[Kragnos discussion]

On 7/5/2021 at 12:13 PM, the hatchetboy said:

I'm really frickin confused:  without putting actual points values up here, is big K the points value from his book, or the points value listed under Orruck Warclans in the GH2021 pitched battles profiles?

Because that's a big drop over the course of about 2 weeks if it is...

From my understanding, you always look the points from the latest release (Thus, now using the discounted point cost from Orruks).

[The Rumour Thread]

3 hours ago, Aleser said:

So new Lumineth Zoo didnt solve this one, right?

Anatomy is definitely from a canine. Something were-wulfey or a crazier variation of that.

[Rolling run and remaining stationary close combat?]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

 

It's not RAW vs RAI. You are adding layers that arent there. The whole 'going upstream' with rules questions doesn't work if you add things that aren't there. 

 

What layers I'm adding? I'm only discussing on things that are there and I reference the exact rules. Going upstream doesn't answer this question explicitly.

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

 

If you want to discuss this RAW, then you need to support your step 4. You decide to move 0" but it's an 'illegal move', your words. How can that be a choice? Also how can that be a rule? Do we now need to find a passage that says you can't do illegal moves?

 

I think you've totally misunderstood my point.. The core rulebook FAQ states the following " Q: Sometimes an ability is used after a model moves. When this is the case, assuming the model is allowed to make a move, if I decide to leave it stationary, can I still use the ability? A: Yes. For the purposes of the Age of Sigmar rules, if a model is allowed to move, you can choose to ‘move’ it 0 inches. " - This separates that leaving a unit "stationary" and moving "0" as two different things. And like I said, moving 0" is illegal when the unit is on close combat, as it is not allowed to remain within 3" of an enemy when it has made a normal move (so it is not a choice that can be made). Leaving a unit stationary is a choice that can be made.  

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

 

You are interpreting that a 0" move is the same as remaining stationary. In game terms that RAI. (and in my opinion als RAI wrong but that's besides the point). 

 

No I'm not. Please re-read my points and explanations.

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Also in step 2 and 3 you rightly state that you need to decide between stationary or a retreat. quote underneath for clarity.

 Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units.

But you skip that its a binary choice. When you choose retreat it comes with a restriction (ending outside of 3") and an option (to run). 
The moment you choose retreat, and gain acces to the run, you also gain the limitation. 

The binary choice can be made after rolling for the run roll. "When you pick a unit to make a normal move" is the moment when you make a run roll, correct? What creates this conflict is, that "Units STARTING A NORMAL MOVE within...... can EITHER remain STATIONARY or RETREAT" - So when you "pick a unit" to make a normal move, is that the moment when you are "starting a normal move" ?  We don't know the sequence for starting a normal move, does it come at first, which would indicate you have to make that binary choice between running or staying stationary, or is starting a normal move after you have picked a unit to make a normal move (which enables running). I hope this answered you. From my understanding (and I'm still yet to hear something that rules this interpretation out by RAW) it is possible to go both ways. Comes down to interpretation of semantics. It's difficult to get around, and English isn't my main language, so I hope I explained it clearly enough this time around.

[Rolling run and remaining stationary close combat?]

20 minutes ago, Kramer said:

To simplify it: 
Step 1. You get to make the choice of remaining stationary or retreating because you are within 3”. 

Step 2. You choose to retreat now you must move to end up outside 3”. 

step 3. You decide if you also want to run as part of your move. 

But the obligation to end up outside 3” remains. as the choice to retreat comes before the choice to run.

 

(Slightly separate thoughts but that have some bearing on this:

1. During the move phase I can’t ‘go back’ on my choice either. I can’t choose to run, but if my roll isn’t high enough decide I’m just normal moving.

2. The only tricky bit is if you need a certain roll on your run during  a retreat to get outside of 3”. What if you don’t ro high enough? I would argue that’s the only case you can’t actually retreat and remain stationary after your choice because you can’t follow the requirement of getting outside of 3”)

 

 

I do understand this sequence of thought! And it is intuitive (And what I'd like to think is the intent, though intent does not matter when discussing about RAW). That there is the first step (1.) that you choose between remaining stationary and retreating. After you've chosen your "step", you go accordingly to your thought process. The problem is, that by the RAW this isn't the only interpretation on the order.

You make the run roll when you pick a unit to make a normal move. BUT when "starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy" you can either remain stationary (stationary is not a normal move) or retreat (this is a normal move).

So this interpretation is also correct (by raw)

1. You pick a unit in close combat to make a normal move and declare it will run (Running rules)

2. You are now starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy. You  can either remain stationary or retreat (Enemy units and retreats rules)

3. You decide to remain stationary (remaining stationary is not normal movement) OR you retreat (retreat is a normal move) (Enemy units and retreats rules)

(4. You decide to move your models 0", this counts as a normal move - Illegal when in close combat, as you have to be more than 3" from enemies after a normal move, retreat, in close combat)

What underlines this problem more, is this 

19 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I believe there is also one more state you could find yourself in: Activating a unit, retreating, and then failing to retreat. This could happen if you retreat, but need a run roll over a certain number to make a legal move (maybe the unit is blocked by enemies or terrain).  Since you can't be required to make an illegal move, you'll have to remain in combat in that case. I would treat that case as still having moved, though, because the unit was activated.

As if the unit counts as moved, when remaining stationary, it would conflict with the rules of retreat (If a unit retreats, it must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units). Thus, I'd argue, it is possible to roll for the run roll, and decide to remain stationary. 

I think though, both interpretations are "correct" in their own way. Which is stupid/confusing/conflicting, and should not be like that. There is nothing  in RAW that completely shuts out the possibility of making the run roll and deciding to remain stationary. It comes down to semantics and interpretation on the sequence or combining the interpretation of rules regarding this exact situation (rolling for run and remaining stationary) to other rules that are not really discussing this situation (random movement, move phase generally), which is not water proof way of discussing RAW as it relies on interpretation of intent and not on exact wording of the rules.

[Rolling run and remaining stationary close combat?]

59 minutes ago, JPjr said:

So is our interpretation is correct?

no of course its isn't!

assuming you're just a standard unit with no funky abilities then if you are within 3" of the enemy to start with you have exactly 2 normal movement options, remain stationary or retreat

if you retreat, you can run as well as your normal movement

but if you decide to make a move whilst within 3" of an enemy then you must end that move at least 3" away from an enemy

so if you announce that you're moving + on top of that running (which is neither here nor there really) then you can't just stay still and gain some advantage you must move away from the enemy units

now you could use your normal move to retreat more than 3" away from an enemy, roll a d6 for the run move and not use it, but you still have to have moved at least 3"s away, so you can't stay still

 

I would say it is (I hope it wasn't though). My argument:

The rules of running say "When you pick a unit to make a normal move, you can declare it will run". And rules of enemy units and retreats state "Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat".  I have not found any rules or official clarifications, that you would not be allowed (by RAW) to roll the run, and then decide afterwards, you are going to stay stationary. 

I'll try to explain it again: You "pick" a unit in close combat to make a normal move, and declare it will run. Roll the run roll. The unit is now starting a normal move within 3" of enemy. Then you decide, the unit is going to remain stationary and not to retreat. The unit has not now made a normal move (has not retreated), because it has remained stationary.  I understand your logic, and it is intuitive and the way it should be. But currently the rules are written so, that my argument seems to be valid from what I've researched. So you are able to roll the run roll, and still remain stationary.

This is confusing AF, and took me way too many hours looking into this. And my point isn't is this the right way to play when considering "The spirit of the game". My point is, is this RAW or not. I would not like this to be allowed (as it clearly is janky), so that is why I'm looking for a clear statement (raw/official clarification) this is wrong, but I have to admit I'm running out of ideas. 

I do still think, it's important to talk and discuss these kind of rules, which leave too much open. Discussing these will hopefully lead into more clear formatting of rules, and will help TO's to think these things through before a tournament to make their statements on the matter etc.

[Rolling run and remaining stationary close combat?]

5 minutes ago, The Mysterious Mr B said:

If you haven't moved, you haven't moved.

Think of it this way: How many times did you fight? 0. Then you haven't fought. How many models died? 0. Then no models died. So how many inches did you move? 0. Then you haven't moved.

So our interpretation is correct? In close combat you are able to roll for the run dice, and after that decide to remain stationary (thus keeping yourself in close combat - and not forcing you to retreat).

[Rolling run and remaining stationary close combat?]

Oopsie, sorries! 

I actually meant run roll, not a charge roll. My bad. Edited version of the question:

1. Can you roll for a run roll in close combat, but decide not to move and remain stationary, and still count as not having moved?

 

[Rolling run and remaining stationary close combat?]

We had a "small" discussion in our gaming group about a following rule issue:

1. Can you roll for a charge roll in close combat, but decide not to move and remain stationary, and still count as not having moved?

Our final outcome is something like this:

You can throw the run dice and then decide, not move your models (retreat) and instead you decide that you remain stationary. OR you can move 0" to the max allowed movement.

0" movement is always movement, which applies all the effects in the core rulebook (After a normal move, cannot end a move within 3" of enemy units etc.). 

IF you throw the dice roll for a run, it applies all the effects of running (can't shoot or charge later in the same turn etc.). But this does not mean, you cannot decide to remain stationary.

From our understanding, there is no rule that states, that you are forced to make the normal move after picking a unit to make a normal move (starting a normal move) and running for the dice roll.
Core rulebook: "Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat"..... "The unit can then move up to that distance in inches".

This is probably not the rule as intended (seems counter-intuitive) , but RAW seems to allow this. Any takes on this guys?