP now ost 50 points instead of being granted for every 50 points below the limit.
Makes no difference. It was intended to have extra CPs to use the command abilities of both the King and the Freeguild General.
I created an alternate full Free Peoples list:
SpoilerAllegiance: Free Peoples
Mortal Realm: AqshyLeaders
Freeguild General on Griffon (280)
- Shield & Greathammer
- Artefact: Armour of Meteoric Iron
[average damage: 8.04, effective wounds: 78.00]
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Stately War Banner
- Trait: Indomitable
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
[average damage: 1.58 (charge: 2.25), effective wounds: 30.00, 4+ save against MWs]
Battleline
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 3.96 (charge: 6.39), effective wounds: 28.80]
10 x Freeguild Greatswords (120)
[average damage: 12.15, effective wounds: 30.00]
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 5.83, effective wounds: 90.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.83, effective wounds: 45.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.83, effective wounds: 45.00]
30 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (300)
[average damage: 9.73, effective wounds: 45.00]
10 x Freeguild Archers (100)
[average damage: 2.25, effective wounds: 12.00]
10 x Freeguild Archers (100)
[average damage: 2.25, effective wounds: 12.00]Units
5 x Freeguild Outriders (120)
[average damage: 4.52, effective wounds: 15.00]
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (120)
[average damage: 4.94, effective wounds: 15.00]Battalions
Freeguild Regiment (210)Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150Total average damage: 58.92 (62.02 charge)
Total effective wounds: 403.80I have Bretonnian models for everything in the list:
SpoilerFreeguild General on Griffon = King on Hippogryph
Freeguild General = Noble Standard Bearer
Demigryph Knights = Knights of the Realm
Freeguild Greatswords = Bretonnian Foot Knights with Two Handed Weapons
Freeguild Guard = Bretonnian Foot Knights with Handweapons and Shields
Freeguild Crossbowmen = Bretonnian Crossbowmen
Freeguild Archers = Peasant Bowmen
Freeguild Outriders = Mounted Yeomen (converted)
Freeguild Pistoliers = Mounted Yeomen -
That's the lastest list I came up with. I included more Demigryph Knights as their points are reduced from 140 to 130 in GHB 2019. How do you like it?
SpoilerAllegiance: Hammerhal
Mortal Realm: UlguLeaders
King on Hippogryph (400)
- General
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
[average damage: 9.03 (9.77 charge, 16.31 Monster/Hero, 21.13 charge + Monster/Hero), effective wounds: 54.00]
Enchantress (160)
[average damage: 1.32, effective wounds: 10.00]
Damsel (100)
[average damage: N/A, effective wounds: 6.00]
Freeguild General (100)
- Shield & Lance
[average damage: 1.58 (2.25 charge), effective wounds: 15.00]
Battleline
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]
Units
10 x Grail Knights (360)
[average damage: 9.68 (21.73 charge, 15.60 Daemon/Death, 30.37 charge + Daemon/Death), effective wounds: 41.60]
6 x Demigryph Knights (260)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 12.22 (9.33 charge), effective wounds: 57.60]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 6.22 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 28.80]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 6.22 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 28.80]Total: 1880 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123Total average damage: 56.68 (67.87 charge)
Total effective wounds: 318.30All spells from Enchantress (Mystic Shield and Divine Favour) and Damsel (Divine Blessing) will be cast on the King. Together with his Master of Defense command trait and Champion of the People ability my hope is that he survives quite a while to kill as many enemy heroes and monsters as possible.
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4 minutes ago, Drakilian said:
They lost the reduced points for max sized squads.
Actually they never had any.
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7 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
5 Grail Knights:
Attacks:
10x Pendant Lance. 3+ Hit. 3+ Wound. Rend -1. Damage 2.
10x Warhorse. 4+ Hit. 4+ Wound. Rend 0. Damage 1.
Hits:
6.67 Pendant Lance Hits. [8.89 with with Enchantress]
5 Warhorse Hits. [7.5 with Enchantress]
Wounds:
4.44 Pendant Lance Wounds. [5.93 with Enchantress]
2.5 Warhorse Wounds. [3.75 with Enchantress]
Damage:
5.93 Pendant Lance Damage. [7.90 with Enchantress]
1.25 Warhorse Wounds. [1.88 with Enchantress]
Total: 7.18 Damage. [9.78 with Enchantress]Correct numbers in red. I think you rounded your numbers after each step. I created formulas to calculate everything at once and round only once at the end.
At Mounted Yeomen I made a mistake as I copied the formula from Pegasus Knights and forgot to change their attacks from 2 to 1. Your number is almost correct, the correct value is 3.04 not 3.05. Probably because you rounded between calculating steps.
Quoteboth Demigryph Knights and Freeguild Greatswords are down in points
Demigryph Knights will have points reduction in GHB 2019, maybe from 140 down to 130 or even 120.
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10 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
Were the offensive numbers alright or did I make mistakes there as well?
Your Knights Errant, Knights of the Realm and Pegasus Knights were right.
Here are my numbers. Average damage against save 4+:
8 Knights Errant: 3.13 / 3.65 (Damsel) / 5.00 (charge) / 5.83 (Damsel + charge) / 6.67 (King + charge) / 7.78 (King + Damsel + charge)
8 Knights of the Realm: 3.50 / 6.00 (charge) / 7.67 (King + charge) / 4.67 (Battlemage) / 7.67 (Battlemage + charge) / 9.81 (King + Battlemage + charge)
16 Knights of the Realm: 7.97 / 13.48 (charge) / 17.24 (King + charge) / 10.63 (Battlemage) / 17.24 (Battlemage + charge) / 22.07 (King + Battlemage + charge)
5 Questing Knights: 4.51 / 7.77 (Monster) / 5.74 (King + charge) / 9.81 (King + charge + Monster)
5 Grail Knights: 3.47 / 7.18 (charge) / 5.69 (Daemon/Death) / 10.14 (charge + Daemon/Death) / 4.84 (Enchantress) / 9.78 (Enchantress + charge) / 7.80 (Enchantress + Daemon/Death) / 13.73 (Enchantress + charge + Daemon/Death) / 9.07 (King + charge) / 12.78 (King + charge + Daemon/Death) / 10.86 (King + Enchantress + charge) / 15.19 (King + Enchantress + charge + Daemon/Death)
10 Grail Knights: just double all numbers above
3 Pegasus Knights: 1.92 / 3.86 (charge)
5 Mounted Yeomen: 1.58
10 Mounted Yeomen: 3.04
3 Demigryph Knights: 3.38 (Lance & Sword) / 3.67 (Cavalry Halberd) / 4.83 (Lance & Sword + charge) / 6.22 (Lance & Sword + Freeguild General) / 6.61 (Cavalry Halberd + Freeguild General)A question I came up with:
As long as the Standard Bearers in Bretonnian Knight units just give you reroll battleshock, there seems to be no reason to actually take one in a unit as you already get that bonus from the order allegiance abilities. Is there any reason or advantage for having a standard bearer I missed? -
9 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
Cavalry unit durability on the charge:
[8 Knights Errant] Defensive: Wounds: 16. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 24/26 at Rend 0 for 200 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)
[8 Knights of the Realm] Defensive: Wounds: 16. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 24/26 at Rend 0 for 220 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)
[5 Questing Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 10. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 15/16.25 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)
[5 Grail Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 10. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 15/16.25 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)
[10 Mounted Yeomen] Defensive: Wounds: 20. Save: 6+. Effective Wounds: 23.34/23.99 at Rend 0 for 200 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)
[3 Pegasus Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 12. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 18/19.5 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)
I am sorry, but it seems your durability numbers are wrong.
8 Knight Errant or Knights of the Realm have 32 Effective Wounds (38.4 on the charge)
5 Questing Knights or Grail Knights have 20 Effective Wounds (24 on the charge)
3 Pegasus Knights have 24 Effective Wounds (28.8 on the charge)
10 Mounted Yeomen have 24 Effective Wounds (24.83 on the charge)
A 4+ save effectively doubles the amount of wounds as you save wounds half of the time. A 5+ save adds 50% to the wounds and a 6+ save adds 20%.- Save 6+: 120% Effective Wounds
- Save 5+: 150% Effective Wounds
- Save 4+: 200% Effective Wounds
- Save 3+: 300% Effective Wounds
- Save 2+: 600% Effective Wounds
With rerolling 1s it would be:
- Save 6+: 124% Effective Wounds
- Save 5+: 164% Effective Wounds
- Save 4+: 240% Effective Wounds
- Save 3+: 450% Effective Wounds
- Save 2+: 3600% Effective Wounds
With rerolling all fails it would be:
- Save 6+: 144% Effective Wounds
- Save 5+: 225% Effective Wounds
- Save 4+: 400% Effective Wounds
- Save 3+: 900% Effective Wounds
- Save 2+: 3600% Effective Wounds
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3 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
Also, after looking at the Demigryph Knight stat lines for their price cost I feel like the Bretonnians are on an even shorter end of the stick than I initially thought.
Offensive comparison:
16 Knights of the Realm do 7.97 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their melee attacks (including horses). When charging the average damage increases to 13.48 against targets with save 4+. A regular game has 5 rounds, 5 turns for each player. They can only charge in your own turn, so let's assume they charged at 20% of the turns in a game. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 4 * 7.97 + 13.48 = 45.36 damage. Their points cost is 440 for a unit of 16 so you pay 9.70 points per damage they do.
3 Demigryph Knights with Lance and Sword do 3.38 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their melee attacks (including demigryphs). When charging the average damage increases to 4.83 against targets with save 4+. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 4 * 3.38 + 4.83 = 18.35 damage. Their points cost is 140 for a unit of 3 so you pay only 7.62 points per damage they do. So damagewise they perform 27% better than Knights of the Realm compared to their points.
Defensive comparison:Knights of the Realm have 2 wounds and a 4+ save. They can reroll 1s on the save when they charge. So a single Knight of the Realm has 4.00 effective wounds when saving wounds from regular attacks with no rend. This increases to 4.80 wounds on the charge. Let's assume the same as above, so a whole unit of 16 has 64.00 effective wounds and 76.80 wounds on the charge, which I combine to (4 * 64.00 + 76.80) / 5 = 66.56 effective wounds. Their points cost is 440 for a unit of 16 so you pay 6.61 points per effective wound the unit has.
Demigryph Knights have 4 wounds and a 4+ save. They reroll 1s on the save at any time, not only when they charge. So a single Demigryph Knight has 9.60 effective wounds when saving wounds from regular attacks with no rend. The whole unit of 3 has 3 * 9.60 = 28.80 effective wounds. Their points cost is 140 for a unit of 3 so you pay only 4.81 points per effective wound the unit has. This makes them 36% more durable than Knights of the Realm compared to their points.
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4 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
King On Hippogryph -Legendary Fighter, Sword of Judgement
Freeguild General on Steed - Lance & Shield
Enchantress - Unicorn
Damsel - Pegasi
Archmage - Steed
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Grail Knights - Banner & Trumpeter
16 Knights of the Realm - Gallant, Banner & Trumpeter
Total Points: 1,960Funny, I came up with the same list except, that I replaced the unit of 16 Knights of the Realm with 3 units of 3 Demigryph Knights which can be buffed by the Freeguild General once they are in combat. I don't see a problem with Bravery. Archers are chaff anyway and are supposed to die or flee. Grails Knights won't flee as long as the King is alive. Demigryph Knights are only 3 models and their standard rule says that they only have to test for battleshock when 2 or more die, so you will have only 1 left anyway.
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2 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
Then I have to find a Fay Enchantress model (Lady help me that won't be cheap) and two or three mounted Damsels. Of which, I need to convert two to be able to ride a pegasi... Then I have to find a suitable model for an Archmage on Horse (Another Damsel???) and a good substitute for a Battlemage (I REGRET selling that Elven mage two years ago) to cover the potential composition variations.
Here are mine:
There is no conversion needed when you use this mounted damsel model. Just put her on a Pegasus:
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57 minutes ago, oscisi said:
Unfortunately that’s a no, at least for this year. See the new article about GHB 2019: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/09/coming-soon-the-generals-handbook-2019/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=AoS&utm_content=AoSGHpreview09June
Free peoples are getting some updates but Bretonnia is not mentioned.
Bretonnia is not explicitly mentioned, but they mention Compendium units, so there is still hope that they could at least adjust the points costs for Bretonnia for 2nd edition.
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2 minutes ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
What are others thoughts on the matter? Do you prefer your Bretonnians to be the only aspect of the army, or are you willing to fortify them with troops from other factions?
Why not use other warscrolls? You have no benefit from using pure Bretonnian warscrolls. I have no problems using Freeguild warscrolls for my Bretonnians where I see them fit. As long as I still use the Bretonnian models for them it still feels like playing Bretonnia and that's what counts for me. Thus I would never use Freeguild/Empire models. As long as I see a Bretonnian army on the table it is just not important which rules/warscrolls I actually use for them.
I even have a bunch of old Bretonnian crossbowmen models (back from 3rd edition WHFB) to be used as Freeguild Crossbowmen.
My old Bretonnian Knights on foot, used as Freeguild Guard with Swords and Shields:
Btw. did you notice the latest news from Warhammer Community concerning the upcoming GHB 2019?
QuoteFor your list-writing convenience, all the new Pitched Battle profiles will be printed separately in a booklet of their own, including the latest points adjustments plus profiles for a number of Compendium units, endless spells and terrain.
So the GHB 2019 may include point adjustments for Bretonnia.
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7 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:
Just want to check and see if I'm understanding this right. @Duke of Gisoreux @HanzoKurosawa
The King (normally) hits on a 3+ when using his normal stateline. If targeting a monster or hero he gains a re-roll to hit. If he has Divine Blessing bestowed upon him this becomes a 2+ to hit. If he has his own ability active this becomes a 1+ to hit. Each hit wounds on a 3+ and causes D6 wounds at Rend -1.
With the Sword of Judgement equipped his hit rolls of a 6 automatically cause D6 mortal wounds without rolling to wound. If under the effects of Divine Blessing this becomes a 5+, and if his ability is active then it will drop down to a 4+.
So in an ideal charge when rolling to hit, any rolls of 1 are re-rolled, any rolls of 2 and 3 then roll to wound and any rolls of 4+ automatically cause D6 mortal wounds. Is this correct?
Yes, that's correct. When you calculate the probabilities this leads to the average damage values I posted above.
7 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:Quick side question @Duke of Gisoreux, how do the Freeguild archers perform compared to the Peasant Bowmen and what is their cost like?
32 Peasant Bowmen do 3.21 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their regular shooting attacks. With arrowstorm (once per battle) they do 12.54 damage on average against targets with save 4+. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 4 * 3.21 + 12.54 = 25.38 damage. Their points cost is 400 for a unit of 32 so you pay 15.76 points per damage they do.
30 Freeguild Archers do 5.72 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their regular shooting attacks. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 5 * 5.72 = 28.6 damage. Their points cost is 300 for a unit of 30 so you pay only 10.49 points per damage they do. So they do about 50% more damage than the Peasant Bowmen compared to their points. In addition they are Battleline and the Peasant Bowmen are not.
This can be even further improved by adding a Freeguild General when he uses his command ability on them which gives +1 to hit and +1 to wound:
30 Freeguild Archers do 9.00 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their regular shooting attacks when supported by a Freeguild General's command ability. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 5 * 9.00 = 45.00 damage. Their points cost is 300 for a unit of 30, the Freeguild General is 100 points and 5 command points are 250 points. Freeguild General can support up to 3 units at once so I add only one third of the point costs. So points would be 300 + (100 + 250) / 3 = 417 points, so you pay only 9.26 points per damage they do. This is even 70% better than Peasant Bowmen compared to their points.
Freeguild Crossbowmen perform even a lot better:
30 Freeguild Crossbowmen do 8.44 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their regular shooting attacks. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 5 * 8.44 = 42.20 damage. Their points cost is 300 for a unit of 30 so you pay only 7.11 points per damage they do. This is 121% better than Peasant Bowmen compared to their points.30 Freeguild Crossbowmen do 15.70 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their regular shooting attacks when supported by a Freeguild General's command ability. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 5 * 15.70 = 78.50 damage. Points cost are the same as the Freeguild Archers, so you pay only 5.31 points per damage they do. This is even 197% better than Peasant Bowmen compared to their points.
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2 hours ago, HanzoKurosawa said:
This means on average you do 3.5D6 mortal wounds to any hero or monster
Actually the average is even 4D6 mortal wounds because the king rerolls all fails to hit against heroes and monsters.
The king's damage average on the charge is 23.76 against heroes and monsters with save 4+. Without charging and without his command ability he still does 19 damage on average against heroes and monsters with save 4+. This includes the Hippogryph's attacks as well.
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On 5/25/2019 at 7:52 PM, Drakilian said:
The list I use in all my battle reports is the same as my adepticon list with me changing my command trait:
King on Hippogryph (400pts) - General, Sword of Judgement, and Strategic Genius
Enchantress (160pts)
Damsel (100pts) - On a Pegasus
Archmage (100pts) - On a Horse
Battlemage (120pts) - Amber
Man-at-arms x16 (120pts) - Full command
Knight Errants x8 (200pts) - Full command
Knights of the Realm x16 (440pts) - Full command
Grail Knights x10 (360pts) - Full command
I enjoyed watching your battle reports on MWG. Based on your army list I toyed a little bit around with your Men-At-Arms tactics and had game with the following list against Fyreslayers.
Allegiance: Hammerhal
Mortal Realm: UlguLeaders
King on Hippogryph (400)
Bretonnian Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Pegasi
- Trait: Legendary Fighter
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Enchantress (160)
Damsel (100)Battleline
16 x Knights of the Realm (440)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and ShieldsUnits
5 x Grail Knights (180)
5 x Grail Knights (180)
5 x Grail Knights (180)Total: 1940 / 2000
Wounds: 107I always use allegiance Hammerhal so you get at least +1 Bravery for all your units for free while keeping the Order allegiance traits.
I gave the artefact to the Bretonnian Lord instead of the King on Hippogryph to split attraction between the two. I also replaced the Men-At-Arms by two units of Freeguild Guard with Swords and Shields because they can take more damage for their points as they have a 4+ save with reroll 1s. I displayed them using my old Foot Knight models.
We had four objectives, one in your own territory which is worth 1 victory point for you but 4 for your opponent and two objectives in the center which were two victory points each. I had the first turn and the Freeguild Guards ran and claimed both objectives in the center. So I earned 5 victory points in my first turn.
Of course my Freeguild Guard got charged, but they stayed alive longer than expected. In my second turn I managed to charge with almost every knight unit and they inflicted massive damage. I charged the enemy general (Runefather on Magmadroth) with my Bretonnian Lord which had +1 to hit from his own ability on the charge, +1 to hit from the King's command ability and another +1 to hit from the Enchantress' spell. So thanks to the Sword of Judgement he inflicted D6 mortal wounds on a 3+, 2s were regular hits, rerolling fails (1s). I inflicted 4D6 mortal wounds and killed the Runefather on Magmadroth. In the end I won the game by 25 - 15. 😎
Thoughts about the army list:
Generally the tactics worked really well. But I came up with the following ideas.
Having 3x 5 Grail Knights is too much. They die too fast from shooting for their points. Their save isn't better than the one of the other knights, but they are much more expensive. So I would only take a unit of 10 in the future.
I also had the idea to use Freeguild Archers as shielding units. They have the advantage that they get a free move after deployment, so you don't have to run them to reach the center of the battlefield. So if you get first turn, they would move 10" and could still shoot at the enemy as they have a 18" range with their bows. You could use Bretonnian Bowmen models to display them.
Another idea I had was to replace the Knights of the Realm with Demigryph Knights as they do even slightly more damage compared to their points cost and are also more reliable as they have 4 wounds each with 4+ save and always reroll 1s on the save. So you could replace the unit of 16 Knights of the Realm (440 points) with 3 units of 3 Demigryph Knights each (420 points). When adding a Freeguild General you could use his command ability on the Demigryph Knights when they get stuck in prolonged combat to massively improve their damage output (+1 to hit / +1 to wound).
(Sorry for proxying Knights Errant models as Knights of the Realm as I had not rebased their models at this time)
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On 6/3/2019 at 7:53 AM, Kramer said:
You also seem like the perfect person to ask. How do the daemon slayers compare sizewise to the Vulkite/Heartgaurd bezerkers?
Just take a look!
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I miss the "All" button. 😉
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On 5/18/2019 at 7:01 PM, Equinox said:
It is hard to makeout the actual rules in the video, but I don't see a restriction that prevents Nagash from being in a Legion of Grief. I am assuming like @malakithe that LoG is considered part of LoN and thus all the rules in that Battletome would apply, but I could be wrong. Would be interesting if Nagash could be included, but I highly doubt it.
The rules don't prevent it. They just say that units with DEADWALKERS, DEATHLORDS, DEATHMAGES, DEATHRATTLE and NIGHTHAUNT keywords are allowed in a Legion of Grief. Thus Nagash seems to be allowed as he has the DEATHLORDS keyword.
Only restriction is that you have to include Lady Olynder in your army and make her the general as soon as another Mortarch (Arkhan, Mannfred or Neferata) is also included in the army.
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Here's a little collection update:
I own all Battleline units in the game now, which means I have at least one unit of each existing Battleline. So concerning Battlelines I am at 100%. 😉
SpoilerBattlelines
Bretonnia – Knights Errant
Bretonnia – Knights of the Realm
Bretonnia – Men-At-Arms
Darkling Covens – Dreadspears
Darkling Covens – Bleakswords
Darkling Covens – Darkshards
Daughters of Khaine – Witch Aelves
Daughters of Khaine – Sisters of Slaughter
Dispossessed – Warriors
Dispossessed – Longbeards
Free Peoples – Freeguild Guard
Free Peoples – Freeguild Archers
Free Peoples – Freeguild Crossbowmen
Free Peoples – Freeguild Handgunners
High Elves – Highborn Spearmen
High Elves – Highborn Silver Helms
Idoneth Deepkin – Namarti Thralls
Kharadron Overlords – Arkanaut Company
Seraphon – Saurus Warriors
Stormcast Eternals – Liberators
Swifthawk Agents – Reavers
Sylvaneth – Dryads
Wanderers – Glade Guard
Wood Elves – Glade RidersBeasts of Chaos – Gors
Beasts of Chaos – Ungors
Beasts of Chaos – Tzaangors
Blades of Khorne – Bloodreavers
Blades of Khorne – Blood Warriors
Blades of Khorne – Bloodletters
Maggotkin of Nurgle – Plaguebearers of Nurgle
Disciples of Tzeentch – Kairic Acolytes
Disciples of Tzeentch – Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
Hedonites of Slaanesh – Daemonettes
Legion of Azgorh – Infernal Guard Ironsworn
Slaves to Darkness – Chaos Warriors
Slaves to Darkness – Chaos Marauders
Skaventide – ClanratsGutbusters – Ogors
Greenskinz – Orruks
Bonesplitterz – Savage Orruks
Gloomspite Gitz – Stabbas
Gloomspite Gitz – Shootas
Gitmob Grots – GrotsFlesh-Eater Courts – Crypt Ghouls
Legions of Nagash – Zombies
Legions of Nagash – Dire Wolves
Legions of Nagash – Skeleton Warriors
Nighthaunt – Chainrasp Horde
Tomb Kings – Skeletal Legionnaires
Tomb Kings – Skeleton Horsemen
Tomb Kings – Skeleton Chariots-
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The reason for the oval base for Pegasus Knights is pile in and to keep unit coherency easier. We were told that by a GW store employee.
So we used the base size for all Pegasus related models.
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We use the following base sizes for Bretonnia:
King on Hippogryph (60 mm)
Enchantress (75x42 mm)
Sacred Protector (75x42 mm)
Bretonnian Lord on Pegasus (75x42 mm)
Bretonnian Lord on Steed (60x35 mm)
Noble Champion (32 mm)
Noble Standard Bearer (60x35 mm)
Damsel on Pegasus (75x42 mm)
Damsel on Purebred Horse (60x35 mm)
Damsel on Foot (32 mm)
Knights Errant (60x35 mm)
Knights of the Realm (60x35 mm)
Questing Knights (60x35 mm)
Grail Knights (60x35 mm)
Pegasus Knights (75x42 mm)
Battle Pilgrims (25 mm)
Grail Reliquae (75x42 mm)
Men-At-Arms (25 mm)
Peasant Bowmen (25 mm)
Mounted Yeomen (60x35 mm)
Field Trebuchet (120x92 mm)
Trebuchet Crew (25 mm) -
Here are my Hedonites of Slaanesh at about 7500 points according to the new Battletome:
SpoilerAllegiance: Slaanesh
Leaders
Archaon (660)
The Masque (120)
Exalted Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (440)
Keeper of Secrets (360)
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (220)
Bladebringer, Herald on Seeker Chariot (160)
Bladebringer, Herald on Hellflayer (180)
Viceleader, Herald of Slaanesh (120)
Infernal Enrapturess, Herald of Slaanesh (140)
Daemon Prince (Slaanesh) (160)
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (Slaanesh) (140)
Lord of Chaos (Slaanesh) x5 (700)
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (Slaanesh) x2 (320)Battleline
90 x Daemonettes (990)
10 x Chaos Warriors (Slaanesh) (180)Units
22 x Seekers (528)
3 x Fiends (180)
5 x Chaos Knights (Slaanesh) (160)
2 x Chaos Chariots (Slaanesh) (160)Battalions
Hedonite Host x2 (240)
Supreme Sybarites x6 (720)
Epicurean Revellers x4 (720)
Seeker Cavalcade x2 (280)Total: 7480
Extra Command Points: 14-
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AoS 2 - Bretonnia Discussion
in Order
Posted
An interesting choice are Dragon Blades from Order Draconis. Their points just dropped from 140 to 120 (for a unit of 5) in GHB 2019.
They have equal or better stats than our Knights of the Realm. Their melee attack profiles are the same except that they have +1 attack compared to Knights of the Realm. They always reroll 1s on the save and even reroll 1s and 2s against shooting attacks. Dragon Blades even have +2 Move and +1 Bravery.
Their points in GHB 2019 are 120 for a unit of 5, so they cost 24 points per model. Our Knights of the Realm still cost 220 for a unit of 8, so they cost 27.5 points per model. So you get a unit that is superior or equal in all stats and cheaper in points.
Of course one could say: "Dragon Blades? But they are Aelves." Of course they are. They have the AELF keyword, but in my opinion you could easily use your Knights of the Realm models 1:1 for them . Concerning the AELF keyword you could state that they have aelven steeds which is the reason that they are faster. In the end they are just mounted knights you could easily add to your Bretonnian force and don't neccessarily need to get new models for them.