vaector
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Posts posted by vaector
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I also just finished watching Vincy V's Skaven tome overview from yesterday's Warhammer Weekly and they mention how you can stack Death Frenzy and Dreaded Death Frenzy spells on a single unit and it got me thinking, how does coherency work with that? I understand that "fighting" means "pile in then attack" but if it is only for models that died how do you pile in those models without breaking coherency with the rest of the unit? Or are you supposed to just pile in at most the likely fractions of an inch that you can make while still maintaining coherency?
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1 hour ago, Bregor said:
Yeah, the app seems to be letting you take a spell on him for some reason. Don't know why.
I can't imagine you wouldn't be able to take a spell on him from the Lore of Ruin. The fact that the spell lore is missing the provision for allowing unique heroes to take it that all of the other 3rd edition books do has to be an oversight that will get patched in the FAQ. But the universal spell lore has been specifically banned for unique units so it makes less sense why anybody would be taking that unless it's just a placeholder or something.
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I've seen several people here including Thanquol with the Flaming Weapon spell within the last week or so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since he is unique, doesn't that mean he is unable to take any spells from the Universal Spell Lore?
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5 minutes ago, DocKeule said:
the other hand the lady can only summon one 95 point unit of Dryads and costs like 90 points more that the bell.
That's fair. I think those point values are enough that you can remove the point difference and the summoning ability and say "how does her scroll compare with the bell now?"
Better save, but less wounds. Doesn't require 10 bodies nearby to let her move, Higher bravery. Much better attack profile that is at 3" range so can fight behind ranks plus her ranged attack. 2 caster, though without a casting bonus on warscroll. She is a bonus general. Projects wildwood effect, Can do that +1/-1 to hit bubble in combat, and has a WW12" 5+ ward bubble casted on a 7.
Compare all of that to +5 wounds, 5+ ward, a degrading cast bonus, peal of doom, and possibility to summon a verminlord.
I don't really know exactly how all of that shakes out but I suspect she'd edge out the bell in battlefield contribution. Though in 1 on 1 she likely is only going to do the kind of damage to the bell that guarantees a verminlord is being dropped on her head next turn.
So who knows! I still love the new bell. I just think the Lady of Vines benefits from the "new model, please buy" bonuses like the new boat-ghost for Nighthaunt who is somehow only 175pts. (Nighthaunt players have got to be ready for that price to go up when the new model smell wears away!)
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26 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Personally I love randomness, the problem I’m facing with the screaming bell is more its reason for being played and well the reward system that should come with a risk.
I love the fact thar we can summon a verminlord, while doing so loosing on the peal of doom, and the chance of killing itself.
the prblem I’m facing is basically the peal of doom.
certainly the risk is higher for the screaming bell to loose wounds, yet the rewards is more or lessly said not there for doing so.
You’ll mostly be giving out 1-d6 mortal wounds to a single unit within 13 not really something I’d consider great.
so basically I’ll happily spend that ability for a verminlord.
something I’m also missing is the fact that it was able to give bs immunity.
if they’d put that back and you could loose that ability when summoning the verminlord, now that is what I’d call a risk for a reward.
currently summoning a verminlord is only something you can gain, while not loosing anything.
in my oppinion that is a poor taste,
of course I’m mosty talking here froma raw warscroll perspective.
since we don’t know how artefacts allegaince ability and so on will effect the skaven range,
not much else can be said
I agree, the randomness is what makes skaven fun. I hope we get more stuff where there's a relatively small chance of failure, mostly doing fine, then small chance of greatness. Unlike the doomwheel's reroll movement ability that is most likely going to end up with your opponent controlling the model's movement.
I don't know what you mean when you say summoning the verminlord means you don't lose anything. Peal of doom isn't insanely powerful but I think it can really add up. Options for 1 and 2 do suck. but 3-6 are definitely nice IMO. -1 to hit rolls in a 13" bubble is pretty strong in a save stacking meta (though -1 to wound would have been better), 1/3 chance of not being able to issue a command to a nearby unit can totally mess up somebody's plan (Lady O is getting this and we're already hearing from early adopters that it's really messed with people), d6 impact mortals isn't crazy but it's not nothing. and aoe d3 mortals (on a 4+) can be pretty decent if placed right. Plus you lose the ability to cast Cracks Call which, I've personally never had much luck with but that's still another thing you're throwing away either a verminlord is summoned or not.
That said, after seeing the warscroll for the Lady of Vines, I'm a little less enthused about the bell scroll. Not because I don't like the bell more so because the Lady of Vines scroll is just overtuned in comparison (5+ ward bubble for 1cp?).
But in the end you're right, without the battle traits and enhancements speculating won't really get us much farther. Nighthaunt is damn near entirely defined by their battle traits. I think Skaven will be a bit more flavorful on their scrolls and a little less defined by the battle traits but I imagine the battle traits will still the main decider in all of this.
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2 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
That is true but why try and protect the bell, when it’s purpose is to take as many wounds possible so it can summon that verminlord that will do hopefully a better job then the grey seer
edit: at this point you might as well try and cast warplightning vortex onto himself so he can suffer wounds.
basically the screaming bell is a slaanesh unit that wants to be tortured as badly as any living being needs water
That's one way to look at it and maybe that's the correct one. However, I look at it more as the point of the unit isn't to get the verminlord out otherwise, yeah just take the verminlord instead. Instead I look at it as a good target for a tanky general that can project power through spells that it can now reliably cast with the +2 and who can project peals out who isn't somebody you need to hold back to keep safe because if you swing at him you better kill him or a demon is about to get dropped on your face. To me the verminlord is almost a psychological deterrent that allows the bell to do the rest of the stuff it wants to do rather than just die asap.
This is of course assuming you're not going up against an enemy that can drop him in 1 turn in which case, yeah play a bit more defensive. But who knows how all of this will change when the battle traits are here. All I know is that in my casual/narrative circle, nobody was scared of me rolling a 12 on 2d6 but people are now more afraid of the proposition of even touching the bell.
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4 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
It got worse.
You’re literally just taking it for the summon.
and unless verminlords are going to cost a hell lot more then right now, I see no reason not ever taking a verminlord over a screaming bell.
the screaming bell at least from its raw state just is nothing.
it needs to be pushed by other units.
it has zero aura abilities that helps you own units, his peal of doom is just a damage dealing thing, that has a good chance of not working.
i’d actually prefer the older warscroll.
at least there it has a purpose to exist
I've never played any tournaments so I can't speak from any sort of competative mindset but I was actually really liking the new bell (minus losing a few things like battleshock and still needing to be pushed around for no good reason). The fact that the more damage you take on this fairly defensibly unit, the more likely your summon goes off means enemies probably won't want to throw chip damage at it. They either take it off in one go or don't touch it because if they do that extra verminlord is likely coming out. between that and the stormvermin body guard you can put on it, the bell can be a decent platform that can survive a while to project spells and get some of the peal of doom effects off even if they are at a much smaller range.
Maybe that isn't enough to save it but I quite like the fact that it has that implied "if you are going to shoot the king you better make sure you kill him" effect.
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35 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:
Looks like I’ll be going back to running the bell. Since 3.0 I’ve opted to take a Warpgnaw Verminlord over the bell and run minimum battleline, now I can have both 😂 And the lack of battleshock bubble hasn’t really bothered me when I normally have spare CP. Run the bell as general with cunning trait to harvest extra CP and hope we’ve still got the Warpseer for battleshock 🤞
That's assuming the warpseer battleshock immunity doesn't get stripped like the bell did or that the cunning command trait still exists. we'll have a month or so where we can exploit all of that between when the box comes out with updated warscrolls and when the book comes out, but after that who knows what kind of battleshock/CP options we'll have. It looks like battleshock immunity is being stripped from a lot of units this edition. We'll see!
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19 minutes ago, Chase said:
Now patiently waiting for the Deathmaster leak
Same! Or better yet, the Nighthaunt treatment and get the whole book.
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16 minutes ago, angrycontra said:
I think the chanting bonus there is just gw using the same base profile for both furnace and screaming bell, I doubt this thing can become priest.
And I for one am happy that this thing no longer gives bshock immunity. Gameplay be damned, skaven should not be the "brave" army. Also removal of bshock immunity should not come as surprise, GW has removed many bshock immunity abilities from basically all 3rd edition tomes they've released (I'm even willing to bet that ossiarch bonereapers will no longer have that ability in their future btome).
Alter of the Horned Rat means it gains the PRIEST keyword. That makes it a priest the same way gaining the WIZARD keyword allows a unit to cast spells.
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1 minute ago, Chase said:
My first thought was curse, followed by rattling cannons. That would be pretty disgusting
Curse would certainly be ideal but since that's not one of the two default prayers you have to have a way of taking it as an enhancement to begin with. Unless there's a battle trait that allows that to happen I don't see how we'd be able to have access to it. Maybe GW will rule that upon gaining the Priest keyword mid-battle you are able to elect a prayer enhancement for them but I don't know if there has been any precedent for that kind of thing.
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3 minutes ago, elescapo said:
So many changes.
- Lost 1 spellcast, but gained a casting bonus.
- No more Battleshock immunity.
- Verminlord summoning is actually likely (if wounded enough), but at the cost of the bell.
- Range of the bell effect doesn't shrink, but it's much shorter by default.
- Cracks Call range reduced by 5".
- Bell table on a 1D6 instead of 2D6 means it will be more swingy. Magical backlash only affects the bell now, but the likelihood has gone from 2.8% to 16.7% per turn. There will be a lot of magical backlashing going on. At least you can choose not to ring the bell at all, now.
- Option to switch to Priest means we might get a proper prayer table, although it would specifically need to allow Grey Seers to take a prayer, because they are a Wizard by default.
I like the casting bonus. I'm not sure I like the changes to the bell.
Definitely lots of interesting things to consider. I'm hoping we'll get some battleshock immunity in the battle traits in some form to compensate. I'm also really not sure how I feel about the Peal of Doom changes. The options seem to be streamlined and all useful but the increased backlash chance and halved range does really suck.
I was really hoping the Pushed into Battle rule would be reworked in some way. With points going up and up and up it makes it makes the value of committing 10+ bodies to move the bell continually more challenging.
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I'm curious how the whole having the Priest keyword thing works. I'm guessing the only prayers we'll have access to are Bless and Smite. Not sure how useful those are but it's certainly a nice trick to have up our sleeves I guess.
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Just saw this posted on Reddit a few minutes ago.
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9 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
That is true, although I have a feeling that most skavenplayers in here are probably more interested in the basic rule changes in the tome.
Agreed. I for one don't want to consider a seasonal ruleset from the GHB as a possible balancing lever for a tome that will last a few years at least.
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12 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Well theoretically we have.
they would just have to do exactly the thing they did with the steam tank commander
the doomwheel comes with 2 head options for the pilot, and from the lore a warlock piloting a dommwheel is just a common thing.😉
I was actually thinking of the take commander right after you mentioned that! 😄
I totally forgot about the 2 head options. It would be such an easy addition for them to make!
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6 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
I definitely agree.
my disappointment I’ve been expressing was more meant towards the lack of interest from gw to even at least update more then a single hero, rather then having a book written wrongly.
the first skaven book in aos (Excluding clan pestilence) was pretty fun.
the risk/ reward system was included again, and with maybe the exception of having done a bad job at the only battleline stuff when you are playing this clan only, the book was actually pretty great.
And after such a long time, they could only improve the gameplay.
so here I am hoping we are getting a Doomwheel hero mode + the possibility of wielding doomwheels as battleline, and other units that can be taken as a battleline option in a mixed clan rather then always having to take clanrats
That's fair. I'm definitely disappointed by the lack of any real line refresh, however as somebody who also plays Nighthaunt, I'm super excited for what kind of battle trait/warscroll changes we have in store for us.
I'm currently playing a Skaven path to glory army that is nearly entirely warmachines. Going for a sort of Madmax Fury Road kind of vibe. I would lose my mind if we had a Doomwheel hero mode!
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I don't understand what all the doom and gloom is about price increases here. You're freaking out over one change in isolation of the changes meant to balance it. Look at every single army book that has come out this edition. There are near universal points increases but the warscrolls and even more importantly allegiance battle traits are also buffed to compensate. Look at the overhaul Nighthaunt is about to get from the book leaks. The points increases on individual warscrolls don't tell you the real story since most of the buffs this edition are to weapon profiles and to battle traits. And just as importantly, GW has been making each of these armies feel more thematic to their faction's lore.
Without fail every single book preview this edition has been met with despair by the people who play that faction. Then the book comes out and the community is split on whether it is good or not. And then people get games in and realize everything was fine after all. Remember when the Nurgle book dropped how everybody thought the book was DOA, but look at how they are doing in the meta even with considerable price increases on their units.
There will likely be a short period between when the box comes out with with updated warscrolls and points but no new battle traits that the units will feel incomplete or maybe even worse off, but once the book comes out you'll get the full picture and it will be fine.
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1 hour ago, mmimzie said:
Is that how this works if you take an extra spell lore enhancement all your wizards get an extra spell from the lore available to them?
Yes. A spell lore enhancement allows every wizard in your army to know an extra spell from any of the spell lores it has access to. They even bold and underline the word "every" in the book passage.
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3 minutes ago, Sception said:
Do they? I thought they were same attack range, same number of attacks, same to hit roll for both, which means both will be rolling the same number of dice to wound and thus both will roll the same number of natural sixes to wound to proc mortals?
Unless you mean shield guard will take less damage before swinging and thus make more attacks, which, sure, that makes sense.
The way you talk about them, though, it kind of sounds like you're picturing them with both shields and great weapons, even though it's one or the other. Which do you go with? Swords can take a bit more of a hit, and thus hope to maybe get in an extra mortal or two, and they're more consistant with the better to wound roll, but half as much potential damage per attack is really going to cut down their offensive potential vs. those hoards you were talking about.
Then again, 14 points a wound and only a 5+ save, with as little recursion as this army seems to have, will great weapon grave guard even last long enough to swing at anything?
Dang but I wish they had the skeletons' get back up rule. Or that skeletons had grave guards chance of proccing mortals. Oh, well.
So I was just kind of messing around with some buff stacking theory crafting and I came up with this: Take Belladamma Volga, Necromancer, and 20 Graveguard with Great Blades. Bella's spell makes the Graveguard's attacks explode on hits of 6s which each can lead to mortals of 6's to wound as well. Then do it again with the Necromancer's spell. If my math is correct...
With perfect rolls: 2 fights * (20 bodies * ((2 attacks) * (2 bonus attacks) * (2 dmg + 1 mortal))) = 480 damage
And that's only with a midsize 20 body unit. Granted, this is top end damage so you can't expect anything near this and this also counts on whole lot of things have to go right in addition to getting both spells off. Sure seems like a fun use of 610 points though.
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I was taking a second look at the tokens that are coming with the warscroll cards and there are at least 3 gravesite tokens. Do these generally come with extra tokens in the case you lose them or something? If not, that seems to indicate to me that there will be some command trait/ability to get an additional 1-2.
AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion
in Skaven
Posted
What a lovely breakdown. Thank you!
Since it is a fairly subtle distinction made in 1.3.3 and multiple factions have a "fight on death" kind of ability, it would be nice if GW would add a bit a of designer note to 1.3.3 making that very explicit. Something to the effect of, "Sometimes an ability allows a model to move separately from its unit and in that case unit coherency isn't broken. Example: Death frenzy...". But you know, written better.