Dolomedes
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Posts posted by Dolomedes
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On 3/10/2021 at 5:32 PM, Popisdead said:
Bring back Captain Kirk, the Centigor named Ghorros who slayed a thousand enemies then laid a 1000 ladies. Make Centigors Monstrous Cavalry like models not fast cav. Make the chariot kit a Razorgor kit again and stop with the old ugly crappy looking piggies.
This. Bring back Ghorrok. Clearly fathered Kragnos.
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Army wide buff of some sort if you summon a monster using primordial call points. Make summoning giants/jabberslyth/chimera worth it.
If I was some rank and file gor and I just watched my bray shaman mate cut his leg off to summon a jabberslyth, I'd get pretty pumped.
Could be the way to make gor viable. +1 attack if a monster is summoned. -
Don't forget about points lads.
New rules anxiety can lead to overthinking.
Points distribution is yet to come.-
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7 hours ago, Feorag said:
Maybe..... Just maybe but I have sunk way too much time and money into beasts over the last 20 years for some subpar rules to put me off.
But in all seriousness I don't dislike the book we have ATM just a few of the units need something nice.
If a cygor could eat an endless Spell and unbind a spell rather than getting 2 unbinds that would be spicy and make them worth taking with the new endless Spell rules.
I'd also love us to have a priest type model maybe even expand the bull hero line with a Bullseer or something like that.
I want a holy cow.
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+1 to our pile in moves is looking good. We'll still be able to go wider than most.
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A unit of multiple Tuskgor Chariots could be a decent pick too. We'll have to see what the points are like.
If they remain at 200 pts for 4, that's an auto include for me. Barely any coherency restrictions, solid board coverage, fast, ambushable, and can hit dam hard when given +1 to hit.
Hope Razorgors can function in the same way. I've always wanted to run pack of Razorgor as one unit.-
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Get them double Ghorgon lists ready boys. This new unit coherency rule was written for em.
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1 hour ago, Popisdead said:
4 Ghorgons, 6 Doombulls.
NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO DISAGREE.
Beastmen/BoC is the only faction worth considering for a monster mash.
These other thread posters will attempt to convince you there are other options with their fancy numbers, rules, arguments and reason.
It is all a distraction.
Take the Ghorgon pill and then eat everything else in your beefy path.-
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14 hours ago, Popisdead said:
It annoys me that the one strong competitive build in the BoC book was killed based on one tournament result. Would dropping Tzaangor points back down really do that much? I've toyed with buliding up Tzeentch beasts but slaanesh keeps whispering me back. If you try and find success do share
I wasn't aware of the disk versions being competitive in BoC until reading this - the discs at 140 points does seem a little under costed for what they're capable of though. Despite being a hardened Beastmen player this week is the first time I've bothered reading the scrolls for Tzaangors. The Tzeentch Beastmen arn't proper Beastmen to me - they're just a bit too 'clean'. I thought that the Tzaangor Enlightened on foot would make for a cool conversion though, if I were to get them in my army I'd go for a savage glaive wielding Bestigor look.
3 hours ago, TheArborealWalrus said:I recognize these models, but don't remember where from. I wanted to try these guys out, but I'm already working on my drogors and ungors. I thought of using them like a mobile castle of pain, camping on objectives. The foot guys seem worth it for 100pts. Might proxy in for a test run. Having fought 15 enlightened on discs regularly back in their hayday I feel the points increase was justified. I'd probably drop them 10 points (maybe), but they were stupid. I also fought their ranged kin during 1.0. *shudders* Too many tzeentch armies.
https://mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_fmr_blr_inf_300_110
They're from Mierce Miniatures Fomoraic line - a treasure trove of excellent Beastmen proxies.
I'd love to proxy some in for a test run, but there arn't any games happening in Northern England at the moment. The disk guys do look scary, but there's no way I'd ever take them. The disks just look too silly. There's room for some great conversion work though - units of flying raven like Beastmen would be a treat to see.
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Has anyone tried out using the Tzaangor Enlightened on foot? 100 points for 3 Gors that hit almost as hard as Minotaurs seems like a good pick. They benefit from Bray Shaman movement buffs and they can ambush, so they bring mobility as well as a bit of punch. Unfortunately, they can't run and charge like their Goat-like kin, but their damage output and synergy might just make up for it. The Tzaangor Shaman can give them a flat +1 to hit if he's within 12", and if they don't fight first then they get re-rolls to hit and wound.
I think they would work well behind a block of Gors or Bestigors screening. They have 2" range on their spears, so a rank of Gors/Bestigors in front of them would not only keep them safe (Ungors on 25mm bases are too small to screen out 1" melee attacks), but it would give them a good opportunity to trigger the re-roll to hit/wound ability. You could make a nifty 'Death Star' using a central Bray Shaman (GBS for movement, Tz for damage), a rank of Tzaangor encircling him (their larger base size of 40mm and model height advantage may even block LOS on occasion) and 20 Gors with shields on the outer perimeter. That makes a fast moving block that hits pretty hard and would be tough to shift from an objective.
There is a downside though... I don't like the models. At all.
These boys on some 40mm bases is how GW 'should' have done it
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10 minutes ago, Popisdead said:
They have ALWAYS been popular. I got into them in 2003 and since then back in the Herdstone days, pre BoC on the FB group, and now here beasts of chaos remain a very popular aesthetic army for GW. If only they stopped ****** up the books O_o..
I hope the Kurnothi come back too! That Beastgrave box set might be an indicator for things in the future... It certainly reignited the old battles between Morghur and Ariel in my imagination!
It seems like it would be easy to pull off lore wise - rampaging herds are definitely causing havoc in Ghyran, and Alarielle still guards the woods there just as she did in Athel Loren. Morghur has (somehow) made it to the mortal realms too, so the meta narrative remains intact. Perhaps there could be a storyline development of the wanderers trying to regain Ariel's favour by purging the woods of Beastmen.
Although Wood Elves are the most hated enemy, I still hold a certain amount of respect for them, and I think it's a real loss that they arn't represented properly in the mortal realms. GW might be hesitant to give them a full revamp as the wood elf aesthetic is a pretty difficult IP to lock down. On the other hand though, if it was done well, it could easily be one of their most popular model ranges.
I went to check out the Herdstone the other day, and sadly it looks like it's defunct. I learnt an awful lot from that site!
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1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:
Yeah BoC needs some named heroes back. At least Morghur, who must have found a way to remain in the swirling mists of Chaos when ye olde world was destroyed. Then we could have random mutations all over the place all the time! And beastly magical assistance.
A named hero for each Herd would be good too, though I’m not sure if Doombulls ever get names.
Morghur, Malagor and Gorthor all still feature in my army.
I'd be so happy with a new Morghur model - the fluff is there, and the concept is brilliant. It's always Morghur camping at my herdstone with 10 ungors, just because of his model.
I can't see it happening any time soon unfortunately, but I'm glad that we're still getting fresh kits (Beastgrave, Endless Spells and Herdstone). Despite BoC not being a very strong army at the moment, I think they're still relatively popular compared to some of the other factions.
There are other factions that require more attention than us at the moment, but I'm confident that we've not been forgotten.
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On 9/1/2020 at 3:36 PM, Kirby said:
What I’d like to do:
- Maintain minimal size units to maximize ambush and minimize effects of battleshock
- Take the first turn due to 1 drop.
- Discourage Lumineth battleline wizards with a deep strike cygor, and a deep strike ghorgan’s Swallow Them Whole ability (remove a model that is <1” after combat phase if roll equal or higher than their wnds - that’s a 1+ for wardens and sentinels, 2+ for dawnriders).
- Flatten the LRL Scinari Callathar in one go with a lucky shot from a cygor boulder. Cause otherwise she will seize upon low bravery.
- Deploy one unit of bestigors near the herdstone to avoid battleshock if things don’t goto plan in turn 1.
- use 2nd unit of bestigors to deep strike any LRL Sentinels that are away from the main deployment area. Then, if any survive teleport them back with Savage Encirclement.
It all seems too easy! Well... probably not. What am I missing here? Is this possible? How could I build upon this first 1000pts
There's some really smart ideas in here - I've not thought of Cygors being a hard Lumineth counter, but you're right! Us cloven ones are always lamenting the lackluster Cygor rules, but this looks like a place where they can finally make their mark! As someone who is fanatically devoted to the herd's ruination of Elves, I'm happy to impart some additional bestial cunning your way.
Making a one drop army and using the darkwalkers great fray is an incredibly powerful move. Dominating the movement phase is the way to win with BoC. However, your list might not be able to fully benefit from darkwalker movement shenanigans. The command ability can only be used by units within 18" of a darkwalkers hero. Your list only has the one hero (the GBS), and against a lumineth list it's probably not going to be very effective. At 5 wounds with a 5+ save, you can bet your life savings that any half competent opponent will turn it into a cloven pin cushion turn one or two.
Taking only one GBS means you arn't capitalising on the herdstone's summoning mechanic. In a 1k game, summoning extra units is incredibly powerful. Leave a hero to camp at your herdstone to generate primordial call points (most players put 10 ungors there too to be sacrificed). With a list that's already highly mobile, bringing on extra units from the board edges to support your deployment will win you games. Being able to summon screens, objective grabbers, ranged attacks and pinning units is where the real mastery of the Beastmen is developed. You have access to some of the best chaff units in the game - for free. It can't be stressed enough that playing chaff units effectively is the key to BoC.
The other thing your list isn't capitalising on is one of the best abilities in the BoC book. The Bray Shaman's 'Infuse with Bestial Vigour' adds 3" to brayherd units within 12". This should be utilised by running a Bray Shaman with one of your Brayherd units to effectively make them cavalry. The darkwalker command trait grants an additional +1 to run rolls, so if you pair up a bray shaman general with your Bestigors they get a 9" move with +2 to run with a charge on top. Bestigors do an additional attack on the charge to boot. A nice little tactic is to run your Bray Shaman with your Bestigors for the movement buff, get them into charge range, and then use 'Savage Encirclement' on the Bray Shaman to get them off the table and away from the fighting. However, that does mean that your bray shaman won't be able to cast next turn, or use their movement buff, so if you're going to do it, make sure you can do without them next turn.
To conclude the last 3 paragraphs - take two bray shamans. You should have two if you get two boxes.
I love the idea of taking the Ghorgon to eat unit champs, but unfortunately like many other Beastmen players this will probably set you up for disappointment. The Ghorgon's move characteristic starts at 8" and degrades pretty quickly as it only has a 5+ save. This means that against a ranged army, it's likely to become incredibly slow on turn one or two. By the time Ghorgons get into combat, they're usually not very effective. Taking the Darkwalkers greatfray and ambushing them is one way to get around this, but then you're often relying on making a 9" charge. It's great if it goes off, but usually it doesn't. Even if they do get into combat, that 5+ save usually means they take a pasting from whatever they go into. If you ambush a Ghorgon from the board edge behind something squishy, the most likely scenario is that you'll fail the charge and the squishies will run off next turn. If it's something a bit tougher, your opponent is likely to stand their ground. Ghorgons can smash units to pieces if you roll well, but they arn't very reliable. They're a fiddly glass hammer unit that takes some micro management to get working in your favour. It's a riot when it works, but in my experience, taking another unit of 10 Bestigors for 20 points less is always the better investment (more reliable killing power, movement and objective capturing).
As you've said you want to do this with start collecting boxes, I'm not going to be 'that guy' and recommend you spent the best part of £100 on top of your initial investment. If you want to/are rich enough to do that then I've got a ton of decent purchase suggestions for you, but in the real world, money is actually a thing. I love your idea of building an 'anti lumineth' army with 2 boxes though, so here's how I'd change your list to fit with the initial idea. Drop the Ghorgon and extra command point to take 2 Cygors and 2 Bray Shamans. I think I've justified the second Bray Shaman, but justifying the second Cygor will take a bit of explaining.
You've read the 'Soul Eater' ability of the Cygor, but the second ability deserves a mention here. 'Ghostsight' gives you re-rolls to hit against wizards. As I understand it, the entire Lumineth army are wizards. In a match up against Lumineth, the Cygor is even more terrifying then you first mentioned - they get re-rolls to hit army wide. Those D6 damage boulders are usually pants because of the 4+ to hit, but against lumineth they're killer! This re-roll also applies to melee, so if they want to engage the Cygors head on, they're still a pretty scary prospect. Against almost any other army, the Cygor just isn't worth taking, but against Lumineth, they'll 'eat them for breakfast'.
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18 hours ago, Popisdead said:
They are good for late game objective contesting and speedy. Also they aren't very expensive, 80 points for 5?
Yes just take Gors and put them on horses. GW is dumb for selling Finecast for $70 for 5.
The best use is in Nurgle with Grashrak (the Beastgrave caster). With Blades of Putrifaction they can do MWs on a 4+. I think there was a way to give them +1A as well. Just take 20, turn the front rank sideways, and the back rank can attack also cause they have a 2" reach. 41 attacks hitting on 2s and 20 MWs. I don't know if the hooves also do MWs if so then more for the merry haha.
I've known about this combo for a while, but the idea of turning the front rank sideways so the rest can get attacks in isn't something I've considered before. That is pure filth.
The +1 attack comes from Glottkin's command ability, and it can also cast the blades of putrefaction spell. Take a Great Unclean One as well to give Glottkin and the Centigors a +3 to movement (stacked with the GBS, you can get 20" move, then a run and charge
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There's some truly game breaking lists that can be written using the Nurgle book and BoC together. I've deliberately chosen not to play them because it just gets too cheesy.
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6 minutes ago, Sam24 said:
"Hi Sam24, welcome to the Beasts of Chaos Herd! "
Thanks Dolomedes! And thank you for this phenomenally detailed advice. Brilliant idea with Gashrak. I've actually been trying really hard to get a 200+ model BoC army. Though I've now learnt that Gavespawn is pretty much a must which means I need as many heroes as possible. This inevitably lowers my ability to get bodies on the paint table. I had been searching high and low for a Balewind Vortex, so I understand the issue but love the idea.
Below is my current plan. I've bought everything that is currently available (no ungors or ungor raiders as yet). I did get a start collecting box, so I have built a fantastic ghorgon. But he will be for summoning. Expensive in PCP's and unlikely I realise. But as I said before, I'm going for high model count for the run on team.
So this isn't a list that will excite anyone - no new ingenuity, but I'd appreciate feedback from those who have the experience of having played it. The idea is to ambush the shooters taking advantage of the desolating beastherd buffs. Run up from the front with the rest and hold those objectives as long as possible. It's pretty close to the lists I've been reading about around pages 140 ish.
Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos - Mortal Realm: Ghur - Greatfray: Gavespawn
LEADERS
Beastlord (90) - General - Command Trait : Unravelling Aura - Artefact : Mutating Gnarlblade
Beastlord (90) - Artefact : Brayblast Trumpet
Great-Bray Shaman (100) Great-Bray Shaman (100) - Lore of the Twisted Wilds : Wild Rampage
Great-Bray Shaman (100) - Lore of the Twisted Wilds : Savage Dominion
UNITS
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
20 x Gors (140) - Spears & Beastshields
20 x Gors (140) - Spears & Beastshields
40 x Ungors (200) - Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60) - Mauls & Half-Shields
30 x Ungor Raiders (240)
30 x Ungor Raiders (240)
10 x Ungor Raiders (80)
BATTALIONS Desolating Beastherd (150)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Ravening Direflock (30)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 WOUNDS: 205
Have fun building and painting that lot! It took a couple of years for me to get that amount of brayherd models up to a minimum tabletop standard - never again!
The list looks pretty solid to me. Your strategy of gunking up the board with goats is tried, tested, and proven to be pretty successful. However, if you start to get a bit fed up with dealing with so many models, it might be worth considering minotaurs. I used to run lists nearing (and sometimes exceeding) the 200 model mark, and although it looks absolutely incredible on the tabletop, the novelty wears off when your first movement phases take an hour and a half. 'As many goats as possible' is by far the coolest way to play Beastmen, but I always have some minotaurs packed too, just in case I'm short on time (and patience!).
I can attest to the power of the ungor raiders spam - since day 1 of AOS (pre GHB!) I've been running 60 minimum, and now I have 90. Those boys have never let me down in 5 years. Even without the brayblast trumpet and the desolating beastherd battalion, a block of 30 or 40 raiders is a solid choice.
Regarding the Wildfire Taurus - I don't have enough experience with them to give a thorough account of their effectiveness, but from what I've seen the 'backfire' doesn't really matter all that much. When you're bringing so many chaff units and bodies to the table, you can afford a few mortal wounds here and there. From what I understand, the real effectiveness of the wildfire Taurus is due to it's ability to force a unit to fight last in the combat phase.
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Big units
Has anybody tried running any larger than expected units from BoC? I'm working on 4 Tuskgor Chariots at the moment, and after seeing the points discount for running a unit of 4 (60 each, 200 for 4) I figured that it's probably running them all in one unit for a laugh.
Playing total war Warhammer got me thinking about some other big silly units I could run: a unit of 20 Centigors, a unit of 6 Razorgors, a unit of 6 Chaos Spawn etc. Has anybody tried these bonkers unit sizes?
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4 hours ago, Sam24 said:
Hello to the BoC community. I've been working through all these pages to get a grip on how my list is going to work or not. I'm almost finished with the reading. But one thing I havent seen the answer to from this is the following:
With the headstone ability in sac d3 models gain that many PCP's... I'm thinking I need a unit of ten ungors to stay within 3" and a hero too. Am I right? Or is it possible to use another more active unit from your army to not only sacrifice from but that can also carry out other function simultaneously.
I'm a BoC virgin FYI
Hi Sam24, welcome to the Beasts of Chaos Herd!
You're correct - having a unit of Ungors and a Hero next to the herdstone is a good way to generate primordial call points. They have to be within 3" of the herdstone and a hero to generate those points (though not wholly). If you want to generate primordial call points every turn, you're likely to end up having at least one unit babysitting at the herdstone, away from the action. However, there are a few different options to consider for herdstone care taking.
The Balewind Vortex is an endless spell that is only 40 points. If you cast it, you can put a wizard (great bray shaman) on top of it and add 6" to their casting range. This makes 'Tendrils of Atrophy' (the really good -1 save spell) an 18" range. Stacked with the herdstone's -1 save, this can be quite a threat to anything in range, and your opponent will certainly be intimidated by its presence. You'll probably have to make your own balewind vortex from scenery though, as they're quite tricky to come by now. 'Vicious Stranglethorns' (the spell that deals D3 MW to units by a terrain feature) is also a good candidate for the vortex - it's range gets increased to an impressive 30". Its worth looking at all of the 'Lore of the Twisted Wilds' for more balewind vortex shenanigans - you might spot something really nifty. The Balewind Vortex and the Bray Shaman count as one model, so despite your shaman standing in the clouds, you can still use them to sacrifice ungors when not spellcasting.
If you picked up 'Beastgrave', you've probably got the Grashrak Fellhoof model and his minions. These make a good unit for herdstone babysitting as it includes a hero and some models to sacrifice, for a relatively low cost. There aren't really enough of Grashrak's minions to perform an effective battlefield role, so they make ideal herdstone fodder. Whats more is that Grashrak has another spell that is great for the vortex:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/20/from-the-underworlds-to-your-armygw-homepage-post-2/
I have to make a correction you your original post:
'With the headstone ability in sac d3 models gain that many PCP's... '
The PCPs are calculated by wounds done rather than models slain. You could have a single Doombull sat next to the herdstone to generate points, without having a sacrificial ungor unit as well. Doombulls are now only 100 points, so if your list is tight for points this is probably the most cost effective herdstone caretaker.
You could consider having a dragon Ogor Shaggoth there instead. Shaggoth's have access to a spell that heals friendly thunderscorn units, so you could mitigate the wounds done by self harm. At 170 points, the Shaggoth is roughly the same points cost as a bray shaman and a unit of Ungor (160 total). Unfortunately Shaggoth's can't go on Balewind Vortexes, but they still have access to a very powerful magic lore that's well worth considering. The Shaggoth can also turn into quite a formidable fighter if kitted out properly. A Shaggoth next to a herd stone is quite an intimidating prospect for your opponent - if they don't deal with it, then more and more units are going to show up. If they decide to deal with it, they have to come into the aura of the herdstone and tackle the shaggoth with -1 to their save. The Shaggoth has a solid movement too at 8", which is on top of their 'free' d6 move at the start of the hero phase. If needed, the Shaggoth can make it into the fray if you decide that he would be better placed away from the herdstone. I don't actually have a Shaggoth so I havn't tried this out, but I've managed to convince myself to buy one after writing this paragraph.
That's just about all of the herdstone nonsense I've managed to come up with so far - do any other BoC players out there have any top tips?
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Bestigors are a great battle line choice. 4+ save, 4' pile in, +1 to run rolls, and they can run and charge. They get +1 attack on the charge (which you're highly likely to get) and +1 to hit against units with 10 or more models (re-rolling ones if you're chopping down order). This is all just on their war scroll, before any synergies are considered.
Bestigors can gain 'Brayherd Ambush' for some turn one (or two in some cases) alpha strikes. You can add +3 to their movement from a bray shaman (totaling 9" movement, then a run roll that has +1, and then a charge on top). They're exceptionally maneuverable and can function well as a swift hammer unit, or as a solid block to hold onto a key objective.
Additional attacks can be granted using the Gavespawn greatfray, or by using chaos marks with some support units (or both!).
Bestigors can fill so many different roles in an army - they move fast, they can get really choppy, and taken as a large block they can make a great defensive tar pit too. I find that they usually die in droves, but they always get the job done. Just what's required from a battle line unit.
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Sweet, 10 minutes up the road from me. Are tickets available from the store in person? I'll be in Stockport tomorow.
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AoS 3 New Rules Discussion
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
20 points either direction can make or break a unit. Sometimes entire army composition. Monsters, Heroes & shooters are probably all getting redone as they've got new rules. Unit coherency might not matter if taking max heroes & monsters becomes the done thing due to point redistribution. Hope it doesn't get too shooty though.