Dracan
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Posts posted by Dracan
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1 hour ago, Sception said:
With every passing day it becomes more and more clear that Petrifex is best by so much that it breaks the whole faction.
Simply put, petrifex versions of units are so much better than the other legion or non legion versions of those same units that they cannot justifiably be played at the same points cost. For each and every unit, either the petrifex version is underpriced by 20 points or more, or else the non petrifex version is overpriced by the same amount.
They need a nerf. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't see one in the first faq. Then again, I'm surprised they made it through testing as is to begin with.
TBH it feels like if they had to nerf petrifix they will have to do pretty hectic point drops on various units. (some need it already out of the box)
Yes Petrafix is mostly better than all the other factions, but without it I dont see OBR competing.
I dont think OBR are broken or OP because of the +1 save. I feel they need it to be able to compete on the higher tiers, without it they will probably not feature on top tables.
Thus a buff to other sub factions are needed, instead of the heavy handed nerf hammer to the one subfaction that's actually worth anything.
Overall internal balance of the book does feel out of whack sadly.
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13 hours ago, Major said:
Looking for people opinions as I have 3 boxes and no idea what build to choose - Stalkers or Guard?
i did the math couple of pages back.
Immortis are actually surprisingly offensive, thing is though, rerolling the 3 save for stalkers makes them even more durable than immortis on a 2+ save , but then drop way down on offensive capability. (Petrifix army)Stalkers are more choppy with -1 rend and damage aspect, but are then again less defensive. I think immortis are more forgiving in that they perform well in both roles and can tank for characters, but as stated above they cost so much that you could possibly have just gotten another character if all they are doing is standing backfield being ablative wounds for characters.
In the end I built my 6 as stalker cos... you know POWEEEERRRRR in Jeremy Clarkson voice over...
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Morghasts do have the 5+++ vs mortal wounds or the charge 3d6 thing, they have fly and M9. so they have something stalkers/immortis do not.
But still they are way overcosted as is.
Reckon the problem they have is sadly the duality in their loadout.
They should have made harbingers sword only bump up the attacks to 7 or 8 and made archia halberd only making the 5+++ save vs all wounds not just mortals, then they would be worth their current point cost.
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Hi there, did some math and it is such a shame Morgahsts compare so poorly with Stalkers and Immortis guard
based in a petrafix army.
Morghasts need to cast 170 odd points to fall in the mid range of defensive and offensive capability for stalker/immortis.
Costing them at 210 is insanity...
Im so sad 😢
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Thats a lot of dice, to push through wounds on characters. Really starting to like idea of Arkhan and archia retinue within aegis immortal batalion.
If arkhan suffers a wound, in petrafix he will have 3+ save a 6+++ death save then on 2+ archia gets the wound and saves on 3+ then 6+++. If it was a mortal wound its 6+++ then 2+ gets passed then 5+++ followed by 6+++.
And even better if the dice to pass the save is 5+ it just goes away
If my math is correct, if arkhan next to an archai within this batalion suffers a 100 no rend wounds he will only suffer 1 in 21.6 wounds. he will pass on 23.2 of which 9.25 will be ignored meaning archai would need to make 13.88 saves on 3+, of which they make 9.26 which leaves them with 4.63 deathless 6+++ saves of which they make 0.77. Meaning when all the dust settles, arkhan has taken 4.6 unsaved wounds and archai 3.85.
Better bring the rend otherwise neither of them are dying...
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Quick question, for the immortis guards soul bound protectors rule and its sequencing.
Do you make saves on the original target the hero and only after he fails all his saves, does it get passed to the immortis guard, or does the wound go to the guard on 2+ before you are eligible to make saves on the original target?
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1 hour ago, XReN said:
Volkmortian's battalion and by killing 10+ wound models near Harvesters
I didnt get feast of bones, do you maybe know what the rules , requirements and points are for the Volkmortian batalion?
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I really want to try some of these from puppets of war. But unsure of scale and shipping being such an issue in my corner of the world makes me hesitant.
https://puppetswar.eu/models-and-bits-47/all-bits/heads.html
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Quick question regarding dethriders ability
You can use this command ability when a friendly KAVALOS DEATHRIDERS unit that includes a Mortek Hekatos finishes a charge
move. You can pick 1 enemy unit within 1" of that KAVALOS DEATHRIDERS unit and roll a
number of dice equal to the number of models in that KAVALOS DEATHRIDERS unit. For each
5+, the enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound. In addition, in the following combat phase, that KAVALOS DEATHRIDERS unit can move an
extra 3" when it piles in.do you guys think this is stackable?
ie. I use 4 cp and do 4x models mw on 5+ and then they are able to pile in 15" ??
charge chaff 10" away blow them up with mortal wounds pile into something other side of table???
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Looks like next week might turn out being expensive....
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Tried this the weekend, only had 1 game so far with it but it definitely feels like it has potential...
List has +1 to hit, re rolling all manner of 1s, fast centigors, glass cannon exploding monks and 3 units of grindy as hell kings, whats not to love.
reckon biggest issue is the very limited rend vs something like Seq and Castelant spam.
Allegiance: Nurgle
Leaders
Grashrak Fellhoof (140)
- Allies
Harbinger of Decay (160)
- General
- Trait: Grandfather's Blessing
- Artefact: The Witherstave
Festus the Leechlord (140)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (160)
- Runestaff
- Lore of Foulness: Plague Squall
Battleline
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
Units
5 x Grashrak's Despoilers (0)
10 x Centigors (160)
- Allies
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
- 1x Icon of Pestilence
- 1x Contagion Banner
- 1x Doom Gongs
- 1x Bale Chimes
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 300 / 400
Wounds: 208
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4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:
MATHHAMMER REVIEW PT 1.: THE SHOOTENING
I've completed my basic number crunching for shooting, and wow is this book's balance tight! I'm going to split things out into different categories and go in depth from there.
A note on the statistics I am using: I use a self made formula called Weighted Damage Rating to compare damage types across rend. It's not perfect but it gives a pretty accurate estimate of the value of different rend types and mortal wounds. Note that it is a measure of efficiency not absolute power: it shows basically the average expected damage (weighted for rend) that a unit will cause per point that you spent on it.
For defense, I use simple defensive efficiency: the expected wounds pre-save wounds it will take to kill a unit per point that the unit cost. I provide two ratings, one vs. rend - and one vs. mortal wounds. Performance for other rend types will fall somewhere in between these two numbers.
In both cases higher numbers are better.
I've used max unit sizes for all calculations.
ARTILLERY
Helblaster Volley Gun offense: .0216/.0251/.0287/.0335 for long range no engineer/long range engineer/point blank no engineer/point blank engineer firing 2 decks. For 3 decks its: .0194/.0291/.0259/.0388. This math assumes that with an engineer you will reroll any double and keep any other result. This may not be quite optimized.
Helstorm Rockets offense: .0255/.0297 for salvo without/with engineer. Numbers are lower if you don't use salvo fire.
Celestar Ballista: .0235/.0469 for single/multi shot
Analysis:
Overall these numbers are quite low at baseline, but they can be buffed quite a bit. A Lord-ordinator would help, and it might be that with the Greywater Fastness battalion, a Lord Ordinator, and a Runelord you can start getting things up to respectable levels for at least a turn. Personally I think there are better choices but I could see it working.
MISSILE INFANTRY
Offense:
Darkshards: .0671 - can benefit from additional +1 to hit/+2 to wound
Crossbows: .0674/.112 without/with freeguild general CA - can benefit from additional +1 to hit
Handgunners: .0611/.0954 without/with freeguild general CA - hit/wound capped
Irondrakes: .0827/.0876/.1026/.1082 non-monster/monster/with runelord buff vs. non-monster/with runelord buff vs. monster. Can benefit from +1 hit and +1 wound.
Shadow Warriors: .0406/.0672 outside/inside cover. Can benefit from +1 to wound (+1 to hit/+2 to wound outside cover)
Sisters of the Watch: .0877/.1096 without/with Nomad Prince CA. Can benefit from +1 wound.
Defense:
Darkshards: .15/.1 vs. r- and mw respectively
Crossbows/Handgunners: .12/.1
Irondrakes: .133/.067 vs. melee .2/.067 vs. ranged
Shadow Warriors: .136/.091
Sisters of the Watch: .09375/.0625
Analysis:
I think every one of these units is viable. While some clearly have much more efficient offense than others, the ones that have lower offense have other strengths that give them a role. Specifically, Darkshards enjoy greater mobility and have a bit more room for buffs than the other warscrolls. They don't need to stand still to get full value. Shadow Warriors, on the other hand, get that nice deepstrike.
The other options are all quite close together. For all of those folks upset over the crossbow nerf: it was needed. Crossbows are still the most efficient choice at baseline and they also enjoy excellent range. Their downside is that they can't stand and shoot. Aside from raw efficiency, their major buffer (the Freeguild General) can tag three units for one CP, which makes these a great choice as the backbone of a gunline.
Handgunners are still very good, albeit noticeably less efficient than crossbows. They do get the benefit of stand and shoot, however. They also have a more potent champion than most other units, with the long rifle providing very valuable hero sniping. Handgunners could be great in large numbers as a frontline or screen or good in MSU configuration to get a bunch of long rifles. The fact that the Freeguild General tags three with one CP could go a long way toward making MSU doable. It's worth noting that with just the FG buff, these guys should be at 2+/2+, so they don't benefit from any further buffs to scale them.
Irondrakes are a bit tougher and fall between crossbows and handguns in terms of efficiency. That said they offer nice rend, especially when buffed by a Runelord. If you want rend at range, these guys are a great choice. They don't get stand and shoot, but they sit at 3+/3+ normally and thus can be scaled to be even more efficient with further hit and wound bonuses. If you can get Irondrakes to 2+/2+, they end up much more efficient than even crossbows. That said, you do need a Runelord for every unit and even then the buff will sometimes fail... so it might not be viable to take 90 of them in the way you could with crossbows. Note that they do perform better than either handgunners or crossbows at baseline without any buffs.
Sisters of the Watch are almost as efficient as crossbows with basic buffs, can benefit from an extra +1 to wound, are more efficient without buffs, and can stand and shoot. All around great, but the most defensively inefficient. EDIT: corrected misinformation about the Nomad Prince CP.
MISSILE "CAVALRY"
Offense:
Gyrocopter bombs (once per battle): .06
Gyrocopter steam guns: .0074 per model hit (again, I'm assuming the full size three copter unit)
Gyrobomber bombs: .0514
Gyrobomber clattergun: .0253
Outriders: .0443/.0831 without/with general buff
Pistoliers: .0443/.0886 not charging/charging. I didn't factor in the general buff here because it's not realistic to pull off with Pistoliers.
Dark Riders: .0285
Scourgerunner Chariots: .0838
Defense:
Gyrocopters: .1333/.067
Gyrobombers: .143/.071
Outriders: .15/.1
Pistoliers: .15/.1
Dark Riders: .222/.111
Scourgerunner Chariots: .18/.12
Analysis:
Dark Riders are the only warscroll with really weak shooting efficiency. I was surprised at how good the chariots are. I don't think I'd take Outriders personally, but they are fine if you like them. Pistoliers are a bit more interesting, albeit at very short range. The gyros are both potentially very useful. The Gyrobomber can pick off heroes quite effectively with the bombs and the clattergun adds a bit of extra damage. The copters have a one shot bomb, but their steam guns can really do work against hordes. If you can reach 13 models with each copter, they will be just as efficient as any of the infantry (not counting the bombs either).
EDIT: Steam Tanks!
Steam Tank Cannon: .0121/.0161/.0202 default/+1hit/+2hit
Steam Gun: .0146/.0194 default/+1hit
Steam Gun (more pressure): .0188/.025 default/+1hit
Defense: .18/.06
The commander version will just be 25% worse on each mark.
Overall, I think these fall flat unfortunately. Even with impact hits and their command ability running their melee profile is also terrible. Combine that with random move and you have a very cool unit that just doesn't measure up.
Some very informative maths there.
Could you please add corsairs with handbows
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This is a lot of new wall and tower
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I feel meh..... and that is sad as I am a huge death fa'n and have every death army and have been looking very much forward to this, while some of it is nice, it looks mostly goofy or even warmachiney which is sad as the teasers and concept art is way more down my over the top grimdark ally... hope a better paint scheme or alternate builds/heads can fix them..
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24 minutes ago, Gwendar said:
@Dracan While I do like your 2nd list, I agree with Skreech in that I really don't think you need those Stormfiends... 3 just aren't going to be doing that much for you compared to what else you can get for those points. You could drop the Fiends and the Bell of Doom (not too great at protecting you from t1 charges\shooting if they opt to go first) and grab 20 Clanrats for a unit of 40 and then a Screaming Bell which gives you a built in Bell of Doom and plenty of other utility.. not to mention being quite good at holding a Hero\Wizard controlled objective. I would give this Death Frenzy and run it within range of the Monks for the BS immunity and to be in range of Death Frenzy.
You're focusing a lot on killiness but lack a bit in objective control\support. I would be curious to see how it works for you, after all, everyone's local meta is very different and player skill levels vary.. so it may work for you. Otherwise I would give my suggestion a thought to make your list more "well-rounded".You got me thinking... not in using more clan rats, but meybe i should just let go the idea of stormfiends as i agree id want to play 6 instead of 3. Soo why not double up on some of the other things, so thought about this:
Allegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (200)
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
- 1x Icon of Pestilence
- 1x Contagion Banner
- 1x Doom Gongs
- 1x Bale Chimes
9 x Warplock Jezzails (420)
Behemoths
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Endless Spells / Terrain
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 161
Double Hellpit increases the threat on the flank the furnace buffs the monks and also gives the BS immunity.
I am not very worried about keeping the clan rats alive tbh as they should be last priority, if someones targeting them, then 40 monks, 2 aboms and 9 jezzails get to kill whatever they want. I am mostly used to playing nurgle and beast who in general have a lot less models (granted summoning, mobility and durability is a factor) but reckon 120 small inf dudes are more than enough for me to be able to hold objectives. -
The reason for the Bell is solely to spend the last 40pts in that list if it was 50pts a Cp and 60pts it would be a ratling gun.
The hellpit has done some amazing lifting in some of my previous games so tbh id rather not drop it.The fiends are more in my mind a psychological piece seeing as the hellpit/monks and jezzails are the actual threats in their respected fields of expertise.
fiends are just too much of jack and too little master...I leaning towards the second list as well.
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So I'm going to my first tournament with my Skaven over the weekend and would like some advice on my list.
So first i had
Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer (140)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
6 x Stormfiends (520)
9 x Warplock Jezzails (420)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 140
But i felt i really wanted a unit of monks in there for some more bodies and a serious combat threat.
so got to this
Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer (140)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
3 x Stormfiends (260)
9 x Warplock Jezzails (420)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Bell of Doom (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 159
so he question is if the inclusion of the monks are worth losing 3 stormfiends and the ratling for? another alternative is trying to keep the 6 fiends and getting to this
Allegiance: Skaventide
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Chain Warp Lightning
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
6 x Stormfiends (520)
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
30 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 161
So the last list has no greyseer skitteleaping vortex shenanigans and I'm dropping jezzails down to 6 but fiends are back up to 6, but also monks are only 30 so no more double banner and muso and will also lose their + to hit & wound much quicker.
Any suggestions? -
Quite a lot if increased point on the skaven side ouch...
Like the fact they tried to fix FeC with ereta that allows for counter play rather than make everything 100pts more.
Gloomspite might turn from solid mid tier to very good after all these point drops too.
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Finally got around to finishing my FeC re basing project so thought id take the time to make some cards for the army and share them on here.
C&C welcome.
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I think a big factor in why there arent many truly competitive battle reports available especially the hand held ones (hate the top down ones myself), are that the players are to busy you know, being competitive gamers.
Anyone that has played in a tournament where they wanted to win ,or at least aimed to do well, can tell you there isn't much room for focusing on other things but your and the opponents armies together with the psychology of the opponent.
Miniweargaming is for background entertainment while painting, seeing decently painted armies going at it with the familiar sound of rolling dice and wtf moments.
Quite enjoy GMG and their lists are decent but they do get some rules wrong which is prob because he plays like 10 games systems on his channel and with only 1-3 AoS reports a month.
Doom and Darkness is very good for competitive and insightful at that but doesn't include the production values of above two.
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Just thinking wouldn't 40 ungor raiders also benefit from blades emensely? 40 shots rerolling 1s and 2s for 9 odd MW in addition to 13 odd normal wounds at 24"+d6 range which is something nurgle can really use.
I now wanna try 30 raiders and 10 centigors lol
Something like this:
Allegiance: Nurgle
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Leaders
Verminlord Corruptor (260)
- General
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
- Lore of Virulence: Glorious Afflictions
Harbinger of Decay (160)
Festus the Leechlord (140)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Battleline
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
Units
10 x Centigors (160)
- Allies
30 x Ungor Raiders (240)
- Allies
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
- 1x Icon of Pestilence
- 1x Contagion Banner
- 1x Doom Gongs
- 1x Bale Chimes
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 215
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Pretty disappointed in our point drops... doesnt feel like it changes anything and though magoth lords and flies are cheaper they still not worth considering which sucks as they are awesome models.
Thing is the vermin lord is still better than bloab and lord of affliction still doesn't have enough damage output for 200pts niether are 2 blightlords 40 pts better than 5 blightkings... was hoping both would drop to 180pts at most.
The other units that droped would rather require warcroll rewrites than points adjustments imo.
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1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:
Well in short? Yes. Its probably doing more harm than good, because the data is misleading and not minimally informative.
Long form. Basically you are measuring the total number of spiders globally seeing that some spiders are growing faster and suggesting that since these spiders seem to be growing faster they must be x because that is what you decided before hand you were looking to find out. But that isn't how stats work, because you haven't generated the data in a way to measure that.
But if you are actually interested in getting results on faction strength you need to have heavily constrained data sets.Constrained by time period, because the types of competition change drastically over time.
You need to quantify different game results, because if IDK are winning a large portion of their matchs by 3 or less points after 5 turns then the book is probably fine, if they are blowing out all of their wins in three tuns then we might have a problem.
you need strength of schedule to reduce the variance of in game difficulty between quality of players and the quality of factions
you need to know the subfaction lists are using to even begin to have real credibility about the mechanics of the faction. Fuethan play way differently than other enclaves and are more powerful given the culture of the game at the moment
I do not get the point of your argument on how this pertains to tiers in AoS in a competitive tournament scene... other than a lecture on statistics which tbh i agree with on the integrity of the data... but what is your point though?
We are discussing the fictional tier system of little toy soldier fantasy armies with almost infinite combinations of variables when you include the human factor. Do you agree sortof with the order in which these armies fall? if not other than saying stats are made up and points dont matter how do you rank the armies?
You must also remember that data isnt based on some backwater basement games, most if not all the tournaments they count are pretty darn big affairs with serious gamers trying to do their best, thus we can also assume they are mostly using the top ends of the book. and yes assume and stats and integrity dont go well together but again it is the only numbers we have.
based in a petrafix army.
AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion
in Death
Posted
How did you find the morghasts?