[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

Mor'phar and Nautilus are basically unplayable. I can't see any of our battalions being worth it, which is a shame, as it'd be great to sneak in both a cloud of midnight and the ethereal amulet to cover a King and an Eidolon

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

32 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I like my Reavers (style reasons) though they really never do anything and their melee attacks are better than their range attacks... they can skirmish a little I guess but currently they‘re overpriced for what they do (which is nothing at all). They‘d need to hit on 3s to do anything ever.

 

as for thrall: Thralls are great though they tend to die in one go. Perhaps you should hol them back until turn 3, then charge all in (using several units of 10) and hope to massacre the enemy.

apart from that I never take more than units of 10 due to battleshock losses hurt quite a lot.

 

the eels rock, though the morsarr guard is overpriced COMPARED to the ishlean guard. The 4+ ignoring rend is just way better than the once per battle MWs. Ishlean also deal damage in a way more consistent manner than their brethren (in my experience)

the leviadon is just all around great. =}

 

allopexes: they seem lackluster to me. Both the ranged attacks and the melee weapons seem lackluster for their points. They‘re really thematic though.

 

our heroes are fine except for the Soulscryer which is also lackluster (give him sth. He can fight with...his ability is fine and all but there‘s really not much to him)

I don't think it's the MW that are the main selling point of Morsarr, but the rend + damage on the spears.

We don't have a great deal of access to rend, and 3+/3+ - 2damage is extremely reliable, especially given our reliable access to rerolls

Ishlaenn damage is clearlydown compared to charging Morsarr, which you can almost definitely guarantee with soulscryer and their charge reroll. Plus you have a 50/50 for a double turn which can give you access to a double charge.

Anyway, let's do the numbers!

Both examples will use 3 models from each variant of Guard, fighting against a 4+ save, which is pretty common. I'm not accounting for the Prince's attack's, though this would tilt the example further in favour of Morsarr

Both sets of Guard are likely to do 3 wounds with their identical mounts:

1 wound from Fanged Maw
2 wounds from Lashing Tail

Ishlaenn Guard have a 62% chance of doing 2 wounds with their swords, and only a 30% chance to do 3 wounds

Bringing Ishlaenn to a total of 5 wounds

Morsarr Guard with spears on the charge have a 70% chance of doing 4 wounds, and a 30% chance of doing 6 wounds. 

So on the charge Morsarr will do 7 wounds to Ishlaenn's 5.

Without charging, the 3 Morsarr should do 1 wound between them with spears against a 4+ save, bringing their total to 4.

This means that when not charging, Morsarr are only 1 wound down on Ishlaenn's output, while on the charge, Morsarr pull out clearly ahead, with the added bonus of their MW output.

Furthermore, the variance in damage extends when you apply the Prince's attacks as well as any rerolls available.

Totally agree with you on Reavers, play them cause they look cool. I played like 3 games with them the other day though and I think they did about 2 wounds across all the games. Useful to leave them out front to be shot at, though!



 

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

28 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

So i currently have been playing with mostly thralls and reavers as that's what I bought first and haven't picked up many eels yet. As far as I'm concerned the thralls just aren't viable. 

They can do really great damage potential and there have been some good moments with them such as killing nagash and a maw crusher. The fact is though that at 1 wound 5up 6 bravery they deteriorate incredibly quickly. Even if you keep an eidolon nearby for the bravery buff it's not that hard to lose at least 10. The 5 up means they are super vulnerable against any kind of shooting even without rend, and in combat they hit hard but die faster.

Part of the problem is the bigger the unit you take the more units your opponent can get into combat. Even using a soul render doesn't keep them around long enough to do anything particularly useful. 

This has led me to conclude there is really no reason to take thralls. So I'm selling mine to fund an eel spree and hopefully recover my love of deepkin. 

You are saying they are not viable...but also that they’ve killed Nagash for you…

 

Not many Battleline can do that.

 

I agree eels are a ‘better’ unit, but they fulfil different roles.

 

Thralls aren’t godly machines that will chew through any army. You pay a price (low survivability) for their value (high damage), and they are one of only 2 routes we have to getting bodies on the table

 

Given that many scenarios require models to hold an objective, you have to choose between Thralls, Reavers, or going all in on eels and making sure you kill enough of the enemy

 

As I’ve detailed above, Reavers damage output is practically non-existent, and they are just as easy to kill.

You shouldn’t expect your thralls to win you the game, but your opponent ignoring them (providing the rest of your list is decent), means they can often spring surprises

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

20 hours ago, Tip4Tap said:

Hey guys I’m starting a deepkin army for AoS 2. I’m looking for advice on the army. I’ve got a few tournaments coming up and want to take the deepkin to these.

So far the list I’ve come up with is this:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

Realm: CHAMON

Enclave: FUETHÁN

LEADERS
Isharann Tidecaster 100 -General
--Born from Agony -Augury Shells -Spell: Abyssal Darkness

Isharann Soulscryer 100

Eidolon of Mathlann 440 -Spell: Steed of Tides

UNITS
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group

ENDLESS SPELLS Balewind Vortex 40

Total: 1980/2000

What do you guys think? 

I don't think you'll do enough damage. Reavers are really poor (despite being cool models).

I'd consider dropping one of your Ishlaen units, and replacing it with 6 more Morsarr, as well as thinking about trading out Reavers for Thralls.

It's important to be realistic about the output of a single unit of Reavers. over 9" you'd expect 1.5 wounds per turn if you are shooting into a 4+ save, and you have a very good chance of doing 0 damage to a 3+ save.

Even at close range a full volley would only do 3/4 wounds into a 4+ save, and 2 wounds into a 3+.

This means that 420 points of your army shooting from distance into a 4+ save would do 3-4 wounds.

If you are taking them as objective grabbers they are neither cheap nor survivable, with low saves and low bravery. 

If you are looking for cheap, flexible objective grabbers, ally in some Khinerai Heartrenders, who you can deploy off the board before deep striking them in. You could take 10 of these in 2 units for 160 points, freeing up 260 points after dropping the reavers, that's enough for an Akhelian King!

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

19 hours ago, Niishaw said:

Awesome I'll look at the Heartrenders  and then also see if the Allopex and the Leviadon's shooting will help....I just think a form of range might be advantageous. 

I'd be a little bit careful with this approach.

'He who defends everything defends nothing'

it can be a mistake to try and cover all the bases when you are making an army. For example, some shooting, some durability, a little magic, some melee. Because often you end up doing no particular function very well.

Deepkin shooting really isn't up to scratch, and Allopexes and Leviadons are generally seen as sub-optimal units. 

Again, this is all said with the proviso that you are looking for a hard or competitive list.

If you are just playing with your mates you should 100% just play what looks cool

 

But yeah, Deepkin don't excel at shooting. The Khinerai are basically useless for their actual damage output, I wouldn't expect more than a wound or two per game.

However their ability to deep strike, potentially on turn 3-4 to grab an objective, should not be underestimated.

 

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

While I would love Reavers to be cool, I can't see a role for them honestly, aside from grabbing objectives or soaking damage. 

Heartrenders grab objectives better and for less points, while Ishlaenn are considerably tankier and faster if you need a soak, albeit for 20 points more.

Regarding their output, from 9" range you'd expect 3-4 wounds against 4+ save, which is atrocious (15 hits > 7-8 wounds > 3-4 saves) and in practice you won't get more than one or two of these volleys a game, certainly not at full strength. 

Meanwhile your single shots at 18" you'd be lucky to sneak more than a wound through against a 4+ 

The most use they've been for me is forcing the enemy to shoot them rather than Thralls using allegiance ability, or using them to bodyblock a charge for a turn

 

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

1 hour ago, Aryann said:

The more I see lists like these the more often I ask myself if I ever want to go to a tournament. The build above is like going to a restaurant and ordering cooked potatoes instead of a normal dish. ?

Considering a tournament involves bringing your strongest list, you will see lots of spam. 

Competitive AoS/40k in the first instance is about list construction. Although it has pretensions to be a tactical game, I'd argue in general it is more about knowledge and preparation until you get to a decent skill level on the top tables.

Unless you aren't trying to win, in which case you can just play Allopexes or whatever

[Events UK: Fall of the Old World III: The Wrath of Sigmar]

Thanks John for organising a fab event! 

 

All my my opponents were dead nice and it was great trying out the Glottkin.

 

special shoutout to my two ironjaws opponents for some spectacularly casualty heavy games!