macrake
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Posts posted by macrake
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10 minutes ago, readercolin said:
YOU ARE "ALPHA" STRIKING WITH NO WAY OF FIGHTING FIRST
If you want to seriously discuss lists, just drop the dumb strawmans and assume other people aren't morons.
The 4x sdg fight first. The other drakes don't charge anything risky.
12 minutes ago, readercolin said:A squad of fulminators can charge, do their damage, and be done. All 37 of their potential charge damage (25 to a 3+ save) is done before your opponent has a chance to respond. 4 Stormdrake Guard are going to do 22 damage (15 to a 3+ save), and then your opponent gets to go. 10 damage to a 3+ save is QUITE significant. If you need something dead, the fulminators have accomplished it before your opponent gets the chance to react or fight back.
Just wrong math. 4 fulminators do 21 melee to a 3+ with 4 mw shooting. 4x drakes do 17 melee to a 3+ with 8 mw shooting. So yeah, 25 from fulmis. Not bad. Drakes also do 25, monstrous stomp and eat a model.
So yeah. And again, drakes don't drop to half dmg next turn, much more tanky, better at holding objectives. You can say that fulminators are cheaper, but they require the relictors translocation, so are they really cheaper?
25 minutes ago, readercolin said:A squad of Annihilators are going to drop down, charge, get their mortals in, and then fight before the opponent has a chance to react. 31 damage (21 to a 3+ save) done before your opponent has a chance to react. In this case, only 6 more than the squad of stormdrakes can manage, but still the difference between killing Archaeon and wounding him.
So your 6 grandhammers will do about 21 to a 3+, with about 6 more mw. Sooo.. 1 more dmg than 4 sdg. And again, Grandhammers are less than half as tanky as SDG. zero mobilty, require a lord imperatant. fails their charge 1/4 times. Dont count as 5 models.
30 minutes ago, readercolin said:Alpha striking doesn't win you games. Objectives and Battle Tactics do. Being able to eliminate key units from the opponents army will score you battle tactics and win you games, and a squad of fulminators or annihilators can do that more reliably without having to throw half your army into the middle of theirs.
Uhm, so Alpha striking doesn't win games. But eliminating key targets do. Can you decide what you want to argue? Funnily, SDG are far better at getting objectives and battle tactics done than Grandhammers/fulminators. That Grandhammers or fulminators are more reliable is just wrong in so many ways. That last bit about throwing half my into... what are you even talking about.
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18 minutes ago, choppa6189 said:
Thinking about using this depending if i can afford all the dragons.
Command ability thunderbolt volley
Knight Draconis - mirror shield or amulet of destiny, menagerie
Knight incantor
4x stormdrakes, swords
2x stormdrakes, swords
2x stormdrakes, swords
6 longstrikes
So double tapping longstrikes and the 4man stormdrake unit so has alot of 1st turn hitting power and threw in the incantor for the dispell scroll. not sure if i can pick a spell for incantor but probably go for celestial blades.
Close to one of the first lists I'll be trying. I think a lord-relictor is auto include. 2+ hero phase teleport is so good. Insures your raptors hit what you want them to, or pull off some crazy moves with SDG.
I basically swap the incantor and 2x sdg for 1x sdg, lord relictor and 5 libs. I like the flexibility of a cheap 145 drake. 5 libs to screen and/or hold a home objective is also nice.
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Oh, so you actually went with my example and take fulminators and grandhammers. I wont bother with your "opponent will just screen you out" argument. Just isn't happening with that much shooting. Maybe castling with pinks, but then you just shoot their heroes and block them in.
So you think 75+ MAYBE alpha is better than 68+ for sure alpha? Yes, your list is very much a maybe. If you're using translocate for fulminators, you're not using it for raptors, which means you probably wont get to double tap them. Also, grandhammers will fail 1 in 4 games.
Even if it all happens. You get 7 more on your alpha. And then way less damage next turn, if somehow your glass cannon annihilators even survive.
Yes, we have units that in theory can outdamage SDG, but in practice, they're not even close to worth what you lose.
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3 hours ago, readercolin said:
and that all this talk about getting a great turn 1 charge off fails to mention that your total damage is... not all that impressive.
Knight Draconis
4x SDG, 2x SDG, 1x SDG
Lord relictor
6x Longstrikes
5x liberators.
Lets go through this lists potential turn 1 alpha. No draconis double shoot. against a 3+ save. No buffs.
For shooting we get: 21 from the longstrikes, 13 from the SDG. 34 wounds shooting. No buffs. Against a 3+.
Melee: 7 SDG about 34 to a 3+.
68 wounds alpha to a 3+ before any potential buffs.
If the opponent doesn't deploy over 24" away, go ahead and add 10 MW from draconis ability and his own shooting, and another 7 from his melee.
You don't think this is impressive turn one alpha? That's a dead gargant for sure, maybe another with some all out attack.
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3 hours ago, readercolin said:
Save swords lances lances charging
2+ 1.93 1.04 3.11
3+ 2.89 1.56 4.15
4+ 3.85 2.07 5.19
5+ 4.81 2.59 6.22
6+ 5.78 3.11 6.22
- 5.78 3.11 6.22Here is the same chart with the lances charging vs not charging.
If you think that you can consistently get the charges off, then yes, Stormdrake Guard are better with lances than with shields. However, you pretty quickly run into a problem.
Once you include the mounts in as well, a squad of 2 stomdrake guard with swords is going to deal just short of 13 damage before saves. Lances on the charge, just over 13 damage. To a 4+ save, the swords can expect just under 10 damage, while the lances can expect just over 11. Once the lances stop charging though, they are looking at just over 10 damage and then to 8 damage expected. Here is the chart with the mounts added:
Save swords lances lances charging
2+ 5.48 4.59 6.67
3+ 7.63 6.3 8.89
4+ 9.78 8 11.11
5+ 11.93 9.7 13.33
6+ 12.89 10.22 13.33
- 12.89 10.22 13.33This is barely enough damage to go through a cheap screen. Any semi-reasonable anvil is going to stop them cold, and then you are going to be stuck in combat for the rest of the game because you can't fight your way out of the chaff that your opponent throws at you.
Yes, if you look at the lances in a vacuum, and you assume that you can always get the charge off, they do look rather good. The problem that we keep coming back to though is that when you look at the unit as a whole, you quickly see that most competent opponents are going to be able to bog you down, and that all this talk about getting a great turn 1 charge off fails to mention that your total damage is... not all that impressive.
Could you point me to these other mysterious units that you think do impressive damage? Grandhammers with an imperatant required for 15% more dmg for one turn, with a 25% fail chance? Fulminators that do the same dmg as SDG if you include shooting, but require a translocation and then drop to half dmg when not charged?
(Lets also pretend that SDG dont do the million other things they do)
Outside of one or two support heroes and maybe 6 raptors for the doubletap, please tell me what you think is worth more than 2x or 4x SDG. I'm genuinely curious.
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11 minutes ago, jeanfluflu said:
1-2 still does one damage
No, only Krondys and Karazai do 1 dmg on a 1-2. Draconis and SDG do no dmg on 1-2.
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4 minutes ago, Balthasar said:
What if I take one unit of Vanguard-Raptor instead of one unit of Anihilators ?
For the prayer it's a mistake, I will take Divine Light
Because you have the stardrake as an anvil, I would take out the protectors and a unit of vindictors and replace them with 6x longstrikes and some aetherwings.
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22 minutes ago, Naprapaten said:I've been thinking about this list, not sure if it has enough bodies though.
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)**
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)**
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred
Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 87
Drops: 9
Bastian is in the list basically for deployment tricks, if the opponent takes the first turn because they think they can kill my longstrikes i redeploy them to safety or just put them in reserve.
Both holy commands for longstrike double tap and paladin attacks. Use bastian with relictor to send him in into smaller chaff, let him take damage and fight with him last so that he can heal himself each turn.Buh or yay? I do feel lika aetherwings can be swapped for 10 skinks.
I like the list. I'll just point out what weaknesses I see. Most obvious weakness is the reliance on the unit of 6x grandhammers. They will fail their charge 1 in 4 times. Thats basically game over right there. The list relies completely on your longstrikes and grandhammers alpha strike. I would go for the one drop. To do that, you'd have to drop the aetherwings. Could upgrade the libs to Vindictors.
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The difference in damage for a charging unit (all attacks included) is about 15-20% more than blades. When not charged, it's 15-20% less than blades.
I personally favor the lances, because Drakes are one of (the?) easiest units in the game to charge. A drake list will also have insane alpha, because the entire list will smash on first turn. Maximizing that alpha is important.
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If you want to have fun at the bottom tables with that one Gloomspite player or BoC guy, go ahead and spend 700 points on 4 ballista and an ordinator to do 10 dmg against a 4+.
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3 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:
As someone who owns lots of Evocators, ballista and castigators, and no Dracoths, protectors or Longstrikes, and can’t buy any big hammer annihilators or dragons because GW won’t sell them, and somehow has to write an event list, this really hurts. 😔
Like where do I even start?
Haha, I'm in much the same boat. At least I have longstrikes though, that should carry me a long way. You could hope that I'm wrong and Pj/jham are right.
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12 minutes ago, PJetski said:
Neither of them are anywhere near trash tier though
Right, lets see how many 3+ win SC lists bring castigators, ballistas or evocators. I wouldn't hold my breath.
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6 minutes ago, jhamslam said:
ohh but theyre not, it just seems like it
A unit of 6 castigators in a sacrosanct themed list, empowered by evocators is 6d3 + 1 shots at 2+ 2+ -2 rend 1 damage
For 210 points that is pretty efficientAs for the Ballista the 2+ 2+ -3 rend D6 damage will terrify support heroes for 140
Empowering the Rapid Fire to 3+ 2+ -2 1 damage aint bad, the problem with the ballista is mainly variance
Yeah good luck with that in a competitive setting. Spending 230 points on evos to empower 6 castigators or a single ballista? At current points, they are worthless if you actually want to compete in a tourney.
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5 hours ago, jhamslam said:
So the weird thing about Evocators is unlike Celestial Blades it CANT be used on Dracoths, Paladins etc, just REDEEMER
BUT it can also be used on any SACROSANCT, which means shooter castigators, and Ballistas (for rapid fire wounding on 2s). Theyre good, just not a spammable death star
You'd have a point if castigators and ballistas weren't trash tier.
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10 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:
*Slams head into table
Big sigh. Was hoping I'd have them for a tourney 23-24th october.
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Evocators worked in two scenarios: Gavcharging 10 of them or translocating 10 of them.
They no longer function in a unit of 10 due to loss of reach. They also lost reroll 1's vs missiles. +1 to wound spell is bad when we can already get that from Celestial Blades.
So they can no longer do the thing they were used for before.
Also, even if they could, we have better units for the role now. Other paladins. Dracoth. Dragons.
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13 minutes ago, Drofnum said:
They already have a 30" threat range in the hero phase once per battle. Its not THAT much different if they get ported to a flank or fly over to it. Either way I doubt thats the intended interaction so may get FAQ'ed.
The threat range on their hero phase shoot is 24". If they can shoot at later point in the hero phase, after recieving the ability, then that hero phase shoot threat range is basically boardwide.
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7 minutes ago, Drofnum said:
Why does it matter when in the hero phase they can shoot? How is it any different than picking to use the command ability in the end of the phase vs the beginning vs the middle?
If they're arguing that it can shoot in a different phase maybe thats a bit different? But really not that game breaking either for a once per battle ability. Its definitely a bit vague and a RAW vs RAI argument for sure.Because SDG can then potientially recieve the ability, then get teleport somewhere by translocation, and then shoot. Would make it impossible for opponent to avoid the hero phase shooting.
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"Once per battle, in your hero phase, you can pick one friendly Stormdrake Guard unit wholy within 12" of this unit. That unit can shoot."
Saw someone on facebook say that this means the SDG unit can shoot later in the hero phase and doesn't have to shoot instantly. I'm not sure personally. Seems absurdly strong. Opinions? Thunderbolt Volley, for a similar example, has the wording ".. can shoot in the hero phase." So for that ability, it seems more reasonable that the unit can wait untill later in the hero phase.
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5 minutes ago, KarrWolves said:
Speaking of Cycle of the Storm, how does that interact with abilities that slain models directly ?
If we take a hero at 5/6W that is slain directly (without inflicting any wound), does he have 1, 5 or 6W after using Cycle of the Storm?
Sorry if that has already been explained in previous editions, but I've never faced the situation until yesterday's game VS Kruleboyz.In that case the mode is healed 1 wound instead of being removed. So yes, cycle counters instant slay abilities like Archaons sword, Nagash hand of dust etc.
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1 hour ago, PrimeElectrid said:
Put them in units of 4. Problem solved.
Current mood:
Army Name: Dragons
Army Faction: Stormcast Eternals
Army Type: Stormkeep
Subfaction: Hammers of Sigmar
Battlepack: Pitched Battles
Points Limit: 2000 ptsCore Battalions
Battle Regiment
Knight-Draconis (General)
Battalion Slot Filled: Commander
Battlefield Role: Leader
Points Cost: 255 pts
Stormdrake Guard
Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
Battlefield Role: Other
Reinforced: Once
Points Cost: 570 pts
Stormdrake Guard
Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
Battlefield Role: Other
Reinforced: Once
Points Cost: 570 pts
Lord-Relictor
Battalion Slot Filled: Commander
Battlefield Role: Leader
Points Cost: 145 pts
Knight-Incantor
Battalion Slot Filled: Commander
Battlefield Role: Leader
Points Cost: 125 pts
Vindictors
Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
Battlefield Role: Battleline
Points Cost: 130 ptsTotal Points: 1795 pts
205 points spare. Leaning vigilors to get that +1 to hit. Maybe a solo dragon.I like it. I'm thinking KD, 4xSDG, 4xSDG, 2xSDG, incantor, LAoGC.
Relictor is great, but not sure it'll do much for drakes considering how mobile they already are. Although relictor+5 vindictors could be nice for stealing an objective. Incantor is a steal at 125 and can give out mystic shield or pull off something tricky with starfall. LAoGC is down to 195. Super mobile wizard to keep up with drakes, always threatens empty objective, cycle of the storm is fantastic and his healing spell is great with drakes. Celestial blades on 4x drakes.
KD, 2x4 drakes is the must have base imo. Leaves 605 points to play with.
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1 hour ago, Frowny said:
Are people worries about bleeding VPs with the dragon heavy lists? They are solid but they aren't indestructible at only 9 wounds you will lose several. Some lists I'm seeing can easily.be giving up 5 VPs just from losing drake knights. That's enough to win the battle but lose the war.
Nah, the alpha will straight up kill one or two big threats first turn. You will give up a few VP sure, but you'll easily get those back by extra VP from battle tactics.
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Although I'm not sure if those of you talking down drakes secretly just want them to yourselves. It's a smart tactic. Dont buy drakes.. they're not that good.
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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors
in Stormcast Eternals
Posted
Couple of things, but mainly that part, yes. So here's the recap.
Hero phase teleport. Lord-relictor casts it on 2+. Can take a command trait to make that 2+ rerollable for a 1/36 chance of failure. Which you'll probably take unless going with monsters, because our only good command trait is menagerie.
It would still be really worthwhile without the bonus of being able to move after, because you can teleport for example 6x raptors and then guarantee their hero phase shoot, at any target you wish.
With the move, you can reliably charge a unit that normally wouldn't be able to on the turn you wish. Or you can make sure a fat unit of SDG get to charge in the hero phase, avoiding unleash hell and redeploy.