[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

3 minutes ago, Maglynn said:

This here is an endrinmaster I've been working on - all the reds  (And the blue!) are contrast Hope this helps!

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Ohh very nice, the red still has that metallic look.  What'd you use for the red parts besides contrast?

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

For Barak Zilfin Amendment- Dont argue with the wind- Does this still count as a run?

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

36 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I have used a bit of contrasts, but an not too happy with it. They don't work for metals, and you can't prime them metallic as well. Certainly does work for the clothing though.

Ya i painted a thunderer last night with mainly contrasts and it just looked kinda meh. But i just primed my whole army in the grey seer contrast primer lol.  I really wanted to go for an arctic theme and some of the blues would look nice in the contrast lines. 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

has anyone painted KO with contrasts? Id love to see how they turned out, guides would be a bonus. Lots of metallics on the KO so im wondering if contrasts are the way to go. 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

7 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Wow, I‘m overwhelmed by the negativity of this post. 

How is it that I just enjoy that tome, winning games left and right and feeling super positive about everything from fluff to rule design while there are people who seem to lose their mind about „how unbalanced and badly written“ this tome is written. 

I have nothing more to say, just that I completely disagree with pretty much all of your points and I‘m glad that people like you obviously dont develop this game, because otherwise it would probably suck.

 

I‘m done with this thread, wish you guys the best of luck for the future and great fun with this army.

To all of you guys thinking GW betrayed you with that tome, you probably got what you deserved.

Lol i love the new tome, its what ive wanted from Ko since i got into AOS with an ironclad. All im saying is theres space to create magic for the dwarfs lol, i dont think thats such a negative idea.

  And i gotta be honest man, ive been reading this thread for days and the most negativity ive seen is coming from your direction where a mod even warned you, so i mean...you do you, im just here to discuss KO. 

 

22 minutes ago, Kramer said:

But... then GW according to their own communications isn’t building what you want. They are model -> make rules that fit. 
I get your other arguments though. And we could discuss wether or not having impact in every aspect of the game is needed for balance. Because we seem to disagree on that front a bit. Which is fine. But your core philosophy game first being so mirrored from the GW approach would worry me very much as a consumer. 

100% im setting myself up for some disappointment,  but i do enjoy the game and i have a group of awesome friends that got me into it and ive learned to enjoy the hobby aspect of it as well.  Im just hoping they maybe shift directions at some point lol, they can have cool models and fluff and balanced rules.  And if not, it is what it is, but im also a consumer, so here i am voicing my opinion, even if its the antithesis of what GW wants. Im a stubborn guy like that who loves to grumble lol. 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

but just to satisfy my curiousity. Why isn't it nearly the same? 

Well, narratively ya it kinda is the same. The fluff works in that regard, cant deny that. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Because both are decidedly narrative choices at heart to exclude elements of the game.
According to GW: Dwarves don't use magic. but with fyreslayers they decided the importance of their religion should manifest itself on the battlefield. And KO don't do magic, and renounced praying to the gods. So no magic or prayers. Makes sense for me. 
According to GW: Skellies don't run. They do crumble though. (which works better with AoS battleshock btw). Now we have more sentient skellies. So they don't run, they grind themselves to dust for the cause. 
Matches how the rules writers describe the proces. Models first and then the background and then making that happen on the tabletop. 

IMO narrative choices should not affect game rules. And this has been my biggest disconnect with AOS and GW. I want a game first and foremost, and i want fluff 2nd. If a game designer is making a rule based on fluff and ignoring the game because of it, that could result in an unbalanced rule. I want a balanced game, i want every army to have an equal chance at winning, or as close as we can get. 

Fyreslayers getting prayers is primo, its exactly what i want to see, and i have less of a problem with them having no magic when they have prayers to fall back on. I would still love for them to have something to compensate further for no magic interaction outside of taking specific artifacts. Prayers are something that can't be affected by enemies so far, where as magic is intended to be challenged.  Ex.Navigator; its a good start, innate chance at an unbind, using technology. They dont need to use magic if Narrative is the only thing we're worried about, give them magic but literally slap a different name on it and make them inventions or works of science. Now we have some control of a phase liek every other army in the game. GW needs to move beyond the "dwarfs have no magic" narrative and into the " dwarves dont need no stinking magic they have "insert army specific chart here" . functionally the same thing, but in line with narratives. 

OBR ignoring battleshock is what i mentioned above, a rule based on fluff leads to an unbalanced rule. This is fluff that has these elite horde mobs with great healing and survivability ignore the one flipping thing that could bite them in the ass by doing something unprecedented and that every single other army has to have and invest multiple strategies to deal with. having a leader nearby with a bubble, having a CP ready for a battlshock.  Its a pure benefit, there is no downside to NOT taking battleshock.  

So fluff/narrative OBR is on point, and Duradin are just getting the short end of the stick for some old flavor that needs to be moved beyond.
But mechanically one purely benefits from their fluff while the other only suffers. Its bad game design. 

Again, thats my biggest disconnect, i want a fair, balanced, game first and foremost, and flavor and fluff after that. 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

29 minutes ago, Sesom said:

I mean, they got rid of the battleshock phase for OBR, isn't this kind of the same thing? 🙃

Im terrible at picking up sarcasm in text, so im just going to assume this was sarcastic lol. 

If it wasnt .....then no its not nearly the same haha. 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I've said this since Endless Spells were announced, but I'd love if all the Dawi factions received a unique, Runic system in the same vein as what Prayers are for non-magical factions. Hell, some of the more basic ones could even be shared among the <Duradin> factions with each spin-off getting it's unique spin. 

Ya i 100% agree. Theres plenty of room to play with the idea, but GW seems to have 0 interest in doing that. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind taking out an entire phase for a faction and if it comes down to ANYTHING but " duradin dont magics" id be surprised. 

 

31 minutes ago, Boar said:

I would advice to focus down the Gloomspite heroes first and try to deny the Bounderz their charge. If they don't charge they don't deal MWs and their lances will only wound on 4+. And try to kill the Mangler ASAP. Taking control of objectives will still be hard. I would probably ignore one of the big Stabba blobs and focus down the other one. Hope this helps, fellow Admirals.

Thanks for the advice, its actually  a new army in our group so im still learning about its potential as well. So far the bounderz have definitely been the most lethal force outside the boss on mangler. I think i really need to play more defensively, but they have some real insane movement on top of run and charge. The navigator's aetherstorm is amazing against the manglers though, i was even thinking about messing with the artifact so its a 2+ instead of 3+.  The drill cannons on gunhaulers can just take out alot of his heroes even with -1/2 to hit. The other problem like you said was that theirs plenty of bodies for Gitz to do area denial on their board, making flanking or deepstriking a bit tough. Add in hand of gork threatening OUR backlines it gets a bit sketchy moving the ship when you might get double turned. 

In the 2 games i played i focused manglers ( he brought 2, one with the hero on top one without) and then bounders when possible. So im on the right track it sounds like. The manglers are pretty beefy and hit hard as ****** though.  And if you cant finish them off they can become jut as deadly as a full bracket!

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

9 minutes ago, GDD said:

The army already sort of plays on that idea with the aethergold-shares and the Navigators ability.

Exactly. We could have easily gotten something in place of magic/prayers.  If *dwarfs dont magic* flavor is whats keeping them from giving us something similar, then just rebrand it with the aethergold or inventions.  The fact is, we dont get to participate in one of the 3 main phases of the game unless we bring in outside help which is a weaker choice because of lack of allegiance. 

Random idea- Terrain piece that gives us access to a magic/prayer like system. ****** something like OBRS terrain piece would've been nice.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

22 minutes ago, Nick907 said:

Nah dwarfs don’t need magic, we have shooting and rend and fly-high instead of spells. Just let the casters do their thing and then shoot them. 
We are weak in melee but that’s okay because we rule movement. 

Plenty of armies have shooting and rend, i dont think us having it cancels out magic. I agree, we may well be the new masters of movement, but plenty of armies have some insane movement as well, or rules like SCE and nighthaunt where they can deepstrike. 

Your saying our shooting and movement makes up for not having any magic, but i dont agree with that. Our shooting is comparable to other armies, we just have alot of it in place of melee. The movement is great, i wont underplay it, but its also comparable to other armies movement shenanigans. 

 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

I've played 2 games against Gloomspite gitz so far.  both have been losses, but i've made some crucial mistakes. 

Things i love so far
Mobility- I mean, holy ****** lol. Just dropping gunhaulers loaded with balloons all over the board is clutch. Flying high and dropping and shooting is even sexier. 
Ships- Gunhaulers with drill cannons are deadly, and picking the endrinwork to have a capacity of 5 is real fun and opens up possibilities. 
Battleline options- Holy ****** we needed this. It was my #1 pet peeve of the army for 2 years. Now we have plenty of options and its great. 
Battalions- They actually seem worth it for once. escort wing is all ive used due to models, but its been great. 
Ship healing- Its nice to have an army with some sustainability, even nicer seeing your point sinks survive and get back to full brackets. 

Things i dislike
the sky ports have some real ****** options baked in. Just unnecessarily restrictive. 
Lots of 1 battle use abilities- Never really a fan of these, and while some are pretty powerful and understandable, others not so much. ( the endrinmaster bomblets are a good 1x use, the city of traders ( forget its name) lets you give 1 unit that was in combat that turn an aether gold share 1x a game. Thats really not so amazing as to need to make it 1x a game IMO. ) 
Damage output- It seems pretty solid for ranged, but the melee is lacking, and our magic phase is....non existent. Just seems like we cant compete on actual output, and if we get into combat it seems like the best course of action is to retreat and try shooting again. If this game didnt have like 6 armies come out this year with completely bonkers rules i feel we would be in a great spot, but with some of the meta bogeymans out there, this seems like what GW shouldve aimed for with every army, but overshot it with quite a few. But ill def wait and see how it does against all these armies myself. 
Magic phase- I KNOW, we're Duradin...we dont need no stinkin magic! except... we kinda do. or at the very least something more innate than bringing an ally or a navigator with 1 chance. The Skyport is a nice answer to heavy magic, but thats a huge investment for that in taking a skyport that determines your code. Dwarf armies should be given something to compensate for literally not having a magic phase. The KO dont even have prayers to kinda make up for no magic ( even though some armies have both). I think its garbage game design in favor of flavor. Too many games im sitting there just letting opponents cast spells because i literally have nothing to stop them with unless i take sub par units as allies. The whole "Dwarves dont use magic" needs to be buried, or we need a new phase;"dwarven shenanigans" lol. 
 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

1 hour ago, crkhobbit said:

I'm absolutely going to test Khemist/Bottle/WLV while allying in a Knight-Incantor and Comet.  Vortex AND Comet cast into opponent's deployment on turn 1?  Yes, please.

You evil genius....... This could be so devastating. 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

35 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Yeah but then your argument is: what if. And then deciding it’s the most negative explanation. OBR would have had that ability anyway imo then. 
im countering with. What If we got terrain it would be a flag that allows fly high if in LOS. Boom we’re better off without it. Now we can do it FOR FREE AND EVERYWHERE. 

its all down to the rules not the model. Having a model is a disadvantage financially, rules wise it limits you and you have to carry more stuff. It’s a straight advantage not having them.

I see what you mean by me taking it as the most negative explanation, but arent you doing the same with the most positive one? Your saying we would've lost something, but theirs no evidence to that. whose to say we couldn't have gotten everything we've seen like the Fly high ability AS WELL as something liek a flag that lets your units run and charge while within 18" of it? Obviously pulled that one out of my ass, but the point stands. Whose to say if the armys got the terrain features equivalent power baked into the army? Because from where im standing, it just looks like they got a full set of allegiance abilities + a piece of terrain,  not half a set of allegiance abilities and a terrain to fill in the gaps. 

Financially, yes its a disadvantage, but this is warhammer, finances were never the prime concern or noone would get into this hobby. Rules wise it only limits if we take it as something we wouldve had without a terrain feature, which i don't see it as, but it could be argued either way. Hopefully its all balanced and makes it a wash, but again, at face value id gladly take some terrain over no terrain. 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

38 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Yeah that’s not why they are winning way too big. Just like it isn’t for Slaanesh. Of course its a leg up against nothing. but if the allegiance abilities are overpowered it doesn’t matter. If they are under powered you are not suddenly winning. So it only helps if it’s a part of you abilities. And as such it’s irrelevant. Only thing that’s relevant if the rules as a whole work. Doesn’t matter what’s in there except for flavour 

But cities won 2 big tournaments without it, as a case in point it helps but it’s not the end all be all. 

Its not end all be all, but its an advantage, idk how that can be argued against. Every army gets allegiance abilities, whose to say if the power of a terrain piece is lacking in the allegiance abilities or if its baked in? As it stands, every army gets allegiance abilities, not every army gets a terrain feature or endless spells, giving them to one army and not another is a straight up advantage for the army that has been given them. Im not saying their winning games by themselves ( allthough my last game against OBR certainly went differently having them gimp Gotreks movement FOR FREE) but its undeniably an advantage to have something in your toolkit versus not having it. 

 

43 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:

A terrain piece gives a "free" buff to the army just like any other faction or allegiance ability.  But it restricts it to a specific location on the board.

We are not missing anything by not having a terrain piece

You said it yourself, its a "free buff" but its not like every other allegiance ability, because allegiance abilities are one thing, and a terrain feature is an entirely separate thing. Just because its limited on the board doesnt make it worse. Like i say above, whose to say the allegiance abilities have the equivalent power of a terrain feature baked into them. The only thing that is certain is that having is better than not having. gaining an additional tool is an advantage. Again i point to OBR, they have great allegiance abilities, the terrain is a cherry on top. Endless spells i feel are the same, but to a lesser extent because at least those cost points to use so their more in line with a standalone unit. 

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

Still dont know the details, but DAMN im regretting selling my KO last month. These changes all sound so fun and exactly what i wanted for so long. No mention of the new hero letting you take baloon boyz as battleline, that'll be incredibly disappointing. But frigates as battleline could be real cool.  The faction that lets you take other dwarves might be fantastic too just to use other models. I wonder if they can be carried by the ships

The aether gold feature is a nice touch as well. 

100% bummed by no spells or terrain. For everyone that says its not a big deal, ill point you at the OBR terrain piece. You give an army something for free they already have a leg up on any army that doesnt have one, same goes for spells. Its 100% a detriment to the army not having those things, just hands down, flat out, a disadvantage. 

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

16 minutes ago, Overread said:

So it might be that the same harvester is rebuilding the same model over and over or that the unit took 10 wounds and the harvester is just repairing each one from minor damage back to full health. 

But the rules are slain models, so flavor wise its not damaged reapers being repaired, its dead ones, and in this case it would be the same dead one dying and being repaired over and over again in an instant lol. Im just arguing semantics at this point though. I appreciate the clarification on the rules.

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

Ok, so ive just interpreted it as nutty because for the majority of the game, you roll all at once for ease, but with this unit, it becomes better to do it one at a time. So its always been there, this is just a unit that makes full use of it to get crazy value. 

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

That just seems absolutely nutty to me  
as hard as it is to push wounds through on these units, then you can just allocate the ones that went through to the same exact model over and over with a 50% chance each time. What else in this game functions like that? Just like i mentioned in my description of how that would play out flavor wise, it makes no sense lol. the one skeleton is getting rebuilt instantly before each arrow hits from a spray of 10 at the same time. 

Not a fan, but ill learn to live with it like some other nonsense in this game. 

[AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion]

Can i get clarification on the harvester rules for "bone harvest" 

So, lets say hes got a harvester next to a unit of 10 mortek gaurd. 10 wounds go through to the mortek, he fails to save any of them. the harvester ability activates, on a 4+ he gets to bring one of the slain models back to a unit within 6" . 

So he allocates the 1st of 10 wounds, and it goes through and he fails the 4+ "bone harvest" save. the model is removed. He then takes a 4+ roll for the 2nd of 10 wounds and passes. he immediately puts a mortek gaurd back into the same group within 3" of the harvester, and now goes to allocate that 3rd of 10 wounds to the model he just set back up in the unit. this continues until all 10 wounds have been allocated, but hes only had to roll a 4+ on the same 2 models the entire time. 

Is that how this works? It seems incredibly silly that 10 wounds would go through, but technically the same model can be used over and over again to allocate those wounds. flavor wise this would be like 10 arrows coming in at once, but the harvester is picking up and reassembling the same skeleton before each consecutive arrow hits its mark. Where as every other instance of wounds in the game would be - 10 wounds taken, 10 models get saves, the failed saves are removed all at once. 

are we playing this wrong? 

[AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion]

Busted out the DOK for the first time in a minute to face off some Petrifax OBR

Morathi- mindrazor
SQ on cauldron- General/blessing of khaine/iron circlet
hag queen

30x witch aelves
10 witch aelves
10 witch aelves
All with bucklers

GOTREK

Pallisade

1990/2000

battle plane - total commitment ( i think) its like knife to the heart but split horizontally on the board. 

Long drawn out match, but with Morathi sniping leaders ( we rolled for realms and got Hyish, which is dirty good against OBR) The 1st spell is straight d6 mortals to death units, and the black horror was rolling hot so i ended up dealing D6 with it almost every time.  Kept the witchs and the cauldron near the front of my deployment and screening morathi and the hag and the cauldron, and i sent Gotrek forward with a unit of 10 witch aelves. 

Pretty much Gotrek is a god when you're rolling hot, i cleaved through an entire unit of mortek gaurd, got inititive and rolled his harvester and some bone caster. 

Witchs held their own against the stalkers, but without mindrazor on them its pretty tough going. his liege kavalos soaked 3 rounds of combat from a unit of 30 of them. the kavalos was rolling 2+/6+ for saves, so it took a minute to whittle em down, but it wasnt all that killy either and only got 7 witches. Mortek Gaurd are just fuckign nutty on the defense, bring rend or be sad. 

having 1k points in 2 models is goofy as hell, but its also mad fun lol. I dont think its a great list, but they have 2 major threats tot ake care of and the witches are their to catch em off guard with a quick mindrazor/catechism blender. Also SQ command ability is a nice cherry on top. 
 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Just to round it back out towards Skaven, I think you can see the same with WLV. The 'rat trap' is still something people absolutely cannot stand and I can understand why, though I think the range nerf killed it from being an auto-include as you need a Grey Seer w/ Skitterleap to get it in T1 like you could previously. I'm fine with the change, as it was just as bad a play experience for people to experience, just like the Crawler can be.

Ya i think the range nerf without adjusting its points made it way worse. but i still try and find room for it in every list because it can be pretty clutch. At the same time it can completely whiff or fail to even get off pretty frequently, so that 100 points is a pretty big hit or miss investment. But ya, if its being abused like that it needed to get changed. 

 

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Also, I would say fixing the game is a 50/50 effort at least. It's obvious many things were not at all\barely playtested for many armies (Slaanesh) and I don't expect them or the playtesters to have everything figured out... so yeah, more updates per year.

more updates per year for sure, they need to move beyond printed tomes. have the tomes be a collector item, but have the main form be digital so they can adjust it when needed. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

then again all I ever hear about from 40k is how horrifically unbalanced it is so, maybe not 😅

Lol whenever my buddies try to sell me on it im just like.......so you can kill the opponent with like 4 models before they even have a turn with ranged units that target the whole board? Sounds absolutely terrible lol. 

 

11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

But you need to understand that the Ossiarchs in general can do nearly everything by themselves and don't require tons of support from Heroes and the like. All in all, yeah the Crawler can lead to bad play experiences but I think it's appropriately costed and at most should only receive a 10-30 points adjustment; I mean, why the hell are Morghasts 210 and Stalkers 200?

the fact ossiarch can do it all without support from heroes is already a bit silly, though i dont think too crazy. It seems liek GW wanted to color outside the lines of regular mechanics and rules with the OBR and its led to some crazy stuff. Like them getting 5+ "command points" a turn, or just outright being immune to battleshock. Im not sure what points increase it would need, but it def needs to go up by 20+ imo.  My opinion is based on no actual data on how they perform though so take it with a huge grain of salt lol. Stalkers are pretty deadly, i can see why they cost that much. I mean a buffed unit of 6 has like 3 attacks at -4/3  ( just the leads with falchions) and then the regular attacks which are more reliable damage but i dont have em in front of me. And thats only 1 buff im pretty sure, the -1 rend +1 dmg is an insane ability they get to use on themselves every turn.  I havent seen morghasts in action yet. 

 

11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I don't know the fix and I won't pretend that I do

Im right there with ya, but tbh its not our job to fix the game, its GW's. Because it honestly seems like half the books/armies they put out didnt get playtested beyond like 2 games and they just said "good enough" which leads to broken combos or spammed units. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

13 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

ps: I was thinking of taking the buffs and debuffs to my army since my local players seem to be very interested in mindrazored daughters and flesh eater.

those buffs should keep my units alive for a bit longer 

ooh thats fair, if the local meta calls for it thats what you gotta do! I run my fyreslayers hearthgaurd berzerkers with poleaxes because my local meta is really heavy on high  AS/ ethereal nonsense so MWs are my only real option. Even though the axes are more reliable dmg. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

14 hours ago, Gwendar said:

also, remember that Reinforce Battle Shields (the 5+ save spell) is only against MW's

ooh im not sure if he was doing it for only mortals or not. I think he played it right but ill double check with him. 

 

14 hours ago, Gwendar said:

but I've also seen Longstrikes, Jezzails, Ballistas, Comet, WLV, Ungor Raiders, etc kill things in 1 turn too from crazy ranges or teleport shenanigans.

Most of those require added support though to really do their thing, or taking them in bulk to spam it ( a unit of 2 jezaails is 140 pts and that aint gonna do ****** for ya lol)  You're not wrong though, theirs definitely some equally crappy stuff out there. SCE alpha strike/shoot cast has made for some of the worst game experiences ive ever had in AOS lol. But again, the point cost is the big thing that sets the crawler apart because it does everything it needs to by itself.  

 

 

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Yes, I would agree to some extent.. but I think people bringing 1 is just fine for what it does. The 'problem' with OBR is all of your special stuff is ~200 points. Harvester, Stalkers, Crawlers are all 200 points while Morghasts (no) are 210 and Deathriders (eh..) 180. After bringing the standard 20-20-20\20-20-10 Mortek and your assortment of 2-4 Heroes, you generally have just enough left for 2 of the above + some Endless Spells. Some take 2 Crawlers, some take 6 Stalkers or a mix, but the Crawler is an undoubtedly amazing choice and I don't think a points hike on it will do much unless it goes to 250, at which point you will really hurt the points economy unless other stuff goes down, in my opinion.

Hmm, i see what you're saying,, but isnt that just how list building works? If you cant take 20/20/20 mortek, then take 10/10./20 you should have to lose on something somewhere else if you want to bring powerful stuff. If the price hiked to 250 that just means they need to find those points elsewhere like every other army does. having 1 model whose points are too low for it shouldnt be glossed over because it would throw the rest of the points out of whack, that's what playtesting is for.  And im a cynical/pragmatic person, so in my mind this is GW saying, oh hey we can keep the cost low enough to where we can sell 2 models instead of having it fairly priced and then have them only want 1 of this or not picking up a box of stalkers because they dont have room for it in the list. 

I think your reasoning is sound, but i also think thats bad reasoning to work off of for game design. All units should be very close to their point worth, i know its not going to be perfect, so those 10/20 pt adjustments are the right way to go with the GHB. But something like the crawler should never have been that low in the first place and it shouldnt be excused because the rest of the list building is affected by it. If thats the case then GW should have playtested the army more and made other adjustments on profiles or point costs where needed.

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

while Morghasts (no) are 210 and Deathriders (eh..) 180. After bringing the standard 20-20-20\20-20-10 Mortek and your assortment of 2-4 Heroes, you generally have just enough left for 2 of the above + some Endless Spells.

If the other battleline/unit options arent worth bringing because mortek gaurd are so good, then either adjust mortek profile, raise their points, or adjust the other units profiles/points to make them viable. Thats the real problem GW has, they keep making one unit the obvious choice, or one sub faction in the book the must take option for competitive play. And then they adjust the points 1x a year and think thats enough. 

 

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Anyway, I loved the writeup and would like to see another if you play again. I agree that I think some higher rend\damage would potentially be the way to go as it really is the Mortek Guard that are the key to that army... 

Thanks, i appreciate your input and its good to see the problem through an OBR players eyes as well. Like i said, we gotta give the army some time to truly see if its a problem, but the crawler is just one of those units that makes me lose faith in GW as a game designer versus a company trying to sell plastic. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

2 hours ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

We'll see how it plays out and how popular the army becomes.

For sure, the rest of the army is pretty rock solid too so i think we're gonna be seeing quite a few different lists. Against skaven that hasnt brought much Skyre its seemingly a really bad matchup for our army. Normal attacks just arent gonna get through. Alot of rat units only have sheer numbers going for them.