novembermike
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Posts posted by novembermike
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4 hours ago, Gauche said:
My Arkanaut Company were actually very strong as a screen, there was a clutch Redeploy that kept the VLoZD out of melee so I could finish it off the next round. I also just found having bodies is so necessary as otherwise you have to almost entirely shoot the opponent off an Objective and that's not always possible.
Arkanauts have been underrated for awhile now. Pound for pound they were one of the toughest, hardest hitting units in the army before the points changes and they got fairly standard increases. They never had the buffs or mobility to really take over games but in the little part of the board they sit on they're a quality unit. I could easily see taking 3-5 squads of them right now.
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Do halberds get better on warriors? A squad of 20 with halberds actually seems pretty hard to shift and good at swinging back, but that's also a lot of points...
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55 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:
I want to know what intern got the job of doing Fyreslayers on his lunchbreak, because it feels so random.
Hearthguard Berzerkers were The Thing You Wanted To Spam, and although they were stealth nerfed by the loss of Battalions, most people ran them with a Runefather General to make them Battleline anyway and they were/are still our best unit. Them only going up by 5pts was odd.
Vulkite Berzerkers, whilst not bad per say, weren't amazing either and greatly overshadowed by Hearthguard and went up... 40pts?! What?!
Even weirder is the Battlesmith being taken in just about every list, but he went down 15pts. Huh?
I never thought I'd say, "We need another Slaanesh Battletome already" but right now I feel for you guys and gals.
Didn't HGB want to be in big 20 man blocks, so they effectively went up 100 points for the block? And you can only take 1 big block in a 2k point game? Vulkites actually seem like they came out better here since they don't have the same incentives towards big squads.
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That looks fine to me I think? Reinforce a thunderer squad for big shoots and the rest seem pretty competitive for the points.
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Just now, GutrotSpume said:
Wow they didn’t add 40K style rules for fighting in combat! So any unit that is minimum 10 models on bigger than a 25mm base that only has a 1 inch reach is pretty rubbish now! What planet are GW on that they thought this was a good idea?
This actually seems reasonable to me? Making things good or bad is perfectly reasonable.
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3 hours ago, Siphon said:
I do wonder if they very subtly answered the question about if AOS will get the 40k second rank engagement rules in this article. They talk about the 2inch reach of the Symbaresh being useful because more of them can attack. If we were getting the 40k rules, I’m not sure it would matter.
probably reading too much into it.
Right now I'm assuming there's no second rank rule. 1" coherency is enough to get roughly two staggered ranks with 25 or 32mm bases and I think they want people to have to take longer melee weapons if they want to go above that. They're pushing back a bit on big unit anyway.
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Two wounds is pretty meaningful even with a 5+ (4+ in melee). It's 4 wounds for every 3 that arkanauts get and you're less vulnerable to high quality attacks with rend. Fyreslayers also aren't better at protecting heroes but you're more likely to see 4+ Fyreslayer heroes in a list and some of them might be on Magmadroths so it's a lot easier to fulfill the condition where at least one hero is alive and within 10".
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1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:
Hearthguard berserkers. Vulkites are garbage.
HGB are great in fyreslayers but they're pretty mediocre here since you can't reliably keep the characters alive to keep them tough. You also don't have the same tricks to get them into combat. Vulkites haven't been garbage either since they got the extra wound. They're fine now, they're realistically tougher than anything else you can take against most enemies and they have decent melee output.
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5 hours ago, velveetagamerfuel said:
Thinking about getting into KO and i was wondering what non-flying dwarves would be good to bring in a Barak-Thryng list?
From Cities:
- Runelords for anti-magic work and buffing Cities dispossessed
- Warden king for buffing Cities dispossessed. Kind of mediocre but not terrible
- Irondrakes are probably the best pound for pound dedicated shooting option in the game. They lose a lot when they move or get in melee (which isn't a problem for KO) but if you can let them stand still and protect them they're much more dangerous than KO shooting
- Hammerers, Ironbreakers and Longbeards don't have too much of a leg up over Arkanauts but with the point drops you could find reasons to take them
- The gyrobombers and copters compete with your airships but they have some good bonuses to make them worth it
From Fyreslayers it's really just the Runesmiter (for the deep strike) and the vulkite berzerkers as the toughest thing you can get for the points. Everything else works but either relies on fyreslayer synergies a bit too much or doesn't do interesting things for KO.
Once you move to the unaligned duardin the most interesting one is the Runelord on a Anvil. He can't move but he's much better than a regular runelord sitting where he is.
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10 hours ago, Sttufe said:
Woops wrong unit I meant ironbreakers, although arkanauts could work too.
Arkanauts are generally tougher than other duardin point for point. The only real exceptions are some Fyreslayer units. If you just want a screen I'd look at them.
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8 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said:
The frigate flies high in place of a normal movement, so my understanding is that the answer is yes. What’s more, you can deploy closer than 9” when doing so (though the frigate can’t, units leaving a garrison can deploy anywhere more than 3” from enemies and within 6” of the boat) and then roll 3d6 for charge.
This doesn't work. You can't disembark after moving or flying high normally. The Iron Sky Attack Squadron removes the restriction on disembarking after moving but not flying high.
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1 hour ago, willange said:
1. Assume my attack profile is 3+ to hit and 5+ to wound. If I have the ability to give myself re-rollable 1s to hit OR re-rollable 1s to wound, which should I take? To hit, obviously, since that re-roll will be more likely to produce a result than the wound roll would be.
This is a misconception. They're both identical.
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8 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:
Anyone have any thoughts on 1 Fumigator and 4 Rifles per 5 Thunderers? In a unit of 10 you’re losing 4 18” shots (1, maybe 2 wounds total on average?) but that -1 to hit for the whole unit could really help them survive on an objective.
yeah, it looks pretty solid. An Aether Khemist in there with them also seems good. At the end of the day you'll need to hold some objectives and they'll do it while putting out decent damage at range.
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2 hours ago, FlatTooth said:
Hey all, thinking about dipping my toe into the KO pool. I’ve always loved the idea of Barak Thryng but I’m not sure the best way to use the dispossessed. One idea I had was a block of hammerers and a soulscream bridge in a bottle to help them get where they’re going. Has anyone else played with something similar? It seems a little silly to bring the bridge in an army with fly high haha
If you want to bridge something then it's probably Irondrakes. They're still far better shooting than anything KO have. If you want aggressive melee then Fyreslayers will probably be more efficient, they can even deep strike with the Runesmiter.
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I think at least part of it is that they've been slightly hostile towards consumers. I remember a few times (Spears of the Emperor at least) where I wanted to buy a book but I didn't have a realistic option to. I did pick up spears at the end of the day and it's a good book but there's probably other books that I haven't picked up because GW just doesn't make it easy for me to buy them.
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5 hours ago, The World Tree said:
Does anyone seriously think counts as slain is distinct from slain?
I mean, it's different in the sense that fleeing has different rules and wording than stuff that's slain on the battlefield. Stuff that flees counts as having been slain in the past tense. You never have a point where you can say that the horror is slain on the battlefield and will fit the conditions for splitting.
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15 hours ago, Kadeton said:
One weird thing I noted: If you decide to split a Horror, but don't have room to place the models, then they are removed from play but very explicitly do not count as being slain.
This got me wondering, in the context of the current discussion, what the implication would be for a unit to have models removed without being slain. I mean, there must be some reason why the Battleshock rules and the Split Unit rules so clearly state that the models that are removed count as slain, right? So what happens when they aren't?
For instance, the Core Rules Designer's Commentary clearly defines that "A unit is considered to be destroyed when the last model from the unit is slain or flees." A unit that had some of its models removed from play (but definitely not slain) could potentially be removed entirely from the board without being "destroyed" for the purposes of mission objectives, special rules etc.
Thoughts?
Look at 40k. The more rules there are mostly similar except they don't have the "counts has having been slain" wording at the end. That means that necrons have to keep track of how many models were killed vs ran away and a few other book keeping issues but it doesn't really add much to the game.
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9 minutes ago, michu said:
No, I mean they would write about it in the Core Rules.
Not if they felt the rules were clear. Slain models are on the table and then removed. Horrors split when they are slain and then removed (works with the wording from slain). Models that flee are removed and then "count them as having been slain" (note the past tense). The hooks just aren't there for Horrors to split on battleshock.
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21 minutes ago, michu said:
Ok, I can't agree with that interpretation. I think if that was their intent, they would write about it like about DD rolls for BS and saves counting as modified.
The FAQ just answers questions, if nobody sends in a question they don't answer it.
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3 hours ago, Czarnyjas said:
So can You adivice me something?
Phasteon's more or less right here. 1-2 HGB squads is fine but Vulkites are better with no support and Auric Hearthguard are better at supporting.
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17 minutes ago, Isotop said:
An inch is a perfectly defined concept. Your "look backs" and "replacement effects" are terms made up by you. I think it is pretty clear that these are subjective concepts that do not exist in AoS rules as general constructs.
EDIT: It is absolutely fine to use new terms to describe how you might understand a certain ruling, but please do not act as if "look backs" and "replacement effects" are some objective rules facts. Just explain a bit more and others might be able to follow your argumentation and react in a sensible way.
Which inch? Are we using Scottish inches? Survey Inches? French Inches? Is it just 1/12th of a foot? If so, whose foot are we measuring? There's a basic assumption that people will be reasonable about it. I'll go ahead and define the terms in case there's confusion but the terms are not that unusual.
Look-back: The game's memory. Hungry Hungry Hippos has no memory, you can derive the entire state of the game off of the state of the board. Chess has a little memory, you need to now who's turn it is and whether anyone castled to understand the state of the game. AOS has tons of memory, you need to know if something moved, how many models were slain that turn, how many were slain total, etc to understand the state of the game.
Replacement Effect: AOS provides a set of basic rules. Many units have abilities that modify those rules. For example, Gyrobombers have a rule that lets them bomb things after they move. The rule doesn't limit how many times you can use the ability after a move, but most people play it as being usable once per move rather than infinite times. The simplest way to model that is that it modifies the way that Gyrobombers move. You can model the rule differently but it ends up being functionally identical to a replacement.
GW isn't too rigorous about their rules system so they can be a bit random but they do tend to write rules differently for these. When they modify the game's memory they tend to say "counts as" and add in a past tense bit. In 40k, deep strikers "count as having moved", and if they don't come in by the third turn they "count as having been destroyed". Morale and split units are the same in AOS, for battleshock models flee, which is defined as "remove them from play and count them as having been slain", while split units says "the models you remove count as having been slain". This is very different from the slain event, which is defined as "Place a slain model to one side - it is removed from play". One is slain -> removed from play, the other is fled -> removed from play -> counts as slain.
This doesn't cause issues for most abilities because most abilities that trigger on being slain assume that the model is on the board. The Cities Phoenix's, Vulkite Berzerkers and Barak Thryng KO are a few examples, but there are more. Horrors cause an issue because they're worded differently but if you go through the logic Fleeing is not the same as Slain, it's just treated the same after the fact for effects like healing or scoring.
5 minutes ago, Daramiz said:This is silly. "Inch" has a set definition. If I want to go to outside games for a definition on "Replacement Effect" I could look at Magic the Gathering which has over a page of rules defining "Replacement Effects" (So much for being basic). Except in MtG 'When Pink Horror dies create two Blue Horror' WOULDN'T be a replacement effect but a triggered ability, so there goes that idea.
This is pretty close, the only issue is that AOS doesn't have the same timing rules as MTG so Triggered Abilities don't really work, so they all have to be modeled as replacement effects. Without a stack triggered abilities are basically a subset of replacement effects though so it works out (even with a stack they're still a subset but there triggered abilities simplify a few useful things).
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1 minute ago, Daramiz said:
Quote some rules for "look backs" and "replacement effects".
These are pretty basic game concepts so if you're having trouble understanding I can give you a few pointers, but GW doesn't tend to define their terms pretty well. Do you have the rules quote for what an inch or a foot is?
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1 hour ago, BillyOcean said:
Indeed! And then let's try to apply consistent logic to the Icon rule, where a lot of arguments are hinging on the FAQ's statement that Destiny Dice in a battleshock test count as unmodified. "Counts as" can't mean "different from" in one case, and not the other.
I will keep advocating for the position that both of these things are unclear and the Rules Team should be asked to publish a new, carefully-worded FAQ that accurately conveys their intent. I don't see this position as particularly controversial.
Nah, "Counts As" works for look backs. All dice rolls are look backs, you roll the dice and then look back at it to see how to resolve an event. "Counts as" works fine there. The Horror split is a replacement ability. It looks for a specific event (a model being slain) and then replaces the effect (instead of removing the model you remove the model and add in other models). Replacement effects can't be look backs because they have to happen when the event occurs.
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2 hours ago, NJohansson said:
The actual relevant wording is:
So we have - slain - remover from play.
Regarding Battle chock:
Once again - remove from play - count as slain (same meaning, reversed words). Note that the unit does not flee - not any of their models, simply remove from play - slain. Regarding the spawning:
Spawning triggers on slain...
Are people really arguing the semantic between counts as slain and purely slain?
I do get that people feel the need for additional nerfs (I am probably in the same camp feeling Tzeentch is still on the higher end of the power curve) but this is getting ridiculous.
"Counts as" is usually a technical term. It basically means that the thing happened for look back purposes, but you don't trigger any events. Teleportation is a big example, you can't move again after teleporting because you count as having moved, but you didn't actually do a move event so you don't trigger retreating or anything. This should be the same, the models count as being slain so they can be brought back, you can score, etc, but there's no actual event where they are slain so Horrors splitting wouldn't trigger.
EDIT: I may be thinking of 40k deep strike for the specific rule but I believe they use the same technical language for the most part.
AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion
in Order
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I think thunderers are still worth it but am not 100% sure how to use them. If they're out in the open and up close it feels like Arkanauts outperform them pound for pound, and if they're in the ironclad you really have to make sure you're screening the big monsters out because something like Archaeon can still murder it. There's no big weakness to exploit and they're solid so I don't want to get rid of them but I'm not exactly sure how I'm playing them.
One thing I'm looking at is Gotrek. He benefits a ton from the new rules (+1 to save is great, regenerating health is great, we don't really care about our other heroes...) and he hits hard enough that most armies can't afford to ignore him.