KingKull
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Posts posted by KingKull
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2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
Thx for the input!
I might ditch the baron and add two more lances for a start. The witch hunter has to go sadly (those are so cool!)
rules question: Can a Prophetess use her ability ‚Shield of the Lady‘ when she‘s part of a men-at-arms unit that has one model with a chivalrous vow joined to it?
Thank you for not minding it! (My closest wargaming friend is allergic to outside advice so I'm always wary when giving it haha!)
As I understand the Shield of the Lady ability, the unit itself needs to have a knightly vow (that's how it's worded, at least).
As for your list, I'd consider ditching the lvl 1 (not worth it imo, especially when facing lvl 3-4s) and the cannon unless it's a heart choice you're willingly taking (same with the treb). The only use I see for warmachines now is making the enemy want to come to you (and even then only in the absence of other tools that do it better), which isn't a problem for Brets given their speed.
For the duke, I personally would never leave home without Sirenne's locket so that things like dying at the hands of a Sphinx's killing blow just don't happen, also possibly Gromril great helm. If you're taking the Virtue of Knightly temper, I'd also ditch the ogre blade and just go for the lance (or perhaps sword of heroes if you're dead set on monster hunting).
Did the squires prove to be useful in any way? I still haven't tried playing with them.
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3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
Updated the post.
I usually play a mix of narrative, looking good on the table and efficiency.
I actually played a list very similar to your opponent's in the game where the Brets absolutely wrecked me (game was 1500 though, and my Ushabti didn't have bows).
For Brets, I think that two lances is far too little to be able to pressure the opponent in any meaningful way, and 3-man darts of GK are too good not to be taken.
Btw I get what you're saying about list building, as I too refuse to play armies that don't look like, well, armies (which is why I was put off Sigmar for a long while btw), but yours definitely has room for improvement, possibly even within said parameters.
But yeah, I'd definitely say his list was a lot more optimized than yours. Add those spicy rolls and gak mission deployment to the mix, and I can see why it could've felt frustrating.
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42 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:
Nope, we simply played rules wrong which warped the game + insane rolls (he always rolls absurdly) combined with some super undercosted units which are bonkers (it’s not fun to have 3+ mortal wound and monster slayer threats every game, but that’s the models he has and they’re too Point efficient to ditch them)
His rolls, you don’t know the half of it. It’s a constant thing and it’s not his dice.
I don't think anything in TK is undercosted (scorps are good, but not fanatic level tbh), but yeah, some people are just born lucky. Could you share the lists used on both sides?
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19 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
Had a game vs Tomb Kings.
Edit:
- We played 2 rules wrong: Remains in play spells being un-dispellable (my opponent was really sure and I couldn’t find the rule)
- Tomb Scorpions initiative checks
The following is a slightly funny rant
/Rant start
Tbh TK need a points decrease, everything doesn’t pay for its special rules, it would just be consequential.
Turn two: 5 skirmishers shot my lv1 mage because he always hits with 70% of his 5+ shots (not kidding EVERYTIME) ;/
Hitting on 5s is just bad. Look at all those other humans hitting on 6s or 7s after moving and being out of range and possibly having to shoot into cover. Paying more points for always hitting on 5s wouldn’t make any sense then.
The game was a draw (990:960 for me) and was fun in the last two turns. My peasants did nothing. That, 7 point upgrade for the Tomb Scorpion ability (when it comes out of the sand a unit has to make an initiative check) killed 15/20. Generally wiping 50% of an Initiative 3 unit on average is too weak and doesn’t befit the noble tomb kings. Additionally 7 points are outrageously much for that ability, I mean it should reduce the points and be triggerable every movement phase, otherwise it’s unplayable? Those 82 TS points don’t pay for themselves, you know.
The other peasant unit was charged, failed terror and ran off the board. The altar debuffed my entire army for the whole game because -1 to hit within 18“ is fine. Without this buff TK would not stand a chance even vs the empire, they desperately need it. The range should be 36“ and it should be an autocast. 🙃
My duke killed some chaff and the Ushabti. My other hero (Baron) killed a giant, the Pegasus knights crumbled a tomb scorpion, then the Baron, equipped to kill monsters, failed to hit the Sphinx for two turns and was finally beheaded by the Sphinx costing 30% less than the baron and doing 50% more, justified! When rolling a street on its attacks the Sphinx should draw the Exodia and win the game! Killing Blowing the Game, s*ckers! That‘d just be fair for the absurd premium of 195pts. The points are almost fine for a healable, super tough, flying, trampling murder-statue. I‘d argue it should go down to 80 points like it‘s clack-a-di-clack brother in snappy-ness the Tomb Scorpion.
On a different note: Hey, -1 to hit within a 36“ diameter is worthless, right!?Sphinx was healed constantly (it lost about 12 wounds which were healed, 2 wounds of healing per mage, thx mortuary cult). It’s fine to have a metric ton of rules while not paying for them
. The Tomb Kings Propably had already paid for them special rules back when they were alive. That’s what I call planning ahead! We should get investment tips from them!
It‘s also important that tough units can’t die - ultimately we‘re no noobs here, right!?
My whole army did nothing except for 6 models. The rest of my force saw the enemy and decided they were outclassed, resulting in achieving nothing. Why would they? it’s just super expensive knights who despite their size skipped gym day, every day, that’s why having S4 and more than one attack is not an option. Also it’s about the quality of attacks, not the quantity, right? That‘s why they went for low attacks with mediocre quality.
So my two heroes did something and one time my pegasi did something after being reduced to 1 by that underpowered and useless Scorpion (ofc snapping claws are the pinnacle of murder, that’s why killing blow of both kinds is justified. Why would a 6 meter club have killing blow, it can‘t click-a-di-click snap right? A magical weapon granting monstrous killing blow costs 50+ points, so it’s just fair the scorpion costs 75 points, I mean, who pays for special rules these days, right?). And why should three elite knights costing 55+ points each have an easy time with the scorpion, he has Chitin Claws Coral, Chitin Claws!!
The baron failed heroically (fOr zE LaEdyY - not hitting, for the lady?). In the last turn the duke slew the Sphinx (ogre blade to the face almost didn’t kill her, because he has no click-a-di-click snapping chitin claw at the tip of his blade!). The turn before he missed all but one attack (yup, -1 to hit aura is fine, adding an additional save of 6+ is just fair) failed to finish the ushabti and in turn couldn’t charge his Hierophant in my turn. His Flying carpet hierophant then stylishly flew away, humming a song of a certain Disney movie, out of range forever, behind his block of 28 Skeletons
(which my whole army would’ve had issues to kill because cracking a whip apparently makes skeletons very hateful and, just to do the cracki-di-crack justice it also doubles their attacks - don’t tell the empire that that’s how you boost your troops or they’ll get ideas!)
I am not angry, just sad. There’s too much nonsense going on with that army. The best I can do is a draw and that already takes all my strength. It’s not an uphill battle it’s trying to build 20 dire wolves wearing mittens, not using the manual.
/rant end
That's a lot of bitterness right there. I don't know what kind of list you played against, but I got absolutely wrecked by my regular opponent's Brets in the first game with TK I played recently (after winning against him consistently with dwarfs).
From my experience so far (both practical and theoretical), TK are nowhere near as oppressive as some armies out there (bar the dragon, which you didn't face).
Sure, they may have the tools to kinda (emphasis on kinda) deal with most stuff out there (as opposed to relatively one-trick-pony (no pun intended) Brets), but most of that stuff is tame and/or has real vulnerabilities/downsides.
It may be a combo of bad dice rolls (or your opponent's good ones) and bad deployment?
Edit: I don't know what lists were being used, but it sounds like your opponent was more competitively oriented than you are (in list building and actual gameplay) on top of luck.
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8 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:
@Ogregut sadly the list would not work. Due to the rules for issuing a challenge he‘d pick off the dragons one by one.
You need to charge something else along with dragons - ie dark riders with a champion to accept challenges
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I didn't see any talk about this. Sounds interesting (and tragical at the same time).
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10 hours ago, Ogregut said:
What armies are people working on?
Anyone else dug out some old projects or found dusty boxes from yesteryear?
Or even printed a new army.
Lets see what's cooking on people's hobby tables!
Printed Highlands dwarfs & Brets, painting the former as I wait for the Bret launch box to get the book & peasants.
I'm seriously considering beginning a third army, and I'm split between Ogres, TK & WoC.
As other people have noticed on the internet, painting comparably less detailed R&F models (compared to contemporary 40k & AoS units) did wonders to my painting motivation
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10 hours ago, Hollow said:
It is disingenuous to say that WFB is 40 years old. It's been completely unsupported for the last decade! Also, the Games Workshop of the 80's, 90's and 00's was completely different to the one of the last 10 years. The GW of the last 10 years has so many more staff, designers and resources.
It's a deliberate design decision that GW has made regarding what to focus on in AoS. (Due to mark-ups amongst other things) I don't even think that AoS should have as many infantry options as ToW, I just feel many of the AoS factions feel a little sparse when they only have a single 10-man infantry unit and a single 5-man (special) infantry unit.
Hopefully, we will see infantry choices bulked out through upcoming Warcry Releases. (Like the recently announced Pyre and Blood) and new infantry/cavalry options in 4th.
To add to this, AoS could have had fewer armies with larger model ranges. I'm not talking about whether this works for the business side of things (I don't know); but I'm damn sure I would've preferred that.
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18 hours ago, Sception said:
Tomb Kings Mortuary Cult (out of Arcane Journal: Tomb Kings)
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210 - High Liche Priest, Level 4, Lore of Necromancy,
Warding Splint*, Earthing Rod
- 163 - 23 Skeleton Warriors, light armor, spears, shields, nehekharan phalanx, full command
- 70 - 14 Skeleton Skirmishers, warbows
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147 - 3 Ushabti, greatbows
- 200 - Necrosphinx, envenomed sting
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75 - Tomb Scorpion, ambushers
- 135 - Casket of Souls
*option from Arcane Journal: Tomb Kings
Characters.......210 points - 21%
Core...................380 points - 38%
Special..............275 points - 27.5%
Rare...................135 points - 13.5%
Total................1000 pointsDoes this forum still have spoiler blocks? Didn't there used to be an eyeball icon for that? I used it in my previous post, but it's not there now... I'm going to try and sblock the in depth explanation and example tomb kings army building thoughts, if it doesn't work I apologize for the overly long post.
EDIT: there it is, the option just disappears if I'm not zoomed far enough out I guess.
I went with mortuary cult because it allows my heirophant to also be my general, which bypasses the usual requirement to field both a monarch and a priest in the same army, which in turn makes it easier to afford the level four at 1000 points. A level 4 wizard is highly effective at shutting down bound spells and regular spells cast by lower level support wizards, plus the higher caster level on a lich priest especially makes him more effective at healing units as well. The Warding Splint from the arcane journal is, imo, mandatory for your heirophant, making them much tougher with 5+ armor and ward saves on top of their 5+ regen, without impacting casting ability. Earthing rod is very cheap and provides some protection from an unlucky miscast. I went with necromancy for theme (my tomb kings are loyal to the true lord of Nehekhara, the Great Necromancer), but there's some great spells in there. The -2 leadership hex is especially nasty if you can pull it off at a critical moment, and the spell that give himself and his unit Terror is strong enough that you might consider leaving him in the spears when it's time for combat instead of dropping back behind them. For your chosen spell, I love Incantation of the Desert Sind to help with the army's low mobility. At level four and with the casket nearby you're very likely to get it off at the 10+ casting value to affect every unit in his command range.
One reasonably large block of skeleton warriors gives me something to take a charge with. They won't beat anything actually competent in combat, but they'll rarely evaporate in a single turn, letting you set up flank charges. I'll generally start the priest in this unit for a nice field of view, but shift him out if the skeletons are likely to be charged in the next turn, or if I'm going to move them out of the casket's 12" bubble of +1 to cast that turn - especially if the opponent has a level 4 dispeller. Nehekharan phalanx is great to keep them from getting pushed back, making it easier to judge how your supporting units should be positioned.
Mortuary Cult Allows me a single unit of Ushabti as a core choice, so I took a minimum squad with Greatbows to provide some additional ranged support (with S6, AP-1, and Multiple Wounds they can soften up large monster targets or threaten to take small monsters like giant eagles right off the table) that can also provide a bit of counter-punch with a flank charge in support of the main skeleton block - even armed with greatbows they've still got a decent number of S4 melee attacks with AP-1 for the kopesh rule). In a normal tomb kings list, I'd take a trio of skeleton chariots with command to fill more or less the same role (weaker shooting but stronger melee punch on the charge) at exactly the same points.
Rounding out Core with some Skeleton Skirmishers. This is a versatile unit with a handful of different potential uses. With warbows they provide some light shooting support to chase off enemy screens, threaten eagles, & the like. Skirmish formation really helps here with 360degree vision and the ability to space them out so more can shoot. With vanguard (and chariot runners if you take chariots instead of ushabti) they can run ahead of your units to screen them from shooting if your opponent is running a lot of that. Alternatively, they can hang out behind your lines to shield the casket from ambushers, or to provide a bunker that the wizard can fall back to before combat if it isn't safe to be outside of a unit due to enemy snipers (like that wood elf hero) or war machines. If the scenario needs a unit to go stand on an objective they can also be sent to do that without sacrificing the main battle line units. You can even pay extra for ambushers (I didn't have the points spare in this list) for additional opportunities. Granted they lack a bit of the maneuverability you'd generally expect from skirmishers due to the undead's inability to march, but Incantation of the Desert Wind can make up for that. Because they can do so many different things, I try not to commit to a particular use in my battle plan, and instead decide what I need them to do during deployment.
Mortuary Cult lets me take a single Necrosphinx as a special unit, so of course I do that. The model is fantastic, one of those iconic, faction-selling models. Gameplay wise, it's fast (for tomb kings anyway) with fly speed 9 and swift strider, Terror potentially forces units to flee without even engaging them and if they do hold their nerve lowers their leadership if they lose combat, which is amazing. It's pretty tough with six Toughness 6 wounds plus heavy armor and 5+ regeneration (doesn't sound like a lot if you're coming from age of sigmar, and a pair of great cannons will admittedly chew through it pretty fast if you let them draw line of sight, but small arms fire & non-great-weapon melee units will have a real hard time scratching it) and hits fairly hard with 5 Ws4 S5 Ap-1 attacks with killing blow, plus one extra strength 10 AP-4 attack with monster slayer, plus d3+2 stomp attacks. The stinger as a cheap upgrade looks cool and lets it trade one of its normal attacks for a slightly weaker attack but with strikes first, which seems particularly useful for picking out unit champions. A necrosphinx isn't going to blend through elite anvils on its own, but it can put a significant hurt on most targets and threaten to outright kill anything. Initiative 1, but again most units have a hard time hurting it, and with M9 flying you should be able to avoid units that will just beat it. The soul reaper rule for re-roll 1s to hit against a chosen enemy character plus killing blow and that single attack with monster slayer as well means even the most powerful dragon lords in the game costing twice or even 3 times its points will likely shy away from it., but don't be fooled. Despite all that, it's really not on the level of dragon riding lords. At at 200 points though it's quite effective. Generally the idea is to position this thing for a flank charge against anything that charges the main spearleton block, but it's also quite happy to run out on its own if there's a weak spot in the opponent's line that isn't hard enough to soak its attacks or choppy enough to threaten it.
In a normal Tomb Kings list Necrosphinxes are rare and wouldn't fit in the list with the Casket at this points level, so instead I'd run a Warsphinx for around the same points depending on options. Similar effectiveness at the main role of providing melee support to the spearleton block, it trades the ability to go out hunting on its own with fly 9 and swiftstrider for the option to take a decent breath weapon to soften up enemy units that get too close before combat.
The one thing I will say after my first game is that in smaller games especially, depending on what units they take, your opponent just might not have the tools to fight a big monster of any sort. Check with your opponent before the game and have an alternative option in mind in case it would make for a poor play experience. By 1500 points though I'd say if your opponent can't handle a 5 or 6 wound monster that's on them. 😛
The Tomb Scorpion is there because Mortuary Cult are required to take one per 1k points, so it's obligatory. That said, for 75 points it's reasonably tough and packs a bit of a sting (har har). With ambushers it can show up from board edges to hunt war machines & shooty support units, or the priest can call it from beneath the sands to support the spearleton block or position it like you might with a giant eagle to block and redirect a charge that the skeleton block might not want to take head on. So there's a fair bit of utility to it and I don't at all feel bad about having to take one, even though I probably wouldn't have spent the points on it in a normal tomb kings list, certainly not in a smaller list like this.
Finally the Casket of Souls is another of those faction-defining classic models that I just can't leave home without, so I'd field it no matter what it did in game. Thankfully it's amazing anyway, with a 12" bubble of +1 to casting rolls (including bound spells but not including its own bound spells), helping my level 4 wizard push spells through even against other level 4s. Even more significantly, it has two bound spells cast at +3, the most important one being Light of Protection, an 18" range remains in play bubble granting all of your units within range a 6+ ward and imposing a -1 to hit penalty on any attacks made against them. This is astoundingly good if your opponent fails to stop it, and toes a long way towards making up for the faction's relatively lacking armor saves. The casket also has a pretty strong magic missile which you typically don't want to cast since it shuts off Light of Protection if it's up, but it's nice to have in case Light of Protection failed to cast or got dispelled. The main drawback of the casket is that it's completely immobile - wherever you put it, there it stays for the whole game, so you may find yourself forced to move out of the 12" casting buff range or even the 18" light of protection range, particularly with your flank units or if you're fighting a castling/turtling shooty army.
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And that's everything I'm currently running in my standard list at 1,000 points, along with the reasoning behind it. That said, there are some other important tools in the Tomb Kings arsenal worth mentioning, even though I didn't take them here.
Battle Standard Bearer: tomb herald for normal or royal host armies, level 1-2 lich priests for mortuary cult, either way its the banner that's most important. These reduce wounds from crumbling for nearby units that fail combat, and that's fine and good, but the big part is that re-roll for leadership tests. With an undead army - unbreakable and immune to psychology - you might think that doesn't matter so much, but lots of things require leadership tests. Lich priest healing and calling units from beneath the sands, necrotect and tomb king buffs, these all require leadership tests to trigger. You can take a charge and be in a perfect position to heal up and countercharge only to fail your critical healing checks and suddenly be in a tough spot. At 1000 points you might not be able to fit one, but by 2,000 points imo the BSB is mandatory, at least for a typical battle line type army.
Tomb Kings/Princes: one of these is required to be your general in a normal or royal host TK army, and even in a mortuary cult a tomb prince is worth taking as they're pretty tough and can hit reasonably hard. Put one of these in the front of a Skeleton or especially tomb guard unit and suddenly they're not just taking charges & maybe not crumbling, they can actually win some fights against weaker units, or hold out much longer against stronger ones, especially with a nearby priest to provide some healing. On top of being reasonably competent melee fighters, kings and princes can also buff the movement, weapons skill, or initiative of their unit, which can be a big deal. The one issue with kings and princes is a relative lack of mundane armor, so you'll want to invest your magic item allotment there. These guys can also ride chariots to run with them, and the kings can ride a bone dragon or warsphinx to become a big scary monster lord. All solid options, though I prefer to use them to add some punch to your infantry battle line. That said, there's something to be said for Tomb Kings monster spam. "matched play" limits armies to a mere 3 great cannons, and while that'll put down one monster easily it'll have trouble chewing through a king on a sphinx or dragon with a 4+ ward AND two war sphinxes AND a necrosphinx, with an obligatory heirophant holding the backfield with a bunch of archers and a casket.
Necrotect: these are infantry support heroes who buff the melee ability of the unit they're in. Kind of wasted in skeletons that don't hit so hard even with extra attacks and hatred, but a tomb guard unit becomes quite dangerous. With only a couple wounds and light armor the Necrotect is pretty fragile though, so again you'll want to invest in magic armor, and that in turn can cause conflicts with your fighty heroes. Especially Princes and Heralds, as they all really want the armor of silvered steel. Still, if you can work it into the list, a big block of tomb guard six or seven wide with a necrotect next to a 5x5 block of spearletons with a tomb king (aesthetically and thematically you'd prefer to put the king with the guard and the tect with the skeletons, but whatever) is a very solid core to a battle line.
Tomb Guard: Mortuary Cult can't take tomb guard, but these guys are tougher and hit harder than skeletons (given the kopesh rule I wouldn't bother with halberds, unless you just like them aesthetically), so I'd prefer to anchor my line with these in royal host and normal Tomb Kings armies, especially when you get up to normal game sizes.
Chariots: units of light chariots are an iconic, even faction defining unit for tomb kings. You can take em big and put heroes in them, and they can do well that way, but you end up with a huge and somewhat unwieldy frontage which can get them charged by multiple enemy units at once, which they really aren't tough enough to take, and that fragility plus lack of impact when they're not charging has me skeptical of using them as your big central battleline unit (though the royal host's tomb guard chariots might be able to pull that off). For regular chariots, I like to keep them in units of three on the flanks for 150 points, able to chase off light cavalry or skirmishing units that might otherwise encircle your battleline, or wheel inward to threaten flank charges on anything that gets stuck in with your skeletons or tomb guard. At first impression I'm not convinced that they're amazing, but they are iconic and thematically faction defining, so I feel like you really should try to fit some in if you're able to.
Skeletal Horse Archers: The humble horse archer, sadly probably the single worst looking unit in the entire tomb kings line, is arguably the best core unit available to the faction. Seriously, these should probably take up special points they're so good. Take every good thing I said about the versatility of the skeletal skirmishers, then double their movement and give them reserve move all the time without relying on a spell (and proximity to that spellcaster). Sure they cost twice as much per model, so you get half as many shots and wounds per point, but I cannot stress enough how good the movement is. They're fantastic as throw away screens, they're excellent harassment units to pick at lightly armored enemy shooting units then reserve move back behind a building to avoid return fire, they can hunt down lone stragglers of almost-but-not-quite-killed units (that enemy unit reduced to a single model that went and hid behind some terrain is still worth 75% of its starting points cost - ride your horsemen around the corner and shoot it!), and they're an excellent, maybe even the best, behind-the-lines bunker to shelter your heirophant in. The only problem is the terrible models (both for the horse archers themselves and the only available first party cavalry lich priest, which I can't believe they have the gall to charge us$45 for on made to order) - which are enough to stop me from fielding them altogether, though I will work on some substitute models when and if black knights are ever back in stock. If you don't mind the models so much, or play in a store that allows third party models (check out Lost Kingdom Miniature's Khnum Riders plus Neftari the Priestess or Seb, Headless Sorcerer) then I'd absolutely recommend at least one minimum unit of these per thousand points, and/or a larger unit of 8 to 10 as a bunker for your heirophant. For command get the champion if you can spare the points or are bunkering a liche priest in them, but don't take the standard or musician. You won't win or even tie melee combats with them regardless, and the banner especially is just offering free victory points to your opponent.
Screaming Skull Catapults: Tomb Kings have some fantastic rare units. I've already sung the praises of both necrosphinxes and caskets of souls, but do not overlook the humble bonapult. Table spanning range, indirect fire, and fairly significant damage on the center hole - forcing wizards to actually join units instead of just skirting around at their edges and potentially smashing enemy war machines that threaten your sphinxes & chariots. Additionally, units that take ANY unsaved wounds from an ssc must take a panic test, which can chase unlucky units off the field before the game's even properly started. All of that doesn't even touch on the main thing you take this unit for - With the 'skulls of the enemy' upgrade any enemy units near where the template lands - even if it hits nothing at all - suffer an automatic -1 leadership penalty that lasts all the way until your next turn. This is HUGE. Many hero abilities only work on successful leadership tests, the penalty applies to terror, fear, and panic tests (including those caused by the ssc itself), and it stacks with other penalties to leadership. With the necromancy hex, terror, and an ssc penalty you could potentially be forcing break tests for failed combat on -4. At 125 points with the heads of the foe, the screaming skull catapult is a steal, and only sharp competition for points (particularly rare points for a normal tomb kings army - you can't take a catapult with the heads of the foe and a casket at 1k points in normal tomb kings) keeps it out of my 1000 points lists. At 2k I'd say at least one ssc is mandatory, and I'd honestly try to field two of them.
They're other stuff available - snake riders are hard hitting monstrous cav, ushabti with warblades are more fragile than they look but hit like a truck so they're a great support/flanking unit for your battleline, stalkers are a neat shooty/utility unit that can strip wounds off of slow, heavily armored threats that can otherwise tank and outfight most of your units, tomb swarms I don't think are great in normal lists but in mortuary cult can be used as a battery of spare wounds to power up your spellcasting, carrion are a flying melee screen to block or redirect charges or go after shooty support units to shut them up for a turn or two. Lots of niche utility stuff that you can pull out if you find your list needs something specific.
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Putting it together:
So yeah, lots of units available, but how do you put it all together? There are different builds you can go for (monster spam, chariot rush), but I like a classic infantry battleline. That just looks like an 'army' to me, which is what I want in a rank & flank game. So as an example thought experiment, let's throw together a basic tomb kings battleline style 2,000 point amry, using the default army list from ravening hordes.
We need a solid battleline that can at least take a charge, if not also fight back, so I'll start with a infantry blocks of 20+ Skeleton Warriors (5 wide) or tomb guard (6 or 7 wide) - at least one such block per thousand points. Give them full command, upgrade as many of these units as possible to nehekharan phalanx if you can afford that, and maybe magic banners if you end up with even more spare points. Lets say 24 (5x5 with a character on) spearletons with light armor, command, phalanx for 169, plus 23 sword guard (6x4 with a character), command, phalanx for 282, for 451 points total so far.
Next I grab the casket - the model is iconic and the buff is faction defining, especially for this sort of battleline type army. I'll deploy it as far forward as possible (or back a few inches if I think I'll need to screen against shooting). 135 for the casket brings us up to 586.
Next I'll grab a bunker for my heirophant - a unit that can live behind my front line that my heirophant and any other wizards I take can drop back to before the main battle line gets stuck in. I really like skeletal skirmishers or horsemen for this, but I don't like the horseman or mounted liche priest models, so lets say 20 skirmishers for another 100 points, bringing us up to 686, and meeting our minimum core requirement at 551 core, and we can drop up to half of this squad if we need to shave points. If we end up not needing the bunker (say the opponent has no ambushers and no shooting capable of targeting lone characters near units) then these are still useful as ranged support, screens, etc.
So we've got our core battleline, the casket, and a character bunker, time to add heroes. Assuming a normal tomb kings list we'll need /at least/ a tomb prince or king to be the general and a lich priest or high lich priest as the heirophant, plus I consider a BSB pretty obligatory. Starting with the heirophant, I really want a level four, and I really want the warding splint to protect them, so that's 205 points already. A king with heavy armor, shield, and royal mantle (for a 3+ save plus my will be done out to 6") is 202 points - strong enough with the default khopesh, but if we have spare points we can buy him a magic weapon. Herald BSB with silvered steel is 125. That's 532 points in characters, which is a lot. We might have to cut the king down to a prince later, which will cause item conflicts with the herald (prince has light armor instead of the king's heavy, which means only 4+ save with the mantle, so he'd want to steal the heralds silver steel instead). We'll see.
We're up to 1218, and now I want to add some hammer units to countercharge in support of our battleline units. Chariots are ok at this, and iconic for the faction, so we'll start with 3 chariots with full command for 147 points, and on the other flank lets grab another iconic unit (and another impressive, faction defining model), a war sphinx. With full upgrades thats 220 points, bringing us up to 367 points special and 1585 points total.
We're closing in on points now, but we've got a solid battleline with 2 anvils with characters in and 2 counter-punchunits, plus a level 4 wizard with a bunker to drop back to, and of course the casket. That's a nice solid army that should stand up well in a straight fight with another equivalent battleline, now lets grab some utility stuff. A couple screaming skull catapults with the heads of the foe is 250, two units of 5 horse archers is 110, and now we're up to 1945. With 55 points left we can give the tomb king an talisman of protection and the Tomb Guard the War Banner. And since we didn't drop any skirmishers, lets split them into 2 units of 10 so we can do more stuff with them, and finally drop the wasphinx's envenomed sting to buy the heirophant an earthing rod for some minimal protection against the worst miscast results.
The finished army looks like this:
- General: Tomb King, hand weapon (khopesh), shield, heavy armor, royal mantle, talisman of protection
- Heirophant: High Liche Priest, level 4, necromancy, warding splint, earthing rod
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Battle Standard Bearer: Tomb Herald, hand weapon (khopesh), armor of silvered steel
- 23 Tomb Guard, hand weapons (khopesh), light armor, shields, nehekharan phalanx, full command, war banner
- 24 Skeleton Warriors, spears, light armor, shields, nehekharan phalanx, full command
- 10 Skeleton Skirmishers, warbows
- 10 Skeleton Skirmishers, warbows
- 5 Skeleton Horse Archers
- 5 Skeleton Horse Archers
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3 Skeleton Chariots, full command
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Khemrian Warsphinx, 4 tomb guard crew, fiery breath
- Casket of Souls
- Screaming Skull Catapult, heads of the foe
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Screaming Skull Catapult, heads of the foe
- 2000 points on the nose, if I didn't make a mistake in the arithmetic
Is that a perfect list? Not really. It's lacking magic attacks to deal with ethereal foes, and can't project a lot of damage to threaten enemy big monsters - especially fast flying ones, outside of the catapults which are fairly unreliable for that purpose due to scatter. On a purely aesthetic level, the list is lacking ushabti, which are another iconic unit that you really want to see in a Tomb Kings army - and 2x3 with greatbows would help threaten monsters at range. but you'd have to find around 300 points to fit that.
The list is also lacking ambushers to threaten enemy backfield war machines, and the only monster in it is a slower, non-flying unit that operates as part of the battleline, which gives enemy cannons an easy target to aim for. I could exchange the warsphinx for a faster necrosphinx, but that would push me over the rare allowance, forcing me to drop one of the catapults. Between the two units of horse archers and two units of skeleton skirmishers I may also have gone overboard on screen/harassment units, but the former wood elf in me says those units are too useful to pass up.
All in all though I think that's pretty solid as a example of the kind of stuff I'm thinking about when putting together a basic tomb kings army, and the sort of list those thoughts will tend to produce. At least when I'm not doing something weird like Chariot or Monster spam.
This writeup is absolute gold, and I can't thank you enough for it. Maybe save it in a pdf format and release it into the wild? I'm sure many more people would be extremely grateful to read something like this.
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210 - High Liche Priest, Level 4, Lore of Necromancy,
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57 minutes ago, Public Universal Duardin said:
So, we know what retro models GW is bringing out from the mothballs for Orcs and Goblins. What is on your wishlist regarding the other factions? Any old sculpts you'd like to see as MTO?
This trio of dwarf thanes
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6 hours ago, Sception said:
Played my first game of Old World.
Major victory for the Tomb Kings, but luck was on my side (one of the enemy's infantry blocks failed a terror test & fled off the board, and the necrosphinx made two max distance charges). My army also turned out to be a bit over-tuned.
I ran my current default 'cram in as many cool models as possible' Mortuary Cult army: lv4 liche, spearleton block, bowleton skirmishers, 3 bowshabti, scorpion, necrosphinx, casket. The Empire player had two core melee infanty blocks (spears & halberds), two core ranged support units (handguns & crossbows), and a bunch of points in heroes (lv2 wizard, two war priests, fighty lord). no cannons, no organ guns, no monsters, no heavy cav, no lv4 wizard, no greatswords.
In retrospect I should have recognized the mismatch during deployment, reduced the lich lord to lv3, and dropped the necrosphinx entirely. I could have filled the points with additional heroes & some warblade ushabti I had in my box. That would have made for more of a game, as the lv4 was kind of oppressive against only an lv2, and he just didn't have an answer to the sphinx. But it was fun regardless. Small games can often end up lopsided like that & we were both still new & getting a handle on the game, so no hard feelings I think.
Some key things I forgot during the game that I need to try and remember going forward: fear (never once made him roll for it), and the -1 to hit from light of protection (ie, the most important part of that spell, and the entire casket).
Could you share your entire list please? I'm looking at getting into tomb kings, but for the life of me can't get around the faction.
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To anyone who's taken the time to read the rules in a more detailed manner: can Dwarf units charge with the conveyance rune from the Anvil of Doom or not?
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7 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:
Slightly worried that the Exile's vow is Knight's vow +1 (or rather +3). Wait and see the full picture, I guess.
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18 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:
While I agree a world where nothing is black or white and everything is in greys is the most interesting setting for us (adults), I think the approach followed with Goods vs Bads is easier for younger ppl, and maybe that's where it is coming from. Especially when nowadays all that is looked for is quick stuff without the need to go deeper into something to understand it.
Said that, it feels a bit weird if that has been the approach since TOW doesn't feel welcome to newer generations at all, IMO. From its ranks gameplay and the old sculpts. Feels like one approach or the other is clashing.I don't know. To me, it feels more like what adult salespeople think kids want rather than what kids really want, but maybe I'm wrong. In my experience, kids fall for what looks cool to them first and foremost, without bothering much with the goodness or evil of said things.
On a personal note, I remember being delighted by discovering that protagonists from "evil-looking" factions in various Heroes of Might and Magic IV scenarios and campaigns had very human (and sometimes even noble) motivations when I played that game as a little kid.
I absolutely agree with the second part.
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Another final note since I already took the bait: if Settra was evil, so were Alexander the Great, Ramses II and Julius Caesar (and again, a case could be made for that as well, but it would largely depend on the position one is commenting from).
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1 hour ago, Ejecutor said:
Imo it is easier to comprehend for those that are totally outside warhammer.
To play the devil's advocate here, it's not any easier to comprehend than just "here's a bunch of factions, each has distinct reasons to fight the others, now read on to discover them."
Chaos and (contagious) necromancy (so not Tomb Kings), being the two existential threats to the whole world, would arguably be in a category of their own which is beyond moral "evil" (regardless of the morality system one is starting from) and more in the "purge immediately upon sight" territory.
Even then, the idea of evil and morals in general (much like in real life) largely depends on one's viewpoint and culture - the "Were of Fjirgard" vignette from the 6th edition Hordes of Chaos book comes to mind, in which the wives and daughters of Norscan warriors who succumbed to spawndom of sorts still look after them and regularly bring food to the caves they now reside in.
In short, I always preferred the kind of setting where it's just a free-for-all driven by "us vs them" rather than good vs evil, and I'm not even sure if I'm in the minority here (factoring in people who are fine with both takes).
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For the life of me, I don't understand why they are so adamant about the "good" and "evil" camps.
I'm not particularly upset about it as we can all ignore the artificial division if we want to, but I just don't see why it matters so much, either lore-wise or meta-marketing wise.
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5 minutes ago, Freypal said:
I'm wondering how other people are planning to balance AoS and ToW? I got back into Warhammer a few years ago. In my childhood I played WFB and 40k. On returning to the hobby, obviously WFB had been blown up and so I got into AoS and really enjoy it. It's been interesting seeing how the setting has developed over that time.
I don't plan to stop collecting or playing AoS but I just can't ignore the pull of the old world either. My large dwarf army can finally return and I always craved a bretonnian army so that's my launch box sorted. I'm finding though I'll have a lot of crossovers with my collections... Cities of sigmar humans and bretonnians. Cities of sigmar duardin and dwarfs. Gloomspite and orcs and goblins. I guess my AoS choices were trying to recreate what I had in WFB!
I'll likely end up trying to use some models in both formats but it kind of feels a bit strange to be doubling up and I'm not sure how I'll end up splitting my hobby time. Has anyone else thought about this? Or just accept I'll have twice as many armies now 😂
With such cases, I think it's just best to follow your current mood, since we're pursuing this hobby out of joy. Want to play/paint nothing but WHFB for the next 6 months? Go for it! Feel like diving back into AoS and forget about ToW for the foreseeable future? Do so!
For example, I've been building and painting my dwarf throng with which I've been playing 7th with a few friends lately, but then got pulled back into my AoS lizardmen project after deciding to give a couple of saurus a lick of paint on a whim.
Game wise, I think it's good that the two games function very differently and scratch completely different itches, so there's always the other one when the first (inevitably, imho) grows stale.
To quote the friend I've been playing with, AoS is a better "game", but WHFB/ToW makes you feel like a general. All in all, it's a great time for people who enjoy both.
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2 hours ago, RetconnedLegion said:
It’s to avoid another Matt Ward situation where an unpopular product leads to its designer receiving death threats.
Only it isn't, really. Even Peachy said during a podcast appearance (the one he occasionally co-hosts, name escapes me) that such claims were more of an excuse than the real reason, noting that artists themselves don't take the threat of a Matt Ward scenario seriously and would much rather be credited.
IIRC, he mentioned that they don't credit the artist because they don't want to have another Duncan Rhodes scenario, and want consumers to think about art/models in terms of Games Workshop the brand, rather as the work of an individual artist.
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29 minutes ago, Bolfrig Bearhide said:
Seen some rumours that step up is no longer a thing, and if that’s true I’m a little bit worried. As a dwarf player, I’d be quite upset if the ability for my units to actually attack something is vastly reduced.
I was thinking about that as I've been playing some 7th edition with friends lately (and I'm playing dwarfs after playing wood elves while WHFB was still a thing, so I get the pain).
On the one side, not hitting back most times is frustrating, but on the other, step-up kind of makes initiative redundant in case there's more than 10 models in a unit that goes second.
I've come to the conclusion that the addition of entire first rank hitting no matter the base contact might be a way to make the no step-up less punishing, but retain the tactical element it brings to the table (in theory, at least).
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10 minutes ago, Noserenda said:
You could always play almost any army as a Border Princes kingdom, the area is pretty much designed to be a melting pot for exactly that reason
The Dwarf tank was past being designed and well into the hands of the army painter team to be painted when it got shelved so good odds we might see it as their new kit...I'm sad this forum doesn't have a SAY WHAT emoji for this specific post. Please do tell more
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2 hours ago, Ogregut said:
Wouldn't be those but these glade guard
I would buy dozens of these (again, as I sadly sold my WE army years ago) in a heartbeat. Same goes for glade riders (and even 6th ed eternal guard & wild riders, which I like infinitely more than 8th ed resculpts).
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59 minutes ago, Sception said:
30mm x 60mm for the base size, eh? Do we think all cavalry will be on that size, or will there be smaller cav still on 25 x 50s, sort of like in AoS there are 65mm ovals and 75mm ovals?
Do you think it's safe to extrapolate further from that? 30 x 30 square bases for larger infantry that used to be on 25mm squares? 60 x 120mm the new size for chariot bases & things like sphinxes & necroknights?
The specification of "heavy cavalry" being on 30*60 mm makes me think that fast cav will stay on old cavalry bases
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6 hours ago, Sir Grimm said:
Never understood why GKs had 1 wound only as they are far more resilient than the average Joe. Nevertheless the 3+ AS makes no sense at all, both fluffwise and rulewise. The rest of their profile seems cool and interesting, but sadly they would get Last Samurai-ed most of the time before making contact imho.
Being mounted doesn't confer +1 to AS anymore it seems - which is common sense, and it may just make heavy cavalry (I'm looking at you, imperial knightly orders) less of a mindless hammer/tarpit, since they won't have the 1+ armor save anymore.
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Warhammer - The Old World
in Warhammer: The Old World
Posted
Just curious, how has the cannon fared in your games? I fielded 0 of them (or other warmachines) in my half a dozen or so games with dwarfs, and I'm wondering if I'm missing anything (although it doesn't feel like I am).