Knight Scáthach of Fimm
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Posts posted by Knight Scáthach of Fimm
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On 7/11/2019 at 8:18 AM, Eevika said:
In AoS I believe there are like 2 models from FW that are somewhat playable Mournghoul is good and Troggoth Hag actually pretty great. Everything else is awful just look at stuff like Fimir Warriors 140 points compared to Rockgut Troggoths also 140 points. They dont compare at all. Atleast my local GW allows me to play my Hag and love it. The model always get people to come and look at it
I don't think that's a fair comparison when Rockguts literally just came down 20 points a few days ago. You're complaining about a problem that was created in the space of a few days and expect it to be fixed in such; and they don't suddenly become awful just because a competitor got cheaper. Yes, Fimir ought to go back down to 120; as someone with 12 of both models I would appreciate them having a better use over Rockguts, as currently they are only superior at ranged defense and bravery.
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1 minute ago, 5kaven5lave said:
Fellwaters better in 3s then we reckon now?
Nothing has really changed for Fellwaters. Their use remains the same.
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Just now, ShaneHobbes said:
I have been running Rockguts in 3s and I think I prefer it that way. I'd rather have more units and not have to worry about babysitting for battleshock. Yeah I lose the automatic throws but I'm also getting more than double the attempts at a 50%.
You're babysitting for reroll 1s and we exhale command points with every breath so there's not really an issue there. Given the new reductions, Rockguts in 6s are pretty much an auto include. And the guaranteed hit means that, in my experience, the two units of 6 I use that usually fight side by side can remove backline heroes instantly with good chances. Sure you get more chances, but it's just that, a chance.
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Just now, Malakree said:
Point is that at 3s Fellwaters are better than Rockguts. Rockguts are just to unreliable in 3s.
Good thing I don't run Rockguts in 3s.
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1 minute ago, Malakree said:
Mathematically in terms of raw damage output fellwaters are superior against anything which doesn't have a 3+ save or a 4+ with full rerolls. Even then they break even at that point and that's without their shooting attack.
You then have the fact they benefit twice as much as rockguts from the troggherd and don't suck was in 3s.
Basically if you're taking 3 troggs you spend the extra 10 points for fellwaters, 3 rockguts is garbage. If you're going to 6 then you take rockguts.
So your comparision is 150 for 3 fellwaters or 280 for 6 rockguts. It's two different roles.
I value the 5++ more than the -1. The damage isn't necessarily the deciding factor. I appreciate Fellwaters for their ability to be more independent. Also Rockgut shooting, even though it does less, can be guaranteed damage with a 24" max range.
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1 minute ago, 5kaven5lave said:
Anyone changed their mind about the Batallion as it’s still 180? I’m considering dropping now everything else is cheaper.
I use it, and if you were like me and had 160 points shaved off then even more so.
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8 minutes ago, novakai said:
TBH I didn't find Rockgut to be worse then Felwater when they where the same price, it felt like while felwater where more reliable in melee, they where very susceptible to range attacks and MW while Rockguts can whiffs in melee sometimes, them hitting harder and being more durable kind of offset it. and while the Felwater vomit attack do more damage, the Rockguts one is longer range and does MW.
but yeah Rockgut at 140 is pretty bonkers now.
I always try and have Rockguts with reroll 1s (even easier now that it's also a basic command ability) and Moonface Mommet to guarantee it goes through. I had 4 Rockguts wipe 30 Longbeards in 2 combat phases with that combo.
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I reckon we're in a good spot now. I don't think it can be stated enough how much the change to Rockguts means. I don't understand why Fellwaters are more expensive, I find their only upside is the ability to be more independent which means they can cover my flanks better.
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Just now, ShaneHobbes said:
Trogherd is still stupid expensive though. Freeing up more points wont make me wanna take it over just bringing another unit of trogs
I mainly take it for the extra relic as I find Moonface Mommet to be incredibly important to outright prevent most armor saves, since every Rockgut swing is extremely valuable, as your opponent can and will roll those hot 6s. Also, the reduced drop number can be big on its own to dictate the first turn. I forget the +1 damage 98% of the time.
I'm going to invest my extra points in goblins to fix the numbers problem. -
Just now, Skoll said:
Oh , dont get me wrong. I love it, im just trying to figure out how GW figures bullgors,dragon ogres and skin wolves are priced properly.
If they just brought rockguts and fellwater down in price, and they were already arguably the best monstrous infantry.
I'd argue that comparing units in a vacuum is unfair; they ought to be contrasted in-allegiance, of which those units are in a whole grand alliance apart. I'm fairly certain you can do more with all those units, while Trolls get like 2-3 areas of synergy at best.
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Just now, Skoll said:
Rockguts at 140 is really mindboggling
My Fimir aren't coming out anytime soon as they're the same cost now. Hey, at 140 I'd argue that Rockguts are competitively priced. I have to say this FAQ has been pretty huge, as as I said before, it doesn't matter that the Troggboss didn't come down to 240 or so as we got points reductions where it really matters which is the main fighting force. I can't argue with having 160 points freed up, most armies would give their second in command for such a discount.
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Ok so I just had 160 points shaved off my list. Guess I need another unit of
Trollsgoblins and make a unit of 40 to handle the objective side. Hey, at least the price of the Troggherd is now offset a bit. -
I think Troggs are now very well priced when you consider them as an army; Rockguts I think didn't need it, but I'm not complaining. Dankboss could have gone to 260 but let's be real, the meat is in the Rockguts so his cost is evened out considerably.
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Wow I didn't think Rockguts needed to be cheaper. Goodnight my sweet Fimir. When taken as an army, the Troggboss' cost now evened out considerably.
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Capture points using the accumulative wounds characteristic of eligible models? Hoards would still be superior but it just means you need 13 dudes to beat a standard monster.
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Now that Witch Hunters are 40 points, they have some use in Freepeoples, provided you're exactly 40 points under which one of my lists is. If it's 50 then command point, but otherwise he has some use, if anything just to be a generic command ability user. The Hero keyword is always useful, 30 points is probably taken up by this keyword alone. I would rather have an extra hero on the board than an endless spell.
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9 minutes ago, Nevvermore said:
The Gyrocopter is one of the worst units in the game, you don’t see people crying about it because no one uses it.
Eyy now with the new merc company it might
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Dwarf Warriors likely went up by 10, not because they are used in Dispossessed, but because they get used in Order soup armies a lot. Why? They are efficient Battleline units, as they do not require support from the relevant heroes in order to hold objectives. They are basically the best part of a battleline tax, as soup lists often capitalize on the best of the Order units. In Dispossessed allegiance, they are overshadowed by Longbeards, but because Mixed Order is more relevant to the game right now, I am certain GW decided to increase their points; just like how Skinks were changed.
As it stands, my brother's Dispossessed list had 100 points knocked off it so it worked out well for him. This is including 2 cannons.
As for the Freeguild Griffon, a 20 point increase is nothing for such an efficient monster. He's easily worth 300, yet alone 280. My list freed up 50 points even with the increase to the Griffon as the cavalry and greatswords came down. It was 1990 so I can even make a unit of 20 greatswords 30 now.
Edit: 40 point Witch Hunter is actually relevant, at least to a Freeguild player. Before it was him or a command point, assuming you have that left. Now, if you have 40 left over I'd take it purely to be a beacon for command abilities. One of my lists adds up just right for this. He also fits into allies; the common ones being a Luminark and Battlemage being 360 combined.
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If Sneaky Snufflers worked on all, they would be sold out for the next 6 months. Unfortunately it's too late for that.
And yes, when balance adjustments to the game are made, it swings both ways. So if Troggboss only comes down to 280, but all the greater daemons go to 380+ then suddenly he doesn't sound too bad.
It's the comparison game again. It's usually the relatively cheap flying ballistic missile monsters that are a problem, and they make other units look bad by comparison because they do everything the meta and ruleset wants. Especially in the case of Ghoul Kings on Terrorgheist that literally have everything; its only weakness is that there isn't 2 of them in a unit...
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The closest things to regular trolls are Fimir, so they would have to drop lower to 120 for Trolls to come down to 140, but they are very good at 160 regardless.
I wouldn't say that GuO, Keepers or LoC are in the same points bracket if it came down to 260/280, they're all far more expensive than a Dankboss at this adjusted rate. There's a whole Fungoid/ Madcap or more to squeeze in there if that's the case, in post-GHB list, factoring in other changes.
I mean sure, if a Dankboss came down to 220 he'd be almost an auto include if you have at least 6 Rockguts in a standard list, hell if he has Loonskin I can see him replacing Skragrott in some instances. If it makes a Troggherd army rise in the competitive ladder then so much the better. Knowing GW, I highly doubt it. I think his myriad of small abilities and little leg-ups over other models will keep him no lower than 260. The problem with some of your examples is that they're all highly focused units while the Dankboss is a jack of many trades.
I think that if you want to make a Dankboss work for you (at 300), one needs to be conscious of the rest of the army. I see far too many people complain that the Dankboss is a points sink when they're simultaneously running a Hag and Troggherd; sometimes even Mollog in the worst of cases. I'd rather take a Madcap with Moonface Mommet and a Dankboss than a Hag.
And it's not just because of the sagginess.
So to conclude, he's not a stab in the foot.
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I'd argue that, while GW say pitched battle profiles are competitive intended, it's really just used so that we can have balanced games in the first place. Most people play with pitched battles, but most people are not tournament go'ers.
220 is pushing it imo; I'd rather see Troggherd go down and so Dankboss' value go up, than Dankboss go down by 80 points (I can't think of any cases where such a drop has happened, since it's not like he was written terribly in the first place). This is the more likely scenario in my mind, in order to get more worth out of a Dankboss. Battalion at 120, Dankboss at 260. Those are very much workable numbers. At 220 that would be extremely good, almost too good imo when you consider Loonskin. That's the range of many normal non-hero monsters, yet alone the stuff a Dankboss gets on top of that. And not only that, but at 220 you'd invalidate Mollog and normal Dankholds, as they won't be dropping all that much unless Gargants and normal trolls also go down, which is unlikely. If a Dankhold was 180, just by being a hero the boss will always be taken over it.
I think a safer bet, and one that is in line with what appears standard for a balance adjustment, a drop to 260-280 is more likely.
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1 minute ago, Pitloze said:
Do you guys things Troggs are good models to use contrast paints on?
One of the best.
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13 minutes ago, Malakree said:
What you're calling Broken is actually just strong, the stuff which can fight that Broken stuff is balanced, everything else is underpowered. A beastclaw raider looks at his stonehorn and goes "this is balanced" then looks at a Dragonlord and says "this is broken".
In your opinion maybe, but when you compare points cost for things like Wychelves and Flesh Eater combos to most other units, that is most certainly broken; they are aberrations by comparison. I'm not calling Bloodthirsters broken, I'm calling standard infantry that when buffed have a damage potential of 240 broken or dragons that can do a dance and a backflip before you can blink broken. People see the best something can be and want that, disregarding what they already have.
20 minutes ago, Malakree said:In a war fought by gods a single mortal is worthless.
Say that to Frodo
21 minutes ago, Malakree said:Saying "no, no I'm the one whose balanced the rest of you are just underpowered or overpowered" is a meaningless statement. You're either competitive or not. Right now the Troggboss is not a competitive pick because of his cost, that means he's underpowered, maybe not as bad as the Mawkrusha, but that's like looking at two turds and saying this one smells worse.
Don't make it about being competitive when I established we're talking about an army of Trolls. In normal AoS that is outside of the tournament scene, a Dankboss is a balanced unit. A Ghoul King on Terrorgheist in-allegiance is not. This is not AoS2 Competitive Dankold Troggoth Discussion so please don't keep bringing everything down to being competitive.
If you see everything through a meta lens then you're going to miss the way non-tournament players play and how they define things. Please remember that not everyone here is talking about a tournament scene. Most AoS players do not play competitively. You define units competitively, while most people just want to play a good balanced game and have fun, while feeling like what they field is satisfying to use.
I see a Dankboss as balanced because, much to people's complaints, he actually comes with a weakness, while also being able to perform to a decent standard (shocking I know). This, in my eyes, is a balanced unit. He may be tipping the scales at 300, but he's most certainly not a stab in the foot; that is what I'd define an underpowered unit as, something that harms you to take it over an alternative.
Again, if you want to talk competitive, then you're in the wrong thread to begin with because everything is stacked against a hyper-elite army in AoS. It's not the Dankboss' fault, it's the game system that favors massed hoards and flying beatsticks.
Furthermore, on the note of a buffbot: that's what almost all foot heroes do, and a Dankboss is a foot hero. Sure, he has the combined cost of a few of them, but who else can generate 1 extra command point a turn without rolling for most of the game, or have a high concentration of power on such a durable base? Mega boss example is pretty bad as we're going back to the damage route again which, as I will say again, is not what you should be playing him as; a Dankboss can and will hold his own if he has to. Most people would shriek at the thought of a 300 point backline hero who is a charge deterrent and a buff machine, and I say shriek away because that's what he is.
I would however like to see him come down 20-40 points; not because it benefits me precisely, but so people can finally stop bitching.
But let's be real.
The complaints will never stop.
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I doubt any Dankholds are going down by much due to the way GW calculate points. Dankboss has so many rules and advantages over other models, even though people seem to only see his damage. The lack of a degrading statline, the ability to take cover and look out sir are all things people seem to overlook and I imagine it's why he's so expensive. He's also on a 60mm base with a monster statline which may also be taken into account, his power per square inch is huge by contrast. He's the smallest biggest foot hero in the game and that counts for a lot.
d6 damage and 6" move though oh no! (even though you can literally fix these). He's a rock solid lynchpin for command abilities and cp generation, he's not meant to be a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist. In a book where most things are relatively cheap it balances itself out; taken in a vacuum he will always look overcosted. If you're taking Troggherd and a Hag don't be surprised when the army's looking a little light on the table. Or maybe he's just a balanced model in a game where *Insert flying monster* is king. Furthermore, in a game where magic is critical to many armies, the ability to ignore spells probably is a solid amount of his cost already.
But then people will always complain if it doesn't fly and hit like a ballistic missile. I mean people think the Mangler Boss is overcosted and it does that too!
Dankboss will be between 260 and 280 at best, any more is wishful thinking. Probably 280. Calling him a 220 model is ludicrous; just because, unlike many models, he hasn't got a hyper-specialized role doesn't automatically make him bad. Want to make him efficient? Just do what most people do and generate 50 points every turn with Loonskin. I find it hard to call that bad.
Normal Dankhold going anywhere close to 160 invalidates the already mostly invalid Gargant, although if we ignore him I'd say 180 is good. I can't imagine normal trolls going down at all as they are solid units in most regards. But they're not wychelves so they're automatically overcosted by some people's reckoning...
Or maybe it's because people like to compare the balanced units to the broken ones and call the former bad?
The Dankboss is fine, just don't overload on other expensive units. He's one of those models that on turns 4 and 5 you'll be glad you have because he's still alive and can work at full capacity regardless of what's going on. And if you lose such an easy to protect model then I can't help you.
You can make the point that he's not great for tournaments. Sure. But here we are in a thread talking about an army of Trolls, so we've already moved past that point.
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AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
I know the intention was not to, but in a tournament, I can't help but think 20 grots will come in handy since Trolls are too expensive to have camping home objectives. If anything, I'd say drop Mollog and get 20 grots to play it safe and Scrapskuttles to make your magic phase stronger.