Btimmy
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Posts posted by Btimmy
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55 minutes ago, Verminlord said:
I was so sure grave guard were getting axed after seeing the new armoured skellies. This is very good news for skelly fans assuming it is reflective of the book! If grave guard are in, you have to imagine they are getting a new kit to bring them up to new skelly standards.
Now I just need black knights confirmed...
They have been confirmed for awhile. The community post that references the new wight king on steed talks about him leading black knights.
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42 minutes ago, SilverJelly said:
Or could double down on Crawlers with 4 and 3x 20 Mortek Guard.
Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
Leaders
Liege-Kavalos (200)
Mortisan Soulmason (140)Battleline
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and ShieldArtillery
Mortek Crawler (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)Total: 1920 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121This lists is better but 4 is almost certainly overkill. You need more heros to generate rdp and draw fire, even if they are only bait.
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7 hours ago, SilverJelly said:
With the new meta inbound and Crawlers a little unreliable, what do you guys think of this list?
Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Legion: Stalliarch Lords
Leaders
Liege-Kavalos (200)
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
Battleline
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
30 x Mortek Guard (390)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
30 x Mortek Guard (390)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
Battalions
Mortek Shield-corps (120)
Kavalos Lance (120)
Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
The thought is trying to get first turn and Kavalos tying up units in combat turn 1 and then running the rest of the guard to claim objectives and weathering the storm playing the attrition game from that point forwards. This would force you opponent to have to make it through chaff and then you main blocks of guard.
Crawlers are in fact extremely reliable, even if they don't instantly kill the support heros, they force your opponent to be worried and deploy differently. I think this list doesn't have the damage nor the durability to play at the top tables. Your heros are going to die extremely early, and by taking the first turn you open yourself to getting doubled, which is disastrous in this shooting meta.
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My comment pertained to all LRL in comparison to the other armies of the game. The first wave was strong, and the second wave introduces a variety of crazy mechanics that are even more powerful. Some examples include piling in 6 inches and not being required to move closer, free terrain piece that buffs casting and provides for free CP generation, messing with your opponents ability to pile in, and the 24 inch movement bowman that cannot be charged because he moves 12 inches at the end of EVERY shooting phase.
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20 minutes ago, Gecktron said:
Nagash creates a huge vortex of death energy in the center of Shyish, empowering his forces in the Prime Innerlands (previously one of the safer regions for the living)
raises the dead all over the realms and gifts him a completely new Legion with the NighthauntFrees Katakros from Sigmars prison and releases the Ossiarch Bonereapers, which proceed to build their own empire and completly stomp on many cities of Order
Retakes BOTH sides of the Shyish Arc-Way and establish a permanent base inside the Eight-Points
DEATH got alot out of this era.
Creation of a new army is not a win, its an excuse to sell models. I am talking about actual head to heads with other lore characters.
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31 minutes ago, Beliman said:
Wait until you have some games vs them before having an strong opinion. I'm fine with what they got, and I think that if they use a lot of this seconds waves, they are going to be worst than what they are now. Time will tell
Not sure why you are assuming I don't have games against them. I've played enough against the first wave to know that playing against them is going to be like playing against seraphon but worse. 20 archers for 280 that ignore line of sight requirements and regularly spit out 6-8 mortal wounds per shooting phase means there is quite literally nothing you can do to protect any support hero.
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43 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:
So for anyone wanting to read a summary of the narrative in BR: Teclis, scroll to the bottom of this article:
https://spruesandbrews.com/2021/03/27/broken-realms-teclis-and-new-lumineth-realm-lords-battletome-2021-review/Don't click on my hidden text below if you don't want spoilers from BR Teclis and my thoughts on how it may effect Soulblight
So it sounds like both Arkhan and Nagash are "destroyed" in the sense that they will need to be recuperating for some time to regain their power/strength. ALSO, Nagash's nine books were destroyed AND on top of that, it appears Nerferata and Mannfred are trying to backstab each other. ALL of this combined, I wonder if we see Soulblight Gravelords fill the Death void of power now that Arkhan and Nagash are in remission, so to speak. With Nagash's nine books destroyed I wonder if this weakens his hold on the Soulblight? I am VERY interested to see how things unfold for our Vampires!
SpoilerI think this makes Nagash 0/4 in the lore. Nice. Gotta love when GW makes a god who literally does nothing but lose to other characters.
For the curious:
1. Sigmar chases him down and smashes him.2. Archaon stabs him.
3. Skaven mess up his Necroquake.
4. Teclis jobs him here.
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2 hours ago, eciu said:
I think that the seeing this Brok (or people who wrote his rules) should go find a deepest Gnawhole, go there and never appear again.
This applies to all LRL, I dont know what the rules writers were thinking with the amount of absolute bullshittery for that army, and I mean just pure warscroll text, not even counting their amazing army wide rules.
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3 hours ago, Phasteon said:
What would be nice additions to OBR anyway?
- Archers. We‘ve seen the model in the new Underworlds Warband and its pretty obvious what a unit like that would look like ruleswise.
Would really help with range pressure.
- What about a unit of „half skeletal - half shadow“ assassin/skirmishers with some kind of teleport outside 9“ mechanic to threaten backline targets / weak characters / grab unprotected objectives.
- Chariots were mentioned and could also fill a nice role of „beefier monstrous cavalry“. Probably sth around 6-8 wounds, lots of different attacke between mounts and charioteers and some nice special rules.
- A unit of „lesser Mortisan acolytes“ that can rebuild models/ cast spells/ and maybe have some range missiles.
- More missile attacks in general. EVERY named wizard has some kind of ranged attack. Let Arkhan please throw some kind of Dark Energy bolt to weaken targets.
- Rework the Spell Lore. Most of the time the spells feel so useless.. yeah reinforce weapons / shields need to always be up but lets be real here... shields effectively gives +1 to the deathless save against MW only and weapons does sth every LRL unit can get by design... using 2 spellcasts on our expensive mages feels a bit too taxing.. there are some nice shenanigans you can pull off with protection of Nagash - no hate on that.
But Arcane Command, Mortal Contract and Drain Vitality just feel so lacking.
I think regarding our weaknesses in general „low range threat / no shenanigans, very straightforward gameplay“ our spell lore is a big reason for that.
In general I still rate the battletome as pretty well designed but there are definately many things that could be improved in the future.
One last note:
Morghasts.
I dont know what, but they need some sort of help.. They also feel very lacking.
-Archers: I don't really want them. Crawlers already fulfill this role very well, and adding more shooting to the game isn't something I personally want in light of the current KO/DoT/LRL/Seraphon meta.
-Shadow Skeletons: Not sure this is really on brand for the army. Teleports would be neat, but not every army needs that specific trick. OBR definitely needs SOME sort of tricks, as right now any skilled opponent can look at any OBR list and know exactly what the game plan is, but I'm not sure deepstrikes are it.
-Chariots: Would be great, but Big K is pretty anti-chariot in the lore, which is unfortunate.
- Acolytes/Missiles: Like I said above, increasing shooting saturation is not something I want, and death's wizard units have always been stand-alone hero's, so not really on brand.
I would want more bone constructs similar to the necro-sphinx, who's job is simply to kill. A liege foot hero that is actually killy, more infantry options for battleline, such as a unit of 5 2/3wound bruiser skeletons. Morghasts need a warscroll overhaul to be even remotely worth it.
Spells I actually think are mostly good, drain vitality is a fairly decent spell against hordes, and arcane command is good for lower point games. Only Mortal contract is pretty meh, and empower shields got hit with the death nerf to after saves. More offensive spells, which would give us access to mortal wounds would also be good. -
1 minute ago, Scurvydog said:
Yea just disappointed our new stuff is doubling down on the most pointless thing I could have come up with. OBR has now been part of Wrath of the Everchosen and got nothing there and now BR Teclis, we are not likely to see OBR take center stage anytime soon, so this was the chance to get something interesting to mix things up. Most of all I had hoped for battleline options, as my lists end up so samey as mortek and kavalos eat up so many points...
Gonna need a second release of units for anything like this to change. I imagine eventually OBR will get the LRL treatment and have a series of new units added, probably with another battletome. If not, yeah looks like its going to be Katakros + MP + Double Crawler for the foreseeable future.
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1 hour ago, Honk said:
Make them battleline and I will blot out the sun 🤪 Just like the old 40 wolves lists ...
i hope they just hit Lumineth with the nerf hammer, their rules sound ridiculous, like they did with petrifex.
those 3 month buy in broken rules are stupid. Still remember getting the hate for my Gristlegore GkoTg and afterwards the „aiming for a fair play trophy“ jibs when I didn’t field him 🤣
I can't believe people still think petrifex needed a nerf. Objectively speaking PE on release was a completely balanced sub-faction whose only issue was that the other sub-factions were so much worse that no one would ever take them. The solution was to buff the other subfactions, not nerf PE. Ivory Host? Crematarions? Jokes. Null Myriad? Either amazing or worthless with no in-between, meaning it is useless for a take all comers list. Mortis Praetorians? Only with Katakros, and this is now the default. Stalliarch Lords has the worst mandatory command trait and artefact in the book. To the people who say that 3+ rerolling saves in combat mortek guard were too good, allow me to invite you to play against any competently built competitive army. You'll note that these armies, and pretty much every army, already has the tools to deal with PE OBR, as long as you used a bit of strategy and didn't just literally push your models into them and try to fight them in combat. They are slow, vulnerable to spells, shooting, mortals, screens, teleports, etc. Reverting the change to petrifix would have actually zero impact on the meta for tournaments, and would do nothing but allow for variety in making OBR lists.
By contrast, the Lumineth rules are far, far more problematic. Essentially table-wide archers that spit out mortals on 5's (or 6's if they managed to fail an extremely easy cast) that get to ignore line of sight requirements, meaning there is almost zero counterplay to someone trying to save a support hero. Models that get to pile in 6" in any direction, meaning they can charge, activate two units because RULES, and one of those units gets to pile in out of combat like the old skink rule? The units warscroll could be only entire garbage and they would still be worth it for that kind of mobility and flexibility.
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2 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:
Why not just take the battalion and it is free to retreat and charge anyway, which was already what made the stalliarch command pointless...
That battalion has some positioning requirements, gotta keep the horses within a certain distance of the lord. This one lets you send them off in different directions and maybe recoup some RDP. Not saying its good, but it encourages different playstyles.
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7 minutes ago, Phasteon said:
Are they slow though? We can move +3“ on demand and potentially run and charge..
And even the other legions - i have no problem getting 10-11“ movement with my mortek guard t1 - my deathriders just recently won a game by killing a unit in the right corner of the enemy side then zooming to the left side of MY side killing another unit of gtabbing another objective within 2 turns. They can potentially move 22“ !!
I wouldnt call OBR a fast army, but no way are they slow compared to most armies of the game that completely rely on their base move.
I prefer Harbingers to Crawlers as they can assassinate weak buff characters hiding thx to fly, and they are pretty fast too especially with 3d6 charge
Run and charge in one legion, movement 7 for the guard at the cost of limited resources that we also need to ensure the guard don't fall over in combat. My opinion is from someone who plays in and with tournament players. The army functions because of Crawlers. Without them the gameplan of march up and try to fight is not going to work against anyone who knows what to do.
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4 hours ago, Phasteon said:
That would be awesome, i‘m a bit disappointed by the Mortek Crawlers because of how unreliable their damage is - would have preferred more rend, less damage - degrading rend.
Whats your opinion on them? I know that can win a game by good rolling, but chances are high they do nothing all game and to be fair, there are easier ways of taking out units with bad saves...
What are the easier ways for OBR? Crawlers are literally essential for the army to function because they are a long range big damage threat that forces the enemy to engage our extremely slow, no trick army.
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That is definitely true, but NH has some cool stuff even now, despite being slightly gimmicky. I would say the army has more legs than OBR, just worse warscrolls. I say this because OBR does not have really any sort of complexity or list building variety. The strength of the army comes from the warscrolls of the units. NH, by contrast, is actually a fairly complex army that has a lot of player skill expression and interesting gameplay decisions insofar as what units to deepstrike, and the ability to CP relocate any unit to your general. Despite being a "weaker" army, I think NH has far more potential if they weren't held back by outdated warscrolls and a totally random casino-fight-when-charge-once-a-game-maybe effect.
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I don't think you would actually want that. The army quickly becomes a boogie man and people in this hobby love to complain. I saw it with my OBR when they first released and PE was allowing us to have multiple viable army builds. It is also the case now with Seraphon and KO , which can lead to an unfun play experience for the opponent. Plus, when/if GW does correct it, the most likely correction would be one to horribly overcorrect and leave the army in a bad spot until the next battletome. I personally would much prefer a battle tome that has multiple builds of medium high strength and allows for a good amount of army building variety.
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5 hours ago, Hungey26 said:
Honestly I get where you are coming from but have you considered that we have to take crawlers because everyone else's shooting is also much too strong. AOS could have gone two routes, limit shooting on ALL armies and make it strong (but boring) or actually properly address shooting. Us getting a new archer unit doesnt fix all the super strong ranged spam armies. Having shooting units makes sense but as other have stated there shouldn't be builds removing all your characters and/or a chunk of your army just from shooting T1. Being able to do build like that AND them being the most efficient in the first place is the problem. Also we have other melee units then morteks like stalkers immortis morghasts yet these medium and big constructs don't get played as they are so outshone by the basic mortek spam. The book already has a hard time balancing our melee units internally let alone with more. Don't get me wrong I actually want a whole unit of the other warband guy revealed too, just big 2 handed axe squad sounds awesome but it certainly doesn't give as much variety as a ranged option. I will say I am also a big fan of setting limits on # of units being taken in an army but that's a whole another topic.
I think this slightly misses the mark when it comes to crawlers. We don't have to take them to mitigate shooting, because they functionally do not perform that role. We take them to force the opponent to engage with our army because we have NO tricks, low mobility, and pitiful ranged/melee mortal wound output. For the army to function, we need that huge long range threat to force the opponent into melee with our units. OBR's playstyle is painfully linear simply due to absolute lack of complexity insofar as actual access to teleports, or viable threat alternatives to crawlers and mortek guard. Unless the new archers are sentinel levels of unfun and power, they aren't going to fill the role the crawler has in the army.
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53 minutes ago, Sception said:
More melee units would be redundant, likely resulting in obviously better & worse versions of the same units, a problem that plagues Nighthaunts, for instance. A shooting unit would be something new, something that might allow for more meaningful play variety.
At least part of OBR's concept is that they're re-imagined Tomb Kings. TK had a catapult and ranged units, and while TK ranged builds were at times viable, they didn't dominate the game overall, even at times when shooting in general was overpowered. Nor did they obsolete or crowd out melee TK builds.
So yeah, I welcome OBR archers, if that is indeed what we're seeing. And while we're updating more classic TK concepts, maybe bring back war sphinxes & chariots, with options to make them battle line?
I like OBR as a first pass at the faction. Better imo than many new AoS dactions' initial outings. But they're definitely lacking in build and play variety, and some more distinct battle line options, including archers, would help a ton in that regard,
A skele-ton, even.
I strongly disagree with the assertion that OBR's basic infantry, cav, and stalkers/guard cover all of the possible melee roles such that the only design space left is more shooting in an army that already has to bring 1 or 2 crawlers to even be competitive. I'm not terribly interested in whether or not thematically it makes sense for some skeletons to pick up bows. I am/would be disappointed that the path GW would take is, in my opinion, the least effort and most boring one. Its already annoying that the heavy infantry elite army requires a commitment of at least one maybe two crawlers to function because the army lacks any other tricks or threats apart from march up the field and fight.
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I feel like your argument rests upon warhammer fantasy (bring back armies) and theoretical change grounds, neither of which I can address. In the current state of the game giving even more armies access to shooting is in my opinion only going to worsen the game.
Almost all of the most competitive armies currently use shooting to dominate, and it creates an extremely unfun play experience. Perhaps this could be changed by sweeping rules changes, but without access to what those changes would be, I am categorically against randomly against adding shooting to armies. Especially in the case of OBR because we already have a mandatory shooting tax to even be remotely competitive in the form of crawlers.
At best, a new shooting unit replaces the mandatory crawler tax, but I would much prefer more varied melee units to this heavy infantry army, in a way that enables builds that do not require shooting to function.
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The more shooting centric the game becomes, the closer it gets to 40k and a general unfun experience. Adding shooting to every army because its "realistic" in a war game is going to make the game worse.
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55 minutes ago, SilverJelly said:
It most definitely is. I just hope it's a unit release and not just the Warband that has been rumored.
I don't. Another army gaining access to unnecessary shooting is not the direction that I want AoS or OBR to be going. We already have mandatory crawlers.
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4 hours ago, Sception said:
Eh. The 2 extra rdp and extra range on the +1 attack CA are pretty worthwhile, imo. And on top of that, the Liege himself is a competant combatant with an actual movement speed, almost equal to a deathrider unit in himself. Even if you're running Katakros, I'd still consider the liege to be a staple unit. The harvester... I love the model and the concept, but with as much shooting as is going around these days, I'm just not convinced that the harvester will do more for you than 10 more morteks for 70 less points.
Not sure what you mean by the extra range, both have wholly w/in 12. Unless you just mean having another use case of it. Also even in 2k you are hard pressed to use more than 5 RDP a round, and having extra is just a waste. The harvester was suggested as it is exactly the 200 points that the liege kav fills, and provided some variety. The better choice would probably just be another crawler, but some people probably wouldn't find that as interesting. Alternatively, a chicken legs would also simply be better to be at 6 RDP and provide double casting/dispelling and buffs.
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54 minutes ago, Nasrod said:
OBR has a heavy slant toward resilience and winning through attrition, with powerful synergy bonuses on top of high raw stats in exchange for low movement, niche magic, and a devastating weakness to the double turn.
Unfortunately, the army has a few major flaws in terms of player enjoyment; as an elite force capable of regeneration, the army pays for it in points per wound. Mortek Guard are still one of, if not the best battleline in the game, but every other option is brutally expensive. Coupled with the fact that all 3 build paths seem to eat up 900 points with no battleline accounted for, and, well...lists are going to look very samey.
Kavalos Deathriders are rarely enough to pose a threat to the opponent's elite forces by themselves, but are our "cheap skirmisher." Their true stength lies in our high base stats making them famtastic at throwing down with the enemy's own skirmishers.
Katakros is the most popular of the leaders; he makes the entire army more forgiving to play, is powerful, and offers some genuine flexibility in unit choices while allowing a flood of RDP.
Arkhan is 2nd most popular, but in most metas with powerful indirect fire, you will need to bring along a taxing unit of Immortis Guard to ensure he isn't shot off the table round 1. Our biggest weakness is mortal wound spam, which Arkhan can circumvent. Definitely usable, but I am not familiar with exact builds.
Nagash used to see some use but since losing the +2 in Petrifex Elite he has fallen out of favor.
The tried and true "core" to the most standard build would be:
Mortis Praetorians
Katakros - 500
Liege Kavalos - 200
Mortek Guard x 20 - 260
Mortek Guard x 20 - 260
Kavalos Deathrider x 5 - 180
Crawler - 200
1500/2000
You won't earn new friends anytime soon with this list, but it offers a nice spread of everything the army is capable of and conveniently slots down to 1000 points by removing Katakros. Taking it to 2000 points is up to you, but I would almost assuredly take a 2nd Crawler and at that point a Mortisan Soulshaper to help limit the RNG of Crawlers is also appealing.
This list looks good, but I would probably ditch the Kavalos as Big K already gives you a ton of RDP and the extra liege is unnecessary. You would likely be better off with a harvester or a caster in the base list.
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That's disappointing. I was hoping OBR's range would be extended similarly to the huge Lumineth range. I guess there are plenty of armies that would want the treatment LRL are getting though.
Soulblight Gravelords News, Rumours and Speculation
in Death
Posted
Bats and rats not getting an aos warscroll. I read that from the official aos Facebook page as a comment on one of the endless threads about cursed city.