[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

Tzentch + spell portal would make summoner a bit redundant but you could go for threat saturation. Shove 2 units of chosen in their face turn one. Archaon would be hard to fit but you could thrown him in their face. You can give him 3d6 charge before going through the portal too.

If you wanted to go all out you could go cabilists, 3d6 cast portal and soulseekr boat and the summon can get basically anywhere on the board and another unit has an effective 27inch + base size move.

It's a lot of points though and you'd need to work out what is it your going to throw at em.

Gnarlspirit pack can also deepstrike, and potential use warp reality if you went for first prince legion.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

8 hours ago, Bayul said:

It depends on the situation and mission I imagine.

I am probably biased as Nighthaunt player, but such slow units don't appeal to me if they don't have an early impact. From my perspective Chosen are questionable with the lack of mobility, not the Gaunt Summoner on Disc. I want to dictate the game with threats and obstacles and putting Chosen or Warriors plus a TZEENTCH missile unit plus a powerful caster on an unexpected spot gives me the illiusion of control through disruption.

Some other shenanigans are possible with tzentch and the spell portal. Cast warp on the unit through the spell portal then deploy them within 9 of the other portal that's 18 inches away. It's not wholly within either so you can cheese a lot of range out of it

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

2 hours ago, Bayul said:

That's your argument? Then you are aware of the range and don't use Silvered Portal. That's the point of assessing the threat range (and asking for the amount of drops).

His ability takes place in Deployment after deploying the Gaunt Summoner on Disc. You can still choose not putting a TZEENTCH unit into the Silvered Tower and deploy it as usual if the risk seems too high.

Nevertheless with proper terrain you might have an opportunity to hide him. Then fly over it in your movement phase with 16" Movement. He's even allowed to run and use Silvered Portal if you need the additional range. With a screen summoned next to him he benefits from Look Out, Sir!. A Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore is definitely more exposed to said Ironblasters turn 1.

I mean if you like him then go for it. Yeah you can deploy out of range, then move into range and drop, but if it's dropped on the first move have you got somewhere that beneficial? sometimes maybe.. probably not if you had to start deployment out of range of any threats. or don't use portal and waste those points. For the cost and risk he involves I'd just look at taking the bridge endless spell.

Personally the unit has too many circumstances where it's handing your opponent easy points.

Anyway, I could be reading it wrong but your replies seem somewhat snarky and less conversational so I'll leave it at that. If you enjoy it and find it useful then great, I don't think it's great personally and in general, I'd say looking at what people run, he's not a popular choice and there's usually a reason when a nice looking model doesn't get much play.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

9 hours ago, Bayul said:

How? Why would you make that happen? Don't you ask your opponent about the thread range before deployment?

Sure, deploy out of range of those iron blasters...

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Can I ask why everyone has collectively decided the Gaunt Summoner on Disc is kind of ****** but rates the chaos sorcerer lord on manticore? 

I've not played with either but the gaunt summoner has some big vulnerabilities. Very fragile, and he's crazy expensive, you don't just risk his points, you risk loosing the unit he can summon onto the board. If you bring something cheap to mitigate the risk you don't really get much value out of him but if he gets shot off and you loose a unit of varangaurd too because he hadn't dropped them, that's probably game over.

The manticor lord has a great anti-hoard spell, monster actions, is more survivable, better combat profile.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

35 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I dont get why you keep comparing Chosen to Gotrek? Sure they are both a combat unit, costs about 500 points and same speed but Chosen have a waaaay bigger foot print than Gotrek and hence a way bigger threat range. Im assuming we are talking 2.000 pts armies here, which means you have other units in the army - Maybe a unit or two of Varanguard to chase up a flank and threaten shooting armies. At the end of the day, the opponent has to get to the objectives, which is where your Chosen will be, and if he spends 3 turns "kiting" your Chosen then thats an easy win. There are maybe 2-3 battleplans in the current GHB where the objectives are so far apart the movement will be an issue, but again - You have other units in the army. I find its really not a big deal, especially if you run them as Slaanesh. 

Well I make the comparison because I see gotrek and chosen as comparible, obviously not the same but similar in important ways.

Another comparison would be Kurnoth Hunters. Both are units that cost 250 points for 15 wounds on a 3+ save. both M5. Kurnoth can be teleported, chosen get marks.

The damage output is quite similar. Kurnoth will do slightly better in a straight comparison but both have access to lots of synergies.

Different books with different play styles but Kurnoth are frequently outshined by other options in that book and rely heavily on mobility support to work. If you removed that mobility from them, they'd likely never see play... And they'd still technically be better than chosen in many ways.

In terms of objectives, perhaps a comparison is mega gauagants, another unit of similar points cost with a unit of 10. They traditionally hold objectives really well and will also be a good counter to chosen with roar, their damage and battle shock, while also winning the objective for likely a couple turns even if they die. How do you defeat megas? Board presence - they can only be in a few places so you bring your forces to down on one a turn. If they have a M5 mega that's even easier because it's going to be so much harder for them to counter. Similarly, a 500 point unit of chosen NEEDS to be doing damage because it's not not across multiple objectives and while it's walking around, other units get ganged up on, or you castle the chosen to protect everything else but loose even more board pressure. Basically, if a 500 point unit of chosen sits on an objective and says come at me, you can just bring an extra 500 point down on something else, or again, just enjoy a 500 point lead after wiping them out with sentinels.

I don't think they're bad or unplayable, I just don't think they do enough for their points because they don't have consistent enough ways to be where they need to be or the defensive stats you need an investment that expensive to avoid hard counters like ranged mortal wounds.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

16 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

The Centurion Marshall can only rally Undivided Units on a 5+. 
 

The Chaos Warshrine must be the mark of its prayer, i.e. it must be Slaanesh Marked in order to do the Slaanesh prayer, but the unit receiving the prayer must be the same mark as well. So the Warshrine must be Slaanesh itself to give the Slaanesh prayer and the unit receiving the prayer must also be Slaanesh. It’s a lot more strict than it used to be. 

He's referring to First Prince subfaction where one unit can gain a mark in addition to undivided each turn.

16 hours ago, Biboune said:

My be give Eternus a try: he can give you 1 cp every turn quite easely, both furies and legionnaires have cool rules.

Legion of the first prince is where the chosen can shine I think, universal mark with the right banner, changing mark without loosing the eyes of the god rolls. Centaurion Marshal is costy but can be include along 10 models chosen unit as he can 5+ rally every mortal S2D. 

 

Regarding the warshrine, I would take it primary for the ward and as a backup if daemonic speed cast failed. If the spell is cast, the pray would be try on another unit. It is a pain that the universal pray is bad: with legion of the first prince it could change is mark if needed, helping nurlge warriors or slaaneshy knight

Belakor is one of my favorite units and Eternus looks solid although I don't have that model yet. Legionnaires don't inspire me but furies can keep up with Eternus. He seems like a distraction model to me so you want to push him up and legionnaires slow him down.

 

2 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Chosen are amazing.

Im actually starting to lean away from Warriors and Knights. Warriors in 10s are a bit too squishy for me but 20 is way too durable. A unit of reinforced Chosen only costs slightly more than 20 Warriors but sit in that middle ground durability wise, however their damage is through the roof, even with Nurgle banner. The trade-off is a nobrainer for me. 

Knights are OK on the charge but beyond that they do absolutely pitiful damage and to me they are more like a mobile anvil in units of 10 with Nurgle mark.

Chosen are slow, but so are many other units in the game. Slaanesh certainly helps when giving them run + charge and +2 charge. I will be toying around with Soulcream Bridge and Levitate. 7+ with a reroll is fairly reliable.

On most battleplans you sit 22" apart. If you run them up turn 1 you are sitting in the middle of the board on the objective. You dont have to run all over the board and chase things, for that I would have a unit or two of Varanguard that can flank and do so extremely well. 

If you are worried about not choosing the engagement I would consider battle regiment and including a screen or two that runs up in front of them to take the impact and then trade. 

Lots of units are slow but if you look through the meta, very few are slow combat units (in tournament winning lists). Hearthguard are one of the rare examples and they have the durability to pull it of and delivery options. Grave guard would be another.

In general, the competitive combat units either have some form of really good durability, or a way to move fast/teleport.

I could be wrong, time will tell, but Chosen seem hard countered in some match ups. Sentinels spam in LRL or Morathi with bow snakes in DoK are common competitive lists that will wreck Chosen. Once you include a screen in addition to a 500 point unit, that moves at walking speed, any smart opponent can play the objective game with the advantage in most scenario that have 4+ objectives because just like gotrek, they lack power projection (although not as badly).

Happy to discover I'm wrong, I hope I am because they're beautiful models... I just don't see it.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

27 minutes ago, Biboune said:

True, I forgot about the darkoath beeing "hard universal". Idolator command trait is less pertinent here. What I like about the chaos lord is the protection given by the retinue, Making them fight after him is a bonus. As you say, chaos sorcerer get snipe. He has 1 more wound and better save than an chaos sorcerer and a kind of 3+ ward.  If the retinue is nurgle warrior with the banner, the 5+ ward against mortal wound and the -1 rend in melee apply if I am not mistaken. As you say, he can be shot to death but it seems to me that is will take more resources than shooting down a chaos lord giving some respite to the other high value units of your army.

 

I think that the first spell of the S2D lore is quite good (damnation "thing" i don't know how to translate): the one making the target fight last. It always nice and it works well with chosen and in a lesser way with the varanguard.

 

Regarding the chosen, they lack the 5+ ward against MW of knight, 4+ of the varanguard. They are slow. May be 5 of them can hide from shooting units and they can protect a Sorcerer from melee if he hides in the middle of the unit. I'll try them with slaneesh mark, and may be with a warshrine. The pray is 3+, the 6+ ward can be redundant with the eyes of the god roll but it applies to all units close enough. They pray can be sing in the same turn as daemonic speed. Best case scenario the varanguard could go 10"+3d6 and the chosen 5+1d6"(6" with a command point spent)+3d6".

May be not good enough for a tournament list but it could be try?

I've found that my slaves list is really command point hungry, you want rally, knights want all out attack, nurgle warriors love all out defense etc. My current list has been a one drop and the glaring weakness is that my sorcerer gets sniped and my command points generation drops off a cliff. I've been thinking about a chaos lord and retinue with arcane tome just to keep him around longer. I'd agree that in most cases though he doesn't really do much for his points.

Another player was using the shrine and siggy and it's good but inconsistent. On the turn you need to make that charge, a 33% chance of failure before you even roll for the change is rough. I think chosen will have the same problem. Usually it'll work, sometimes it won't. In a tournament setting that's the same issue that sylvaneth have which keeps them out of the 5-0 bracket (they have a lot of charge combos relying on spells). I'd hazard a guess that even with a really good piolet for the list, slanesh chosen will go cap at 4-1 at tournaments due to that consistency factor.

It won't be long until we start seeing the data though. Due to having great models and surface value great rules (lots of damage, relatively tanky) I suspect plenty of people will be running them.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

I'm really not sure about chosen. The models are great but as mentioned in a unit of 5 they're a priority target that can get lifted too easily. When double reinforced I see them as comparable with gotrek. They're similarly resilient with the rally in host and the buff they can take through banners or marks, and they will murder most targets but they have a delivery problem. 500 points for a M5 unit that needs to be in combat seems really match up dependant to me.

Like any slaves unit they have a lot of flexibility but if you try to make delivery better by going slanesh then you're making them easier to lift, if you go nurgle then they're hard to deliver etc. They sort of demand even more points being spent to shaw up the gaps at which point, while they can do amazing work, you have to consider what you could achieve with those points in other options.

As tournament lists start to form I could be proven wrong but I suspect the unit is a Timmy trap. Too many armies with easy access to range units that can kite them, or mortal wounds will counter them. Even when they shine against other combat armies like iron jaws, they either lack the movement to choose the engagement meaning or they're soft enough that another dedicated combat unit like a mawcrusha can lift them, the good combat units in the meta also tend to have good movement too so in the heavy hitter match ups where first to strike wins, the opponent has the advantage.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys a question about gorebeast chariot:

At the end of combat i do a normal move and at 3+ d6 mw to enemy unit i passed across. Can I finish that normal move within 3" of another enemy unit? Thx:)

Nope, normal moves cannot end within 3 of an enemy unit. You can however move 0.5 inches forward then 8.5 inches back and still roll for mortals.

I haven't played with them much but I've found that's often easier to do then go straight forward because of that 3 inch no go bubble. It's often a challenge to get across the unit you charged and keep away from other stuff.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

I've found a nice trick with warriors to to move them up to the objective turn one but instead of standing on it, just have one model put a toe into it, you don't even need that if you hold two +more already. It means you're pretty much guaranteed the extra attack if anything tries to take the objective away. This is also where warriors to well and force the opponent towards them. Mid-field objectives. I'm fine with a 220 point unit getting avoided if I'm getting a 1-2 VP lead each turn.

I do a similar thing with darkoath on the home objective, they take it, then usually hide in a near by objective to jump back into it if anything takes it.

On another note, I've not tried the new darkoath warcry unit but that seems playable for 160. No subfaction lock so you could potentially put them in cabalists to help the wizard or ravagers so that they can summon a unit after they come in from a board edge. They're a good utility unit.

 

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

4 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Got my first Mutalith assembled tonight!  Really not sure I want to glue the tails or warp-ball on though....thinking when I get my second one, I can use the tails from both to make the tentacly mouth on a custom third one, and one warp-ball to make a staff for my kitbashed Lord of Change...who will be allied in as their caretaker.  Are the points in Warscroll Builder at least accurate?

Probably Despoilers for the extra wounds?  Or Cabalists for better magic?  Tome is not arrived yet, but this one's for funsies of course, and pure Chaos! 

225....Karkadrak Lord (general, Tzeentch, Arcane Tome)

135....Sorcerer Lord (Tzeentch)

400....Allied Lord of Change (Levitate)

400..... 4 single Chariots (not sure what Mark, I think Slaanesh makes things able to charge 3D6?)

190....2 Sphiranxes (because I have them and striking first helps crappy units)

525....3 Mutaliths

50....Soulsnare Shackles  (to prevent some charging)

40.....Prismatic Palisade  (to prevent some shooting)

I'd recommend cabalist. The vortex will die if anything nasty gets them and the extra wounds won't do much about that.

If you're playing with the models you have it'll be a fun army and you'll have a great time. I think if you wanted to make it a bit more competitive, the karkadrak could either be dropped, or swap the chariots for some knights. Palasade will be tricky to position.

If you find that combat armies are getting into you, I'd drop the kark for some cheap heros, swap a couple chariots for iron golems, drop the palisade, and put in realm scourge.

There's a potential cool combo with shackles, realm scourge and daemon rift. Half their movement, mess up their charges, and make them eat d3+2 mortal wounds while the vortex also throws mortals and summons spawn and the LoC does range damage. Basically, the core of your list is already a magical gunline that doesn't want to be charged, so building a castle and denial further into your list plays into that strength.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

Purple sun is a good endless spell and rend 2 warriors or rend 3 knights will do some work but I think it's less efficient in StD than it is in say Night Haunt who can really maximize it or KO who can use range to get more economy from it.

It's always going to be good for pretty much any army because it's base value is good but it's not as synergistic with StD as other armies that frequently take it

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

In terms of list builds, I've been having success with a one drop host build.

- nurgleSorcerer, master of magic and arcane tome
- 20 Nurgle Warriors w anti rend banner - 2x 10 nurgle warriors

- 2x 10 darkoath

- 3 khorne varangaurd with spears

10 khorne knights w +1 wounding banner

- sigil

It's ridiculously tanky, has hammers to deal with threats, and there's a beautiful synergy with getting to pick who starts and the sigil, which works both defensively and offensively.

I'm really surprised more people don't sigil. 40 points for a spell that often gives your entire army an extra attack.. just sacrifice a screen of darkoath or blow something up with knights/varangaurd. on warriors alone that increases their output by 33%, factor that across the whole army and it's insane how much value you get. There's so many games where the winner is decided on the priority roll and this spell will pull the rug out from under people because they need to choose between handing you the double or fighting an army that's almost doubling it's damage output.

 

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

I'd say that the sorc on manticor is a great option. I think he's basically an auto include in cabalist because he's one of the few sources of magic damage in the book.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

I think another option for dealing with screens is the doom sigil. You just play into their plan because it plays into yours. Charge your warriors in with sigil and demonic power up and blow the screen away. Then give your front line units +1 attack. This is even nastier if you're charging into their deployment zone. Those nurgle warriors can have 4 attacks each hitting and wounding on 2s.. there's not many hammers out there that can deal with 40 wounds on a 2+ save and 5+ mortal shrug. Odds are they value trade in the opponents turn simply by playing into the opponents 'trap'. Or they can pass the turn back to you and the +1 attack drops but now you get a double. It's a win win situation for you. Obviously this doesn't work in all situations, a gunline that lost it's screens won't care you have extra attacks if they take priority.

It's even better with our own screens like fangs or darkoath with sigil, because they can charge in and  clear screens easily, and with +1 attack going into the priority roll, really force the opponent to think.

 

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

The next obvious build is all about damage resistant Chaos Warriors and Chosen just marching across the board. Doesn't matter who charges first here. In theory you should grind them down by being tougher and sustaining higher damage output. That is: beat them by being better. Unfortunately this is a points based game, so things should be equal. One can't just rely on one's troops being better.

You might add some knights also to get the combined hammer and anvil, with the combination in theory creating more opportunities to use your tactical genius to swing the balance in your favour. I guess you need to experiment with both extremes, all heavy cavalry or all heavy infantry, to see how they work.

I've been playing around with warrior heavy builds and you need some mobile hammers or there are certain match ups you just loose on. Stuff like hearthguard will win the attrition battle with their 4 up ward, and mobile armies with firepower like KO can kite you and while StD are tough, they not though enough to just stand of objectives and take shots. Chosen have good damage but they're too slow to be a realible hammer if you don't have anything else.

I have found that a solid line of nugle warriors backed up by some khorne knights and varangaurd gives you the flexibility to counter charge hammer and anvil style, or send them forward aggressively if the opponent has something like KO. I've actually found the chaos one drop battalion really good too for this style of play. No other army can put as many units down in a one drop as we can.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

I don't think there's really much benefit to having 5 chaos lord's attached to one retinue anyway. I guess it could be fun in cabalists to protect you from misscasting. If it doesn't get FAQ'd I don't see it causing any problems.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

Fang are definitely too cost efficient right now, they'll trade well with almost anything without much thought being needed for position, especially in Ravagers. Once khorne is updated that'll fix the truly problematic combos using them though.

They are however very weak to getting shot. Even modest shooting will lift them.

I think the mortal wound spam is powerful but what really pushes the into being a problem is wounding on 2s. They should be 4s and 4s, then your pretty much reliant on MWs only. Right now they do a ton of wounds and force a bunch of saves.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

In terms of marks and fluff mentioned earlier, giving a unit a mark is game wise, a set of rules, you can make your units all 'undivided' and give them whatever marks you want, the marks don't change the narrative just the rules. Just be clear with your opponent what the rules are.

I agree that for his points Archaons output is low relative to his cost, but I disagree that this makes him a bad choice. He will still easily remove a unit a turn unless it's a really dedicated anvil, no battleshock immune is a hidden combat buff for him too and the claws went from d6 damage to 5. His khorne head can also break coherency.

Mark him nurgle and get him stuck into the enemy ASAP. He immediately forces your opponent to either trying to deal with him, which will likely involve them trading down, or ignoring him and letting him go ham on their units.

I would also say that he can be an incredibly hard to lock down unit if your opponent wants to feed him chaff because even with the FAQ, he can still teleport out of combat then use steed for a 3d6 charge.

I don't personally like running models that are such huge investments but I'm confident we'll see one for two lists doing well in tournaments that have included him.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

The only warshrine use I see is with slanesh. You can meme and give Sigvald 3d6 charge/attacks.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

11 hours ago, ibel said:

no. Just for MORTAL Slaves...

 

Very very much support 4 just 1 Modell.

Sigh - I keep missing the mortal keyword scattered through this book.

 

Yes, it's not an effective way to spend points but the stated intention was to make a Khorne DP as killy as possible. 

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

Along with the artifacts and traits you mentioned a lot of the buffs to charge up a Khorne DP will come from other parts in the list.

The most directly impactful ones are going to give extra attacks: blood secrator, death bringer, wrath mongers, sigil. That's 4 additional attacks in total. A stoker for charge bonus and wound rerolls.

Within out own book a sorcerer can give him +1 to hit and wound.

Put that all together aaannnd you have 10 attacks, 2s and 2s, 2 mortals on 6s, rend 2 damage 2, that can double activate once a game.

It's 100% meme but he'd be the blender he's meant to be.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

Has anyone seen the warscroll for spawn in the slaves to darkeness book? Is it the same as the one disciples of tzentch got?

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion]

6 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I like the idea of stacking as much as you can into those 8 attacks, but I don't think the Eye of The Gods parts work on him. The Chaotic Conduit spell requires that the target have the EYE OF THE GODS keyword and the prince doesn't have it. Unfortunately the undivided mark only gives it to mortal and ogroid units.

Ohhh, damn, yeah... I missed that bit with undivided key word. I thought giving him the mark would unlock eye of gods