Requizen
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Posts posted by Requizen
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5 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:
I know, I really like the model and him for his points he looks great, but I need to see what he can do in actual games as atm hes not worth it.
I just came up with this which is simple and boring but tbh could be solid:
Cathallar
Cathallar
3 x 20 Wardens
3 x 20 Sentinels
Legion
Twinstones
1990. 2 dropsWhile it can chip out MWs, I think this type of list would struggle to get through tougher units, with no Rend. Big Cows, Stoneguard, or MW casters feel needed to punch through things like 3+ save Monsters or Mortek Guard.
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Anyone played around with the Anvil of Apotheosis for Bonesplitterz yet?
One of my main issues with playing Bonesplitterz prior to this has been access to baseline hard hitting units that didn't require buffs, outside Big Stabbas. This was was somewhat alleviated in the new book with the inclusion of the Rogue Idol into Bonesplitterz, which worked out great.
But now, you can make a pretty solid beatstick custom Hero if events allow it, and I think a non-zero amount will. I'm thinking even a Monster Hero alongside a Rogue Idol might be pretty terrifying - there's plenty of solid support spells in our Lore, and that Hero would get Warpaint, Monster Hunter, and Tireless Trackers, making it a great aggressive piece on the board. One could splurge and make it Ethereal with a good save, which would give us a nice independent unit that can swing around and fight things.
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3 minutes ago, Elves are the best said:
Is it worth bringing Avalenor in a great nation other than Ymetrica even though he doesnt get the abilites for that nation ?
Would a normal spirit of the mountain be better for example syar ?
Avalenor is better in every way, other than the Rend of the weapon and being 20 points more expensive. I'd only ever run the base Spirit if I was out of Leader slots or desperately needed those 20 points, personally.
That might change down the line when points shift, but those are my thoughts currently.
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Pst, there are online solutions to playing games if you're really itching for a fix.
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4 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:
So these lists seem to highlight the SCE dilemma, expressed in two scenarios: Shifting Objectives and Better Part of Valour.
One gives bonus points to battleline units within 6” of an objective (restricting deep strikes if you want to take advantage of it), and the other requires battleline to destroy other battleline. In melee.
And this is the rub with Stormcast in GHB2020. Total Commitment removes a whole allegiance ability. Two battleplans punish armies with bad battleline. 3 reward armies with good (>5 wound, tanky, mobile) leaders, 1 with good monsters. If you have units that fit more than one of those categories (eg battleline monsters, or monster heroes) then all the better.
This means 3/12 battleplans, 25%, are straight up awful for SCE, and 4 more present serious problems. That’s over half which are already an upwards struggle, not counting any other tough scenarios.
Ive really no idea how to go about building a good list in this meta. Everything that isn’t Leader/Battleline/Monster feels like dead weight due to scenario scoring, and it’s not like non-L/B/M units in the SCE book overperform to make up the difference.
I wonder if lists need to stick to those three unit types (eg battleline Sequitor blobs supported by Stardrakes I guess?), or go all in on other units that seek to overwhelm instead (which I suppose is just the Longstrike build these days).
edit: FYI as a comparison, my OBR list is Katakros, Liege Kavalos, Mortek Guard, KDR, Crawler, Harvester. Every single unit in that list scores bonus VPs or can seriously contest ABPoV. How is SCE meant to compete with that on just scoring, let alone when it comes to actually fighting?
It's not much change from GHB2019 honestly. In pretty much every mission, the Stormcast strategy has been "cripple or table the opponent by the end of the game, or get outscored and lose". The only time that hasn't been true was during times where we were spamming bodies during Warrior Brotherhood, Vanguard Wing, and early Gav Bomb with mass Sequitors.
Stardrake builds, Aetherstrike, Anvilstrike, Skyborne, Ballistas with Dracolines - all of these have relied on doing terrible damage before even thinking about playing the objective game in most missions. I think that will continue to be the norm for Stormcast until we get something to mitigate it in a new Battletome.
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7 hours ago, Raffonerd said:
Yeah, the problem with Teclis is:
Ok, great spells but it needs to start first and use his twice cast to become Ethereal and have FNP 5+. So, more or less he becomes useless in order to survive.
Alarith is good only if you pick Ymetrica. Which means that, if you pick Alarith, ignore rend -2 is so benefical that you can't avoid to get it.
So, in the end you go for:
Ymetrica + knights maybe (some dispells and 1 cathalan for bravery)
Full vanari with a lot of sentinels. (maybe 2 drop high risk teclis or 3 drops with riders).
I somewhat agree with Teclis, but he seems so matchup dependent it's crazy. Against mainly melee lists or short range shooting, he's probably going to be insane. If the opponent can't get to him, he's going to do whatever he wants, and the things he does, are insane. If the opponent only has minimal spellcasting (especially no bonuses to unbind or auto-unbinds), you can easily cruise the 4x auto-10 casts and get a lot of support off. If he's not going to be in danger, you don't need Ethereal either. If he's not spending spells on Ethereal and can automatically cast Protection + 3 other good spells, he's a powerhouse and probably can carry the game by himself.
But, in matchups with a lot of strong magic on the other side, or strong long range shooting, he's a 660 point liability. Stormcast Longstrikes in the right build can remove him top of turn 1 fairly reliably. OBR Catapults can nuke him with somewhat lucky dice. Nagash will out-Wizard him and is stronger in melee to boot.
I think the question will be, is he strong enough in the good matchups to make up for the bad ones? And can you build a list that still competes if he eats 16 wounds in turn one and dies?
The closest comparison for him is Nagash or Alarielle (or Archaon, but that guy sucks). Nagash is way more durable, and his factions get to rez units to play the attrition game. Alairelle comes with line of sight blocking terrain, heals a bunch, and has some summoning in her army. The support pieces for Teclis are either Rend ignoring Alarith or -1 hit Vanari, both of which are good bonuses, but potentially not in the same way to support a 600+ point hero.
I want to try out a Teclis + Vanari list, as I think that's likely the most viable way to run him, but I'm feeling that "Vanari warhost" or Alarith Temple will likely be more viable in the long run.
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29 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:
Some lists will have the ability to absorb the Longstrikes' shooting, or some lists could potentially do enough damage to them if they win priority for R2; but I suspect a # of lists will be hard pressed to absorb the shooting, especially if you double them. I tried it out once on TTS last week and was rather stunned at its damage output, again especially if you double someone.
You'll usually have the choice who goes first. If your opponent can meaningfully hurt the Longstrikes R1, then you'll deploy them off board (assuming Total Commitment isn't being played, which should never be played, especially at a tournament), and give them first turn. If they can't threaten the Longstrikes R1 (i.e. they're a melee-oriented army), and you have reliable firing lines, then you can deploy them on board, and then give your opponent top of R1.
A lot of the time, you'll have to deploy them off board, since quite a few armies can do poke damage, and you may need the drop-in positioning flexibility.
In that scenario, bottom of R1, you're looking at up to:
- 2 Venator's with Star-fated Arrow, one with Luckstone
- 18 shots from Longstrikes, likely RR 1's to hit
- 48 shots from Vanguard Hunters
- 9 Bolstorm Pistol + 6 Javelin shots from Palladors
A # of armies can weather that firepower...but if you double someone, and you do it again, this time with up to 36 shots from the Longstrikes...that's where it can get crazy. If you don't double someone, though, and you haven't removed most or all of their ranged damage, or managed to position in such a way that you can mitigate their reach relative to your Longstrikes, then yeah...you could be in trouble.
Basically this. Not only is the shooting and mobility good, but ability to determine turn order (almost always 2nd unless they deploy where you can gib a unit T1) is insane for a heavy shooting list. One of the huge downsides to Anvilstrike was the number of drops, which is why it went more and more defensive over time.
You'll find lists that will laugh at your shooting entirely, but rarely 2 in a single event and almost never 3. It is a bit of a mission dependent list, true, but that was the same for Anvilstrike.
I think VAC can be a podium list if you get lucky draws. If not, it's still a positive record weekend list imo. But that's honestly where the balance should be, I think - I'd be far more bored playing an army that was favored for a 5-0 and made unfun games for my opponent.
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4 hours ago, Freejack02 said:
What SCE lists do you see pushing for 4-1? I've been away from the game for a while, and haven't touched my Stormcast lately.
During the 2018/2019 season, I went 5-0 or 4-1 with Anvilstrike in all but one event I went to. The list is still good, though there are more things that can compete at the slow ranged game, which is where it can get dicey for us.
Vanguard Aux will likely be a 4-1 list in the hands of a good player. I can see Sequitor blobs coming back in vogue with their point drops. Skyborne went down across the board, and has reasonable matchups against some armies. I'm sure there's more out there to be reconsidered as well.
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Man this thread is super salty. I get that we're no longer the top dogs but you'd think GW was burning our books on camera by the reactions here.
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Been thinking more about the Vanguard Chamber 1 drop list. I initially wrote it off due to relative weakness of Vanguard units, but the more I muse on it, the better I think it is - though I think Anvilstrike is overall stronger.
Vanguard Chamber brings overall better shooting to the table. After all, your Longstrikes are getting double shots per turn without CP usage, and can go quad with Anvils CA. That's quite the fusillade. Plus, incidental shooting from Palladors and Hunters to chip off support units, and a Luckstone Venator for sniping.
Additionally, the ability to split your Longstrikes around the table instead of being one unit that you have to castle around provides a lot of tactical opportunity. Without the Evo unit providing counter-charge threat, the list will be more encouraged to play with finesse, positioning wide and retreating/sacrificing where needed. It's also more opportunity to spread birds around, which I love doing.
One drop control of turn order is no joke either. Being able to control getting the first double, especially with an army that can play the positional game, is really damning to some enemies. You can have up to 7 units off the table, which allows you to really mess with your opponent with threat spread.
Now obviously, the main issue is lack of overall melee power (mostly in the Aquilor and Azyros Heroes) and weakness to other mobile shooting that can pick off our small units. I think the viability will lie heavily on the rest of the meta and how much we can expect our Longstrike units to survive.
I won't get a chance to play it in person anytime soon, but I do think it'll be at least mid-tier.
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42 minutes ago, hurben said:
Which clan do you play? What’s your list focused on?
I play bones’ but I want to try BW why a Megaboss on MK to see how powerful it is.
Icebonez, 30 Arrows, Brutal Rukk with 2x30 Spears, Rogue Idol. Surprisingly fast, reasonable killing power, and 180 chump wounds is just hard to shift off of objectives.
I want to try Big Waaagh, but losing Warpaint against alpha strikes, the pre-game move, and monster hunting feels like a steep price. Trading early game power for mid/late game power, not sure how much I like it personally.
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Everyone seems to be favoring Big Waaagh, but I'm 12-2-1 across 3 tournaments with just straight up Bonesplitterz at the moment. I might try BW at some point, but I don't have any Ironjawz units and I can't see myself playing just Bonesplitterz in it without something like a Mawkrusha or some Pigs to make use of the combination.
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6 minutes ago, jhamslam said:
I wouldnt call it popular. I expected to see more of it at LVO, i was the only one. People dont like playing SCE , those that do still go for a mix sequitors, evos, ballistas, or like 6 longstrikes + 6 hurricanes or something
Well, it's gotten quite popular in my area haha. I think between the group here that play it, it's at least well known enough to be planned for. I still think it's a fun list!
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On 2/7/2020 at 8:06 AM, PJetski said:
Glad to hear it
I should give props to @Requizen since we worked on the list for a long time on this forum. His innovation of transitioning from Aetherstrike into 2.0 by bringing a block of Evocators was a major break-through.
And now that I'm playing Bonesplitterz for a while, I'm kicking myself for helping popularize it haha, I really don't want to see my old list across the table from me
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16 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:
I think that current list is probably better in Big Waagh than any BS allegiance. -1 Rend on 6's is nice, but hitting on 3s & 3s is better. The biggest thing you lose is the pregame move. I honestly think most lists with 30 stikka boys are better in Big Waagggh. I know it's a little sad but it's still a great army.
Idol rerolling 2's to hit and woudning on 2's isn't bad either
I've given it some thought. I'm a bit worried about missing Paint save at the start of the game, especially if they do some alpha strike stuff on top of one, but you get to Laugh At Em with the CA right off the bat, as long as they don't pop any Heroes before you can use it. I might try it this weekend.
Edit: Just remembered that you would miss out on Monster Hunters with Big Waaagh. While it's not a game breaker, having those chip MWs when charging a monster with Savage Orruks is a big deal, potentially more impactful than just getting better hits (especially if they don't have a MW save like Alarielle, Thundertusks, or Chimeras). Worth thinking about.
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6 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:
Seems quite strong, how did you manage the petrifex matchup with so little rend? That's been my concern with going more bonesplitter heavy. I tend to focus on ironjaw units in my Big Waagh army specifically because I worry about going heavy into bonesplitter and having no answer to petrifex except fist of gork.
The Nagash version of the list is actually quite light on bodies, since the big guy is so expensive. I played the objective game, bogged down one side of the board in Boyz while the Arrows and Idol cleaned up the other side handily. The Spears didn't do basically any damage, but 30-60 Boyz will outnumber 20 Mortek basically whenever. I don't think I win that game in Hero missions like Three Places of Power, Nagash just holds one and Magic-kills the other Heroes. It'd be difficult in Starstrike and Knife as well, but that's like any matchup honestly.
I think the Katakros OBR lists are much stronger and I'd struggle more against them, but that's why I'm considering getting more good rend in. Trolls, Big Stabbas, another Idol, or a Mawkrusha (though that one would require switching to Big Waaagh allegiance).
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On 1/2/2020 at 8:40 AM, Requizen said:
Happy new year! I've committed to painting and playing this at an event at the end of the month - engage crazy hobby time:
Clan: Icebone
Wurrgog Prophet - General, Master of the Weird, Brutal Beast Spirits
Maniak Weirdnob - Breath of Gorkamorka, Mork's Boney Bitz
Wardokk - Kunnin Beast Spirits
Savage Big Boss - Kattanak PeltSavage Orruks x30 - Spears
Savage Orruks x30 - Spears
Savage Orruk Arrowboyz x30Rogue Idol
Balewind Vortex
Brutal Rukk (2x Boyz and Boss)
2000/2000
The amount of units is a lot smaller than I'm used to (usually play MSU Stormcast), but it's a lot of bodies. 6 drops is nice too, won't beat everything but will win a lot of deployments. I'm not sure how hyper-competitive it is (or honestly if Bonesplitterz actually have a hyper-competitive build), but it should be fairly strong and fun.
Went 4-1 with this list this weekend. Could have won the lost game if I had make a couple different decisions (and if my dice weren't absolute trash). Beat Khorne (Brass Stampede), BCR (3x Stonehorn), Living City (Wood Aelves + Alarielle and Durthu), and OBR (Petrifex + Nagash). Lost to Slaves (Mortal Despoilers).
Overall a great weekend and I now feel much more confident with the army. Thoughts for list updates:
- I do think I want to add some more good Rend damage. Spear weight of dice is great until you hit something with 3+ armor or similar, and then they just bounce off even with exploding hits. However, that's really only another Idol or some Big Stabbas unless I start hitting Allies.
- Brutal Rukk feels so impactful for mobility, that even if I go to 30 + 10 Spears instead of 30 + 30, I might want to keep it for the speed.
- Rogue Idol is really, really solid. I've had him go off by himself and do work, kept him back as a buffing countercharge, and sometimes just put him as the primary deterrent threat that people play around. He's not quite a Stonehorn or VLoZD, but he's about as good as we get for the points.
- Arrowboyz honestly didn't wow me, but I think I didn't use them very effectively. People mainly avoided their range, and it was hard to get them all into shooting range at the same time. Even when they do, unless you're stacking buffs they tend to bounce off with their Rend0. I feel like I want some ranged threat in the list, but there were not a lot of times I really felt they were truly threatening.
- I'm fairly torn on Icebone. I'm not making use of the CA obviously, but the Rend is super handy... when it goes off. Is it better than a different artifact for Clan-less? Is it better than preventing Retreats for Bonegrinz? I'm not sure, honestly.
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On 1/22/2020 at 4:54 PM, Malakree said:
If you take a rogue idol you DEFINITELY want a warchanter, it has both Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz keywords you can put the +1 damage on it and it can benefit from the 3d6 charge.
I honestly hadn't thought of that, a super good option. My only issue is that once the Idol boogies down the table, the Warchanter is basically doing nothing if the rest of the force is Bonesplitterz only. If you're Big Waaagh, he's still generating points I guess, and can block reserve stuff, but still not really super impactful.
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1 hour ago, Malakree said:
Personally I've found I can reliably hit it turn 2. Most of my builds are 2warchanters+wurrgog which is an innate 5 on it's own, add in the command point generation and even as Ironjawz I'm getting 9+d6 a turn just because.
As bonesplitterz I suspect your hero generation will be lower because wurrgogs/wardokks are only worth 1 but the sheer number of extra bodies you put on the board should make the command point generate that much more. For 600 points you can get 60 Savage Orruks which is 6 Waaagh! points on it's own from the CP.
This is all ignoring the points gained from charging and being in combat with units of 10+/heroes, again something which is easier for Bonesplitterz because your units are just innately bigger.
1 hour ago, Caffran101 said:If anything I would say that generation is probably a bit too quick and easy.
My army is almost always fully buffed by turn 2. And most of the time using the extra attack Command is usually not worth the risk of losing your buffs. So you spend almost 4 turns with everything at +1/+1 which is crazy strong. (essentially its every model in the army sipping on old school battlebrew!)
turn 1 you can reliably get off the "defensive" buffs. which help you manoeuvre about and survive some turn 1 stuff.
Good to note. I'm curious to try something like the following:
Megaboss on Mawkrusha - General, Ironclad, Ignax's Scales, Mean 'Un
Wurrgog Prophet - Breath of Gorkamorka
Wardokk - Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk - Kunnin Beast SpiritsArrowboyz x30
Savage Orruks x30
Savage Orruks x30
Savage Boarboyz x5
Savage Boarboyz x52000/2000
Effectively just trying to drown and outflank in bodies while the Mawkrusha does his thing. Though I'm not sure if it's worth losing all the Bonesplitterz tools just to get the big punchy boi.
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So I'm playing Bonesplitterz recently, but I've been thinking of trying them out as a Big Waaagh (perhaps with a Mawkrusha addition, but still mostly Bonesplitterz). My hesitation comes from the relatively slow early game vs fast enemy armies - having Tireless Trackers for Turn 0 and Warpaint save right off the bat feels quite nice, and Big Waaagh seems to need a bit of Waaagh Point ramp up to get strong.
How have you guys found this in action? Do you think it takes a while to get to a "scary" amount of WPoints, or do you find that Turn 1 is fine as long as you build and deploy for it? I know how fast Slaanesh, Ironjawz, Khorne, and even Stormcast can get across the table, not to mention the amount of shooting that can hit you Turn 1 and potentially snipe a General to slow down the point generation.
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1 hour ago, Beliman said:
How good a double SCE comet could be in a KO list?
Start at 31" of any other enemy mage. Use bottle to throw the comet. Do damage with it. Unbind it with the navigator. After that, use your alied incantor to summon it again and do damage again.
Bit crazy but maybe could be fun.
Dispelling endless spells only happens at the start of the Hero Phase.
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9 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:
Well possibly if you can move across a model, which is not all that easy with such a huge base and relatively low movement (We are seeing many other big models move 15-18"). So in the move phase it needs to move across a model and still end up 3" away from the unit, it needs to be in a line too, you can't just say it makes a U-turn over it.
On the charge it also needs to cross something, again that huge base needs to pass over something. I guess if you are going all RAW it could fx against another behemoth, clip the base edge with the 3" pile in, I'm not sure everyone would say that it was "moved across" though. I am sure trying to min max this will frustrate at least 1 player at the table, but if anyone got some more clear tips and rules etc for this, I would love to hear it.
There's nothing saying it has to be in a line. If you're any closer than 9" (without Heraldor) you can move 8.99" over then, back 3.1", land, charge more than 3" back and over, and technically there's nothing preventing you from going back and forth over a model with your pile in as far as I know, as long as it finishes closer than it started. Potentially 3d3MW from just moves.
That said, I don't know if this type of list really as the muster to make it off middle tables. Chip MW damage used to be super good, but now people are building around massive MW damage and summoning. It sounds like it'll have pretty poor games against good horde armies, who don't care about taking a handful of MWs and will just outscore.
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3 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:
I was honestly surprised they raised the values when they did. Seemed like really bad timing. SCE wasn't exactly dominating at the time. And they were releasing comparative nonsense in the new books.
It's due to production and printing schedule. Those books are written many months before they hit the printer, so it's not like they can pivot and fix values as event results make imbalances known.
GW doesn't want to go to constantly-updated digital points because they're afraid it'll put a burden on the average player to keep up (tournament players being the minority in their minds, whether true or not). For better or worse, the point values are going to be ~6 months behind the current meta for the forseeable future.
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16 hours ago, PJetski said:
So with the recent FAQ clarifying Longstrike range in the hero phase, I wanted to re-open the discussion we had a long time ago about 9x Longstrikes vs 20x Judicators in Anvilstrike.
Longstrikes Pros:
- Rend-2 and mortal wounds make focused fire more reliable
- ~9% more damage on average vs 4+, ~25% more damage vs 3+
- Aetherwing control
- Longer stationary range, dont have to commit to any engagements
- Mortal Wounds against enemies that charge you?
- Smaller footprint than 20 Juds
Judicator Pros:
- Battleline, effectively saving you 100 points on Liberator tax
- Way more wounds, 40 instead of 18. Special weapons are the last to be removed.
- Fairly similar damage, but it can spike way higher because of Shockbolt bows
- Can take anti-horde Thunderbolt Crossbows instead of Shockbolt bows (though they are only 18" range)
- Roughly the same damage vs 5+ saves, ~20% more damage against 6+ saves
The biggest downside I can see is that Judicators cant control aetherwings, you would have to bring some Hurricanes if you want them... but maybe we dont need aetherwings... maybe we can run a unit of 6x Desolators to act as an anvil instead?
Can you make Anvilstrike work like this:
Incantor
Azyros
Heraldor
Relictor
Castellant
2x5 Liberators
1x20 Judicators
1x6 Desolator
2000/2000This list is much stronger against shooting and mortal wounds, but I'm worried that without the Aetherwings we won't be able to stop mega fast double tap fight first armies. Furthermore, I like having those units of Aetherwings and Liberators for objective control.
What do you think?
I like the idea, but you either need Aetherwings or a true screen unit. Too many things can walk across the board and charge on turn 1 no problem. Especially with how high drop this army is, the chances of getting ripped to shreds by a KoS or Stonehorn or Eindrinrigger or whatever charge before they shoot is too high. I saw a marked increase in my win % when I switched from 1 unit of Aetherwings to 3 units - they're that good.
Honestly it's made me consider that perhaps it's not even the shooting that's strong, but the Birds themselves. Vanguard Justicar can help with drops while still bringing the Birds and shooting, even outside of Anvils multishot. Charge denial is so insanely powerful in a game so reliant on melee damage and mobility in general. Turning off Charges is effectively reducing movement for many units, when they're trying to charge onto an objective or into a better position.
34 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:If you read back a few pages in this very thread you will probably be able to answer that question for yourself lol
If you can't be bothered the answers are:
1) No2) Shootcast ie take a max-sized missile unit like longstrikes and use the CA of Anvil Strike to doubleshoot them (there are a number of good list ideas scattered throughout here but I can't imagine any of them will win you a tournament - SCE seem to be one of the weakest books in the game right now.)
If being competitive is what matters to you there are many better choices.
Shootcast is competitive. I think the issue is that it's a bit boring and hasn't changed much since 2017 when Aetherstrike Force was first worked on. Various Shootcast lists can easily go 4-1 at an event or even 5-0 depending on draws, and is one of the things many factions fear facing in the meta. I'm getting bored of it since I played Aetherstrike into Anvilstrike for over 2 years and the other 80% of the book is non-competitive. Reasonable external balance, low internal balance.
At this point they should just revert Sequitors, Evocators, Gavriel, Ballistas, and the Castellant to previous values. The Gav Bomb list isn't even that scary compared to Slaanesh, FEC, or Skaven.
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Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion
in Lumineth Realm-Lords
Posted
I'm curious about double Monster lists for these guys. Maybe something like:
Ymetrica
Avalenor
Stonemage
Cathallar
30 Wardens
20 Sentinels
10 Sentinels
10 Stoneguard
Spirit of the Mountain
Twinstones
1980/2000
Maybe the Stoneguard are unnecessary with double cows, but it's a first pass. Might try to get a TTS game in.