[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

griping start //

Every time i look at grimghasts, I get bitter at how good grave guard aren't.  I simply do not have the funds for another us$150 unit, and even if I did, I really don't think grimghasts look good in such huge units.

And yet every time I look at their rules, 30 grimghasts jusy look more and more like the best unit available to the army by a country mile.  Not just grave guard, but morghasts (even in LoN!), vargheists, knights of all varieties...  nothing apart from maybe skittles seem to come close, and even then only because of battleline requirements.  Are grimghasts way too good, or are the bulk of our units just terrible?  Are we doomed to an entire year of wraiths dominating every legion list, only to watch GH2019 nerf them into oblivion with a 60 point price hike per batch just as I finally break down and buy them?

Bah.  I'm probably just grumpy that I don't have the funds for them right now.  At least, not all in one go.

That, and i just really want my wights to be good, and, whether in the compendium or the grand alliance or the legions book, whether it's 2016, 2017, or 2018 points values, they just keep falling short.  But to have to stand them next to 'the same unit, but better in basically every way, oh and they're more than a full command point cheaper to boot' is just... disheartening.

// griping over

[AoS 2 - Legion of Sacrament Discussion]

Mostly because we don't have a lot of big boom magic.  You can get some of that out of endless spells, but the points costs involved, the chance of those spells being bounced back at you after you cast them, and the limit of each caster only attempting a single endless spell per turn, kind of limit that.

Our best spells tend to be more of the utility kind.  Debuffs from necromancer lore, stuff like pinions or soulpike on the vampire side.  There are some solid offensive spells - arkhan's curse of years, the vampire spell amaranthine orb, but while their potential damage might be reasonably high, they're also rather unreliable.  I can't tell you how many times I've thrown off a curse of years only to do no damage at all, or pulled off a double-cast orb only to wiff against every unit it passed over.

Don't get me wrong, our spells are great, but they aren't generally great at killing things.  They soften the enemy up for your units to hammer them, but that still means spending most of the points in your list on units to hammer with.

That said, if you wanted to try direct damage magic heavy list, maybe something like...

Spoiler

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Soul Harvest (Deathmages)
Vampire Lord (140)
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Artefact: Shroud of Darkness 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: Wristbands of Black Gold 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Allies
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
Mortis Engine (180)
Lords of Sacrament (130)
Umbral Spellportal (60)
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 180 / 400
Wounds: 145

 

That's just off the top of my head, you could probably put something better together if you tried.  I do kind of like the look of that, though.  Might try running something like that myself some day.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Sacrament Discussion]

 

2 hours ago, Josh said:

^ thats great but where  do i find all the design notes?

eg; the page not the actual document

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

[AoS 2 - Legion of Sacrament Discussion]

The battalions in the Nighthaunt battletome do not list an allegiance, and nothing in the 2e rules refers to a battalion's allegiance.  The 2e rules do not, for instance, say that units within one of your faction's battalions don't count as allied units.  That seems to be an faq answer written for 1e that does not match the 2e rules at all.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Sacrament Discussion]

1 hour ago, Mikeymajq said:

Still it's at least usable now ?

Certainly a rule to remember, as it will be nice when it triggers.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Sacrament Discussion]

2 hours ago, Mikeymajq said:

So uh. Did 'The masters teachings' change at all? Or is a free unit back on a 4+ now?

Yeah it's free now, although triggering it is still pretty unlikely.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

Yeah, if anything gets nerfed, it will be the portal.  Possible nerfs include: points increase (honestly, portals and purple sun swapping points costs wouldn't be unjustified, imo), shortened range (perhaps only 9" or 12" between gates instead of 18"), only one spell cast through it per turn, etc.

For now, though, it's a dominant force for any magic heavy lists, and spells that would be horrifically overpowered except for their limited range, like hand if dust, are positively silly with it.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

Good job!  Remember that endless spells are dispelled only at the start of the hero phase, so you have to leave the doors open for a turn, then close and reopen them next turn.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Sacrament Discussion]

In 1e, battalions had allegiances, in 2e, that doesn't seem to be the case.  If the units are in your army, normally or as allies or both, then it seems you can use the battalion, and the points for the battalion itself do not come from your allies limit.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

8 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

You can only dispell endless spells at the start of the hero phase. So you can only do so before your other casting, not after.

I meant [close and reopen] next turn.  Like, do both next turn.

If you keep doing that, then you don't get to cast other endless spells unless you have other wizards to cast them with though.  Which does put a damper on Nagash's output in terms of shere damage, especially against hordes.

But sitting still with Nagash feels like a waste of Nagash.  He's so expensive, you have to be putting all of his potential to use to justify him, and that includes is maneuverability and melee.  And even if you don't move, your opponent will, and you'll still need to reposition the portals to try for another hand of dust, which you'll probably want to do.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

Nagash has so many casts.  Just close the portal and re-open it next turn.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Sacrament Discussion]

Right now, a spellcaster who is neither a deathmage nor a vampire nor a deathlord can take spells from either lore, but while it's a clear reading, it's also a rather tenuous one that could come down either way in future errata/faq updates.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

Grave Guard are rather points inefficient, sadly.  They're not so bad that you can't field a unit or two and make them work if you like them aesthetically, but even then I wouldn't really advise building a whole list around them.  And yeah, a lot of the power of the Legions in general, and Grand Host in particular, comes from hordes of summonable units, in particular basic skeletons.  You might want to consider Legion of Night or Blood, as their playstyle and allegiance abilities lean more towards elite stuff.  No nagash, but Legion of Night goes a long long way with a dragon lord, a couple units of harbingers, and a terrorgheist, plus maybe an allied terrorgheist and just a few dire wolves to grab objectives and gum up charge lanes, and Legion of Night can make the Castellans of Dread Keep work, again relying on some dire wolves for battleline.  If it's an aesthetic thing, fenrisian wolves make good dire wolf substitutes and look really good, though admittedly they're a bit pricey.

All that said, Nagash is a beast and a half, and morghasts are pretty hurty, especially in grand host.  You can definitely build a working, if perhaps not optimal, list around them - with or without a few tiny grave guard units to qualify for a first cohort.  The problem will come in holding objectives, which in many scenarios is difficult to do without some bigger units.  It's not unplayable, though.  I'd definitely proxy it a few times before buying that many morghasts.

 

Test out something like:

Nagash

Coven Throne with Ethereal Amulet (Shyish Relic)

2 Archai with glaives

2 Archai with glaives

2 Harbingers with glaives

2 Harbingers with glaives

Umbral Spellportals

 

See how it goes for you.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

6 hours ago, lare2 said:

Got a local tourney soon and a practise game Friday so will try out your spell recommendations and let you know. Cheers mate. 

Might've got that wrong. The new hero protection, - 1 to hit or +1 to the save? Can't remember which and the book's upstairs... I'm bone idle by nature. If the save, you're right. I was getting excited and the ethereal relic would nullify it. 

The new look out sir is -1 to hit for shooting attacks targeting non-monster heroes that are near friendly units of sufficient size.  Not as good as +1 save in many cases, but fully compatible with ethereal.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

From a purely mechanical perspective, I would recommend trading both the grave guard and the black knights for a second unit of 40 skeletons, though I certainly understand if you might reject that on aesthetic grounds.

You might also consider swapping up your artefacts slightly.  Timeglass/diadem is a standard combo, but provided you don't play exclusively against leadership 10 opponents, it might be worth your while to switch the diadem to the non-general necromancer, drop the timeglass, and give the winged vamp the terrorgheist mantle.  The banshee screams provided by the cloak can do a lot more damage than the timeglass, especially combined with leadership penalties from banners and overwhelming dread.

And, as I mentioned in my reply to lare2, you might want to consider spectral grasp, which combines very well with umbral spellportal.  Fading vigour is also great, so I wouldn't call your current spell setup wrong, just something to try out a couple times.  I know I was slightly disappointed with spectral grasp in a few games before 2e, since the range meant a lot of times even at half movement by the time you were tagging enemy units with it they were often where they wanted to be anyway.  But the double range from Balewind made it amazing in 1e, especially if you were stuck going first, and spellportals should do about the same job in 2e.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

Without arkhan in the list, I'd shy away from soul harvest.  It doesn't do nearly as much as you'd think with nagash's huge base size, since so often opponents in melee range will die off or run away before your next hero phase.  With the spellportals it isn't unplayable, but I still think there are better choices to go for.  Decrepify can be very useful in crippling the few heroes strong enough to really threaten nagash,  Fading vigour is a very powerful unit debuff, especially layered on top of overwhelming dread.

Probably my strongest suggestion would be spectral grasp.  Combined with the spellportals it has a really wide reach across the board.  Potentially crippling the movement of multiple enemy units with a single spell from that sort of range can be game winning in and of itself.

....

Where are you getting the 2+ save vs. shooting on the wight from?  His save is just a flat 3+, regardless of shooting or close combat.  Even if he did have a save modifier against shooting, the 'no positive or negative modifiers' wording on ethereal now would prevent you from benefiting from it, unless the wording on that artefact is different.

Regardless, making that save ethereal is probably pretty good.  I'm still not sure if I'd rather have the diadem on him instead.  Tough call there.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

In that case, I'd definitely take the extra command point, as you'll need some spare points if you ever want to use the wight king's command ability, which is the main (mechanical) point of taking it in the first place.  two extra command points (one from formation, one from underpoints) will let you use nagash's command ability every turn (which you absolutely should do), bring back one summonable unit during the game (which should be saved for the big unit of skellies), and use the wight king's command ability in exactly one important combat.

What are your thoughts on faction spells for Nagash & the Necromancer?  For artefacts?  The default "best" choices for grand host are, in my mind, ossific diadem and gravesand timeglass, but there might be something better among the realm-of-origin based artefacts in the malign sorcery book, if your community seems inclined to use those.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

archai are taken for the extra protection from mortal wounds, something they'll still have over vargheists, but is mostly only mechanically preferred in the first cohort formation, in which vargheists are not an option.

harbingers are taken for the extra charge distance, which they still have over vargheists and which still makes them a better speedy offensive hammer in many cases, particularly legion of night outflanking, though that isn't relevant here.

In legion of nagash, vargheists have 10 attacks for 160 points, and have a 1/6 chance of making additional attacks when they kill enemy models, compared to morghasts with swords, which are 220 points for 12 attacks (morghasts have +1 attack in legion of nagash).  To have the same number of attacks, vargheists have to kill an average of 12 models with their initial round of attacks, which is possible but unlikely.  But they do cost less to start.  They have the same number of wounds.  vargheists have a worse save, and don't have archai's extra protection from mortal wounds, but again are cheaper.  vargheists move faster, but don't have the extended charge range of harbingers.

In general, vargheists compare generally favorably to sword-armed morghasts, especially in legion of blood or sacrament armies, but that's not really the comparison you should be making, because morghasts in general should probably be taking the halberds regardless, and then the quality of the attacks generated start looking very different.  -2 rend is very hard to come by in a legion of nagash army, and the total damage output of 8 attacks at 3 damage is noticeably higher than that of 10 2 damage attacks even in cases where the extra rend isn't relevant.

In general, I would lean towards morghasts in LoN armies as a result.  Again, especially for the extra rend.  enemies where that extra rend isn't relevant can probably be poked to death with skittle spears anyway.  But vargheists are far from a bad unit.  and the comparison is no where near as lopsided as it is for, say, skeletons vs. grave guard.

 

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

what's the rest of your list?  Do you have another caster, or is it just nagash?  What's your battleline like: msu, or one big skittle block, or two?  In general, I'd go for the extra command point in your situation, but depending on the rest of your list I could see it going either way.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

2 hours ago, choocheelo said:

any thoughts?

I get the appeal of the extra command point, between that and the cohort, you can use Nagash's command ability every turn, and still have two points left to resummon slain units.

That said, dropping the extra point gets you enough for a cairne wraith, which would allow you to take both the ossific diadem and the gravesand timeglass, and you'd still have one point spare for endless legions.  Do you really think the opponent is going to successfully carve through 40 skeletons twice over in the same game?

Otherwise, it looks more or less like what I'd imagine a typical first cohort list to look like in 2e, and should be right nasty against any opponent who can't put 30 wounds on nagash or kill 80 unbreakable skeletons within the first couple battle rounds, which is to say, against most anyone.

I don't recommend it for casual play.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

5 hours ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

That's right.  Allegiance abilities like the Lore Spells are not available to allies.  

BUT.... Guardian of Souls CAN take an extra spell, and from either Lore to boot, since it is now LoN legal.  Makes no sense tbh, but is in keeping with RAW.

I firmly expect this to be errata'd away any day now.  I'm honestly surprised it wasn't addressed in the initial round of 2e faqs.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

5 hours ago, smucreo said:

Well, for now I'd count it as highly unlikely for a long while. Considering all Death got in these last few months I'd say they will probably start focusing on Destruction next, and also since Soulblight appear on the LoN battletome as an allegiance I wouldn't hold my breath for now.

I didn't mean that we'd might see a soulblight battletome, I meant that the nighthaunt battletome might not produce a faction meaningfully more viable than soulblight is under Legions of Nagash currently.  That's probably being needlessly pessimistic on my part, granted.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

19 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Well, at least Nighthaunt is worth something, unlike Soulblight ?

This is probably true, but still depends heavily on content we haven't seen yet, so it's best not to go counting unhatched chickens, imo.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

I'm honestly quite annoyed that Olynder isn't a deathlord.  She's supposed to be a mortarch.  Neferata and Mannfred get to be both Deathlords and Soulblight.

[AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion]

Would want to find room for some endless spells.  Pallisades could be the difference between undeath and just just death for olynder, but even more than that, Nagash, vain as he is, would never leave the house without his mirrors.