vaector
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What a lovely breakdown. Thank you! Since it is a fairly subtle distinction made in 1.3.3 and multiple factions have a "fight on death" kind of ability, it would be nice if GW would add a bit a of designer note to 1.3.3 making that very explicit. Something to the effect of, "Sometimes an ability allows a model to move separately from its unit and in that case unit coherency isn't broken. Example: Death frenzy...". But you know, written better.
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I also just finished watching Vincy V's Skaven tome overview from yesterday's Warhammer Weekly and they mention how you can stack Death Frenzy and Dreaded Death Frenzy spells on a single unit and it got me thinking, how does coherency work with that? I understand that "fighting" means "pile in then attack" but if it is only for models that died how do you pile in those models without breaking coherency with the rest of the unit? Or are you supposed to just pile in at most the likely fractions of an inch that you can make while still maintaining coherency?
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I can't imagine you wouldn't be able to take a spell on him from the Lore of Ruin. The fact that the spell lore is missing the provision for allowing unique heroes to take it that all of the other 3rd edition books do has to be an oversight that will get patched in the FAQ. But the universal spell lore has been specifically banned for unique units so it makes less sense why anybody would be taking that unless it's just a placeholder or something.
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I've seen several people here including Thanquol with the Flaming Weapon spell within the last week or so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since he is unique, doesn't that mean he is unable to take any spells from the Universal Spell Lore?
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That's fair. I think those point values are enough that you can remove the point difference and the summoning ability and say "how does her scroll compare with the bell now?" Better save, but less wounds. Doesn't require 10 bodies nearby to let her move, Higher bravery. Much better attack profile that is at 3" range so can fight behind ranks plus her ranged attack. 2 caster, though without a casting bonus on warscroll. She is a bonus general. Projects wildwood effect, Can do that +1/-1 to hit bubble in combat, and has a WW12" 5+ ward bubble casted on a 7. Compare all of that to +5 wounds, 5+ ward, a degrading cast bonus, peal of doom, and possibility to summon a verminlord. I don't really know exactly how all of that shakes out but I suspect she'd edge out the bell in battlefield contribution. Though in 1 on 1 she likely is only going to do the kind of damage to the bell that guarantees a verminlord is being dropped on her head next turn. So who knows! I still love the new bell. I just think the Lady of Vines benefits from the "new model, please buy" bonuses like the new boat-ghost for Nighthaunt who is somehow only 175pts. (Nighthaunt players have got to be ready for that price to go up when the new model smell wears away!)
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I agree, the randomness is what makes skaven fun. I hope we get more stuff where there's a relatively small chance of failure, mostly doing fine, then small chance of greatness. Unlike the doomwheel's reroll movement ability that is most likely going to end up with your opponent controlling the model's movement. I don't know what you mean when you say summoning the verminlord means you don't lose anything. Peal of doom isn't insanely powerful but I think it can really add up. Options for 1 and 2 do suck. but 3-6 are definitely nice IMO. -1 to hit rolls in a 13" bubble is pretty strong in a save stacking meta (though -1 to wound would have been better), 1/3 chance of not being able to issue a command to a nearby unit can totally mess up somebody's plan (Lady O is getting this and we're already hearing from early adopters that it's really messed with people), d6 impact mortals isn't crazy but it's not nothing. and aoe d3 mortals (on a 4+) can be pretty decent if placed right. Plus you lose the ability to cast Cracks Call which, I've personally never had much luck with but that's still another thing you're throwing away either a verminlord is summoned or not. That said, after seeing the warscroll for the Lady of Vines, I'm a little less enthused about the bell scroll. Not because I don't like the bell more so because the Lady of Vines scroll is just overtuned in comparison (5+ ward bubble for 1cp?). But in the end you're right, without the battle traits and enhancements speculating won't really get us much farther. Nighthaunt is damn near entirely defined by their battle traits. I think Skaven will be a bit more flavorful on their scrolls and a little less defined by the battle traits but I imagine the battle traits will still the main decider in all of this.
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That's one way to look at it and maybe that's the correct one. However, I look at it more as the point of the unit isn't to get the verminlord out otherwise, yeah just take the verminlord instead. Instead I look at it as a good target for a tanky general that can project power through spells that it can now reliably cast with the +2 and who can project peals out who isn't somebody you need to hold back to keep safe because if you swing at him you better kill him or a demon is about to get dropped on your face. To me the verminlord is almost a psychological deterrent that allows the bell to do the rest of the stuff it wants to do rather than just die asap. This is of course assuming you're not going up against an enemy that can drop him in 1 turn in which case, yeah play a bit more defensive. But who knows how all of this will change when the battle traits are here. All I know is that in my casual/narrative circle, nobody was scared of me rolling a 12 on 2d6 but people are now more afraid of the proposition of even touching the bell.
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I've never played any tournaments so I can't speak from any sort of competative mindset but I was actually really liking the new bell (minus losing a few things like battleshock and still needing to be pushed around for no good reason). The fact that the more damage you take on this fairly defensibly unit, the more likely your summon goes off means enemies probably won't want to throw chip damage at it. They either take it off in one go or don't touch it because if they do that extra verminlord is likely coming out. between that and the stormvermin body guard you can put on it, the bell can be a decent platform that can survive a while to project spells and get some of the peal of doom effects off even if they are at a much smaller range. Maybe that isn't enough to save it but I quite like the fact that it has that implied "if you are going to shoot the king you better make sure you kill him" effect.
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That's assuming the warpseer battleshock immunity doesn't get stripped like the bell did or that the cunning command trait still exists. we'll have a month or so where we can exploit all of that between when the box comes out with updated warscrolls and when the book comes out, but after that who knows what kind of battleshock/CP options we'll have. It looks like battleshock immunity is being stripped from a lot of units this edition. We'll see!
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Same! Or better yet, the Nighthaunt treatment and get the whole book.
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Alter of the Horned Rat means it gains the PRIEST keyword. That makes it a priest the same way gaining the WIZARD keyword allows a unit to cast spells.
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Curse would certainly be ideal but since that's not one of the two default prayers you have to have a way of taking it as an enhancement to begin with. Unless there's a battle trait that allows that to happen I don't see how we'd be able to have access to it. Maybe GW will rule that upon gaining the Priest keyword mid-battle you are able to elect a prayer enhancement for them but I don't know if there has been any precedent for that kind of thing.
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Definitely lots of interesting things to consider. I'm hoping we'll get some battleshock immunity in the battle traits in some form to compensate. I'm also really not sure how I feel about the Peal of Doom changes. The options seem to be streamlined and all useful but the increased backlash chance and halved range does really suck. I was really hoping the Pushed into Battle rule would be reworked in some way. With points going up and up and up it makes it makes the value of committing 10+ bodies to move the bell continually more challenging.
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I'm curious how the whole having the Priest keyword thing works. I'm guessing the only prayers we'll have access to are Bless and Smite. Not sure how useful those are but it's certainly a nice trick to have up our sleeves I guess.
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Just saw this posted on Reddit a few minutes ago.
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