Grdaat

July 23, 2020

Just now, IrishCarBomb said:

I get it, the cost can be a lot. But every backer helps to propel this army into the future. If everyone buys a generic version then there would be no reason for them to update the army. It has to make financial sense for them too. By playing LoA, we all have chosen an underserved yet clandestine army which comes with its pros and cons—price being one of the cons.

Maybe if they updated the rules more people would buy them, like what happened in every other instance of them updating the rules for any army ever (except Tyranids in 7th edition).

It's not on the consumer to generate interest in the army. If GW isn't convinced by emails then there's nothing we can really do.

July 23, 2020

16 minutes ago, IrishCarBomb said:

First off, love your name!

But if you can purchase the Dwarves from Forgeworld (I know they are more expensive) then it will help to support the line and thus keep interest up for the army. I had to buy my two Deathshriekers from another site but supported Forgeworld and the LoA line with the rest of my purchases. If you are interested in the site where I bought the Deathshriker Rockets just PM me.

It's hard justifying the extra money for FW models unless there's a guarantee it would lead to them updating the rules. They cost so much more and not everyone has the budget for it.

July 23, 2020

On 7/21/2020 at 4:33 AM, El Syf said:

And Gotrek stayed the same. He is a negative play experience more so then Petrifex were in my opinion.

By contrast in every game I've played against Gotrek I've never been able to kill him. I've tried swamping him with horde units to tie him up, which doesn't take him too long to chew through and i've tried the other route of sending VLOZD + Morghasts into him for high rend, high damage attacks (which leads to disappointment as he just shrugs them off) and then spirit host for mortal wounds which he also gets a 3+ ward against! I now just refuse to play against lists with him in as I have found it to be no fun whatsover to play against. People moan about how bad Nagash was is; he's another 340 more points than the dwarf and nowhere near as survivable.

Play Drakfoot, who can kill him very easily, or just avoid him, he's not very fast.

July 20, 2020

Just now, Ravinsild said:

The Cities are the first strike points that Sigmar sent his Stormcast Eternals. They took the first ground and cleared them of chaos and are invaluable to transporation across the realms. It's like an interrealm high-way, but Chaos still holds the 8 points. Without the Cities and the gates they protect the realms would be isolated from each other making the forces against Chaos, and amongst themselves, much harder to collaborate logistically.

Except there's many ways they can get around them, as seen by the Seraphon, but I'm not going to argue too much on this point. The more we argue about it the further off-topic the thread goes.

July 16, 2020

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Storm of chaos doesn't matter, I would agree with you if GW actually kept it. I'm not moving the goal posts. Nothing tangible came from the storm of chaos because it was retconned into oblivion because GW didn't like the outcome.

You didn't specify which timeline you would or wouldn't accept, Storm of Chaos was canon for over half a decade before they went back on it and it's an example of how the setting did change. Even without it we have plotlines like vampires kidnapping the Everqueen's daughter and nearly starting a war between the Dwarfs and Elves when a team up between the two failed to rescue her.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Oh right so basically the same places that maintained the status quo for several years? Man Vampires are doing awesome just holding sylvania for several long years.

Except they were driven out of them and killed. Them returning was a major plot point, and the focus of an entire campaign which the Empire (in Franz's time) lost.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

As a vampire count player it would be nice to play a campaign where the vampires take over a portion of the empire than shaking their fists from sylvania.

Already happened, play Sigmar's Blood.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Wonder when they will completely capture stirland? Well, the world exploded who knows. It's great that you're referencing events from the past where they don't actually matter. Great job. Nice.

You asked me to do that, or did you forget?

You said you'd rescind your posts if I gave you the examples you wanted, and now that I have you say they don't matter because they're from 8th edition WHFB and it's in the past. Since you haven't rescinded your posts I'm going to call you a liar.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

I mean for example nothing really happened to Gorfang until the end times when they were moving to AOS. Man Gorbad did a smashing job against the empire! Until he died and failed in his conquest. I'm sure an event occuring in 1707 IC is quite relevant to what's happening in 8th edition and the world at large.

What are you talking about? Gorfang was killed by Thorgrim way before the End Times in a novella called Thorgrim. He was also a major character in the setting, without him Black Crag is open to invasion, the Badlands are exposed, Skarsnik loses any hope of Orc reinforcements and it turns the conquest of Karak Eight Peaks from a contested fight to a heavily Dwarf favoured engagement.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Bugman? Hmm we could of really used a campaign book there, would of been nice that in his vengeance the dwarfs would take back several holds. But they have to keep him on his revenge quest with a small group of rangers until he suddenly appears in end times.

There was a campaign, it happened in the White Dwarfs and the outcome was based off of Battle results players sent in.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Also I wonder when it comes to the Brass Keep when do you think chaos is going to get around to actually touching Hochland, middenheim or Ostland? You know, like taking it over?

Do you think they don't invade them? Because there's novels on that sort of thing and how they're repulsed or why they leave/crumble.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Middenheim would be crazy considering their defensive location! But it seems the lore is content with having the warriors of chaos sit there and repelling invaders from a derelict fortress.

Because Brass Keep is a defensive location, they need to wait for new armies before striking out. It isn't a nation unto itself. Also Middenheim didn't fall before precisely because it's a heavily defended location.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

And to let you know 8th was a set up for end times according to several sources and the writers. That's why the events like volkmar the grim being captured was part of 8th edition. Come on mate, it's widely known that in whfb nothing changed.

How can you say nothing changed while directly listing an example of it changing?

1 minute ago, shinros said:

I mean we can talk about Nuln. It is still overrun by skaven right?

No.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

I'm sure they didn't get any help from a dynamic duo to keep it from falling. Man, it would of been awesome to see Nuln destroyed and converted into a skaven city. Think of the stories that could of happened! Skaven, right there next to reikland! But we can't have that! Nuln survived and is rebuilding!

Except Nuln was ruined several times in the lore and the only reason it's around is because of the sentimental value of the place. Had it not been the birthplace of Magnus and former capital of the Empire, it would've been abandoned after Grom ran a train through it.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Books, especially ones from black library tell you about the location, the character and how they got there. They talk about the history of important locations. Whenever said locations are being written about in the current timeline they are normally always preserved in the end, why? Because the black Library writers aren't allowed to touch the status quo. This is a known fact.

That's why Gorfang survived the books- oh wait no. Well that's why the Orcs still have the Solland Runefang- oh wait.

You say it's a known fact, but it wasn't as far as WHFB was concerned.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

This whole movement of the storyline within the setting and making tangible changes in the setting is more of a recent phenomenon for 40k and AOS.

Not really, I don't recall a Fantasy edition where the story didn't change or move forward.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

There are plenty of interviews where they outright say, full on the setting for whfb is static and why they like writing for AOS because they can tell their own stories freely. I agree with them considering my time with the setting for 12+ years.

You must not have gotten that into it then, seeing as how you keep asking questioned that have easy answers or saying stuff that isn't true.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Also if it's not clear I'm being quite sarcastic in sections of this post.

I figured, but I might as well address them anyway.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

At the end of the day the reason WHY some people loved whfb so much because it DOESN'T change. Some people see it as a historical setting than one that constantly flows and changes. I'm going to keep my opinion thank you.

Anyone who's convinced WHFB didn't change is someone who didn't look further than the covers.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

I also still agree with ninth by the way.

You think Terra is disposable?

July 16, 2020

26 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Well, we don't know what happens if Excelsis falls.

But if we just look for power-level disasters that changed the setting or the whole game... I think that End Times beats everything followed by Age of Chaos and maybe Horus Heresy and the Fall.

I don't see too much diference, just time to develop the setting.

Btw, I think that we are going in circles and I can't see what you want accomplish with all this posts.

I don't know what to say and whatever I say, I know what you will answer.

The only thing I'm trying to accomplish is having a discussion about what people like in the setting and how they feel about it.

July 16, 2020

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

Storm of chaos got retconned. It doesn't matter, because GW weren't happy that chaos didn't win.

Nice shifting the goalposts. You asked if something happened and are now pretending it didn't matter. By that metric does the End Times no longer matter because AoS retconned many of the elements inside of it?

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

Edit:Calgar should of been killed in that encounter, but because he has a shiny new model that didn't happen.

Actually he didn't die because of previously established lore that was in place for a while before that fight and which Abaddon likely wasn't aware of.

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

Also the vengeful spirit got damaged(almost destroyed) by Aeldari. Forcing Abbadon to leave and in the end the imperials retook the skies above vigilus. Making another invasion more difficult. Calgar is now recovering in an apothecary tent, directing the war from afar. WOW such a great victory for chaos! Man Chaos had an amazing outcome for their model debut! Here's a new wazone to have Abbadon slam his face in for several years like cadia! Let's be real Calgar is not going to be in that bed for long.

Why do you think that was supposed to be a Chaos victory?

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

This whole post shows me you haven't actually read anything properly like Ninth said including whfb. I think we're done.

You're disregarding the past, ignoring what was established and asking questions that are directly answered in the works I mentioned, and you have the gall to say I didn't read the lore?

Read the lore first, then come back here, unless you wish to join NinthMusketeer in claiming that Terra is an unimportant location.

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

Also nothing tangible happens in WHFB books, they normally preserve the status quo if you actually read them or they tell the history of a character.

Just like what happened with Gorbad Ironclaw- oh wait. Well at least we have a fun backstory with Gorfang Rotgut- oh wait no. Well I'm sure Bugman's Brewery has a treasured history- oh whoops. Well at least we can turn to the minor Empire provinces like Sylvania to see- oh no, not there too! Well at least the Empire capital of Nuln will be untouched- oh damn, not even that!

Nothing tangible happens my ass.

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

If you can point to somewhere on the map where Chaos or Vampire counts have taken something over within the empire I'll rescind my post. I'll wait. Give me something in the current timeline when Karl Franz was ruling.

Brass Keep (Chaos), Castle Templehoff (Vampires) Castle Drakenhoff (Vampires). There were attempts to fight them off while Franz ruled, but they ended in failure, with the last one ending with the capture of Volkmar the Grim in 8th edition.

July 16, 2020

Actually something I've just noticed was the little notice in the new General's Handbook, Legends units are no longer legal without the express permission of your opponent and without the express invitation of events, and all of our units are now in the Legends category.

Well it was fun while it lasted, but I probably won't be making any new lists for them since nearly everything I use is now squatted. I don't like having to jump through hoops to play an army, and I don't like needing my opponent's permission to use them, especially since I don't know everyone I'll be playing and some newer players will just go "I'd rather stick to "official" armies."

July 16, 2020

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Er what? So far in the books and supplement material the only people who are having trouble travelling is Imperium Nihilus who don't have access to the astronomicon.

Yes, because the Astronomicon is on Terra, no Terra, no Astronomicon at all.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

At the moment the Cadian system has been fortified and has turned into another warzone where chaos and the Imperium are slapping each other again and warbands have essentially broken off to raid worlds. In way NOTHING has changed. I also hold the opinion GW are doing nothing with Nihilus or the tear since now, according to vigilus and other material there are stable routes to get to the other side of the rift.

Because of the emergence of the previous three players and Crusade I'd just mentioned.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

War of the Spider:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/12/war-zone-cadiagw-homepage-post-2/

Start of 8th:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/06/new-warhammer-40000-war-zone-cadia-may6gw-homepage-post-4/

Okay what cities fell, then what happened?

Look up Storm of Chaos.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Has chaos taken over the land of an elector count and held it?

Yes.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Has the vampire counts ever amounted to anything than making mean faces at the empire?

Yes.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Had the dark elves ever taken a portion of Ulthaun and held it? Forcing the High elves to turn to allies for help? Have we ever seen a lizardman waging war in the empire? Have we ever seen the Tomb Kings invading anywhere important other than protecting their tombs? I could go on.

There are entire novels that go into those sorts of details if you'd like to look them up.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

While is AOS, we have this happening. Different armies face each other, each alliance have great wins and permanent losses since the realm-gate wars. Each faction gets their time in the sun and also allows a player to have "your dudes" easily fit into the setting. Ironjaws have taken back the Ghur allgate, pushing back both Chaos and making an enemy of Sigmar. Archaon held the realm of metal realmgate, while also killing a recurring character from the novels, Sigmar has basically taken Ashqy by storm. While Death have essentially taken back their allgate and made a beachhead for further invasions within the allpoints itself (chaos waste equivalent). Something Sigmar hasn't done. Those are some of the tangible events I listed off my head.

Those would be tangible if they needed those specific Realmgates to travel when the Seraphon have shown us you do not.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

According to Blood of Baal psychic awakening, the blood angels are handling the training of Psykers since they cannot easily access the Black Ships due to the rifts. Of course people are exploding. Enslavers haven't been relevant in years, don't see the point of addressing that.

Cannot easily access them does not mean they cannot access them, and Enslavers are still around, saying they're not relevant is just trying to pretend they don't exist.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Commonly across most material, sections of Imperium Nihilus have banded together and make small jumps because most navigators cannot see the light provided by the Astronomicon.

And they're much more vulnerable while doing this.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

I'll reference my previous point again, according to warzone cadia warbands are still just raiding. Chaos is still throwing itself at the "new" wall in the warzone. Where is this massive chaos offensive by the traitor legions overrunning the galaxy and getting to terra?

Read the Gathering Storm, you see it in there and also see how without the combined efforts of the Imperium and Eldar that they would've permanently killed Guilliman, Cawl, and made very short work of Ultramar and the wider Imperium.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Seems to be GW is focusing on the Tyranids heading to terra according to psychic awakening Pariah. So what exactly are chaos doing save for that last warzone on Vigilus where Abbadon couldn't properly handle even Calgar?

He did handle Calgar, have you read it?

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

[Watch station Hadrax-3-7, Sol System southern border-sector 64/H]

"But now… Throne, I do not know how to describe what we are seeing. Xenos craft… living xenos craft, vast leviathans of the deep void are spilling like vomit from the storm’s maw. The stuff of the warp clings to their hides then tatters away as though it cannot touch them. Tendrils writhe in the dark of space. Compound eyes glitter, impervious to the killing cold of space. They have… scented us, I think. They swarm closer by the hour, and I am not fool enough to believe beasts so nightmarish could be benign. What is, in this damned galaxy? Please, for the love of the Emperor, if anyone receives this be advised, there are hundreds of these living ships, maybe thousands, and they are pushing for the Sol Sector. Emperor save us all."

Seems Nihilus is surviving just fine without being able to truly see the Emperor's light, perhaps if Terra falls to the Tyranids we might actually get some tangible grim darkness into the setting again. (I doubt it, Tyranids constantly lose.)

Is that why there's reports of planets falling and fleets going missing? Not exactly what I'd call "doing fine" when their existence is a struggle.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

On AOS, it's both. That's what I like about it. You may not obviously, I like that they do both because there are players who care more about what the armies are doing than what Nagash or whatever Sigmar is planning. On the Timeline, I view it in the case of mythology, there are significant events within the Age of Myth, Chaos and now Sigmar. Players can follow those events within the age or play out the battles. Timeline's can also constrain things as well, look at 40k. At the start of 8th we were beyond the Idomintus crusade, then suddenly with PA they went back before the crusade and now 9th? We are actually going back to see the Idomintus crusade.

What's wrong with exploring a timeline? It helps show how everything is connected and give you a better picture of the setting as a whole, not to mention it catalogues the setting's best triumphs and losses without making the player look for those themselves.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

The setting that you hold in high regard, can't seem to settle on a time either. It's actually a complaint of many on bolter and chainsword. Hence why I prefer how AOS does it. Anyway, I know you will respectfully disagree so how about we leave it that?

So because GW retcons stuff, you'd rather have nothing be set in stone? I guess that's an opinion, it's just not one I share.

July 16, 2020

10 minutes ago, Beliman said:

But this doesn't make Cadia more special than, for ex., Excelsis.

If Excelsis falls under Gordrakk, Azyr will be in danger and it's one of the biggest cities in Ghur with a giant splinter of Malus, even Tzeentch is a bit worried about that.

I know that 40k has a lot of books and codex to support Cadia (I bought the Dark Eldar trilogy two days ago btw, realy excited to read it!), but let's be honest here, Excelsis is 3 years old with just a few notes in some battletomes and (I think) 2 books. It's not even fair to compare them.

Hey, there's the kind of stakes I was looking for. I wouldn't say that they're on the same level, since as soon as Cadia fell the galaxy was ripped in half, but at least that's something.

As far as establishing them goes, Cadia was established with less time in it's existence compared to Excelsis, so I think it's fair to compare them.

July 16, 2020

9 hours ago, JPjr said:

a setting that, let's be honest, was developed & made up and retconned numerous times over the course of decades, and still had ridiculously large gaps in it.

I love the old WHFB setting, I still engage with it all the time via WFRP but it wasn't some perfectly thought out thing that arrived on day 1 as a perfectly conceived concept with all its history and lore in place, as flawless as if it was communicated to Rick Priestly by god himself. and carved on tablets of stone, obsidian stele, a flaming book or some golden plates.

I mean ages ago I posted a picture of the map of the old world, released around the same point in time of WHFB as we are now into AoS and it was, let's say, still a work in progress... and then, just to take one small example, 20 or 30 years into the game they could barely figure out amongst themselves whether Albion, a country based on the place the people making the game actually lived in, was 1 island, several islands or even existed on maps.

I never said it was perfect, just that it was fleshed out. I also never said that it was immediately fleshed out or that it didn't have retcons along the way, it obviously did, but the holes in the setting were patched up (until 8th edition and End Times anyway) and the writers didn't approach it with the intention of leaving everything as vague as possible so that they could have all the freedom in the world.

Even that map you link shows more effort to flesh out the setting than anything in current AoS because it's trying to show you the full scale of the setting, and making it clear that this is it. AoS has only recently started to include maps, but even then they're only for small portions within it.

What I'm really hoping for is that AoS continues to add maps to the setting to show us what's going on within it, showing us something like the surroundings of Hammerhal it and why that place can't be replaced if it's destroyed would be a great step forward in terms of investment and world building.

9 hours ago, JPjr said:

also I should say that personally I don't think retcons are (necessarily) a bad thing.

we're not dealing with the work of a singular auteur here*, we're working with multiple authors writing over several decades to accommodate the commercial whims of a toy company. things that make sense at some point won't at a later date, people will slip things in that seem innocuous that in later times might have massive** ramifications or you know be a bit 😬 when viewed through today's lens and need excising.

there will be good writers and bad writers and it's a constant process of editing and tidying that work, and if something doesn't fit or work and something more interesting can be done without upsetting the entire apple cart then why not. as I said it's not an allegedly infallible religious text it's some background to why this little plastic soldier is trying to kill this little plastic soldier.

like statues of racist men if bits of lore are no longer relevant or useful to us today then tear it down, future generations can rebuild it if they so want.

*And even then look at Tolkien's Legendarium, one of the most researched and thought out fantasy universes, he was editing, revising & changing stuff he'd written decades before right up to his death.

** relatively speaking, of course

Retcons are going to happen, but as I said before, I'm surprised at the speed they're happening. Retcons in Fantasy were usually separated by 4-8 years, which is enough to gather feedback on what worked and what didn't. AoS seems to think that if it stops putting out constant content it'll shrivel up and die.

9 hours ago, Beliman said:

What makes Cadia and all this planets so important? I'm starting war40k and I really like what I'm reading.

Cadia was essential in preventing the warp from overtaking large parts of the galaxy, and without Terra humanity has no access to relatively safe FTL travel.

1 hour ago, shinros said:

Ironically on the 40k lore reddit people feel the opposite, 40k lore is going downhill while it's the opposite for AOS. In my opinion the lore was changed to give the writers a wider space to add or change things. In fantasy nothing changed. While here, cities can rise and fall, factions can win or lose without the setting being destroyed. People can enjoy their faction being in the sun for a moment, you gave an example the celestant prime vs Olynder.

Except things did change in Fantasy, cities fell, Bugman lost his brewery, characters got killed. Why care about that sort of conflict in AoS when it leads nowhere and doesn't matter?

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Those sorts of conflicts is what people largely care about, at the moment from my perspective in the 40k lore reddit people are tired of factions getting slapped by the space marines. Hence why many dislike the psychic awakening.

Now, to go back to a previous point. It wouldn't be the end of the setting if Terra fell-

Hold the phone, I never said it would end the setting, just the Imperium.

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why? Because they would be forced to adapt. Half of the Imperium does not actually have any access to astronomicon, yet the setting still carries on. Those in nihilus now make multiple small jumps instead of large ones. The setting is large enough to allow such changes.

And they still export their Psykers because without the Emperor, they'd be vulnerable to outside influence. Daemonic invasion, Enslavers, that sort of thing and given how many Psykers are appearing right now, it would be an attack from all angles that the Imperium would not survive.

Hell, the Enslavers on their own could wreck the vast majority of it if there was nobody to alter the weaker Psykers.

Also there are still types of Astronomicon beacons in the Dark Imperium that act as a sort of booster for the Emperor. There was even an Alpha Legion book where they were trying to find it, alongside the other Chaos Space Marines.

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Many felt before the fall of cadia that if chaos gets past it they will overrun the galaxy, but guess what? The opposite happened, they got blunted pretty quickly so the setting can carry on as I said.

Do you think they're not still running rampant? They are, the only things that set them back a little bit was the Primaris Marines, Guilliman and the Custodes finally coming out. Without those (and Guilliman's crusade) that would've been it.

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So your argument to me is falling flat on it's face. To me the point of making AOS larger is to allow more room for "your dudes" instead of being the stooge of a elector count or one of the many characters.

Firstly I'd suggest you do more reading on why the Imperium needs the Emperor, and secondly AoS has an odd identity crises where it wants to be about the player's armies, but at the same time keeps changing its mind to go back to its standby heroes. It also doesn't help that they keep doing timeskips and seem to avoid any cohesive timeline like it's a plague.

I will say that I do love the idea of making armies that play off the existing ones in the setting, but that's yet another thing AoS needs to flesh out more. The current rules make it hard to personalize your army and the new build-a-character rules were just disappointing.

July 16, 2020

5 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

At this point it is clear to me why you find the AoS fluff so vague; you have not read it. I'm out.

Do you think the Celestant Prime and Olynder can permanently die? If so I've got some news for you about the battle that happened right before Katakros was released, as well as the end fight of Wrath of the Everchosen...

Also if you think that I haven't read the lore then you haven't read the thread.

EDIT: It's also very poor form to accuse somebody else of not knowing the lore, right after you say that Terra in 40k is a replaceable planet, and that it wouldn't matter if it was destroyed.

July 16, 2020

Just now, NinthMusketeer said:

When Glymmsforge was overrun and Katakros released, they can't just 'rebuild' him back into his box.

Except they could just break Katakros and put him in a new box, therefore reversing it.

Just now, NinthMusketeer said:

When realmgates are corrupted or destroyed, that can't be reversed.

A) the Seraphon showed you can make new Realmgates, and B) you can bar Realmgates shut, which is what Sigmar did.

Just now, NinthMusketeer said:

Shyish is now slowly being pulled into the Nadir, no amount of walls will fix that.

The places within Shyish are moving to the Nadir, I've never seen anyone say the realm was shrinking. This also goes with what I was saying about how the cities are disposable.

Just now, NinthMusketeer said:

I could equally say 'none of those planets are irreplaceable, they can just rebuild on another planet or space station, or maybe there is a near-identical planet a system over should they fall.'

No you cannot, look what happened when Cadia fell for example. If Terra fell then that's it, humanity's screwed, the Imperium's over and safe FTL travel is permanently gone for them. That you think Terra of all places is not irreplaceable blows my mind.

Just now, NinthMusketeer said:

Also, you never did provide an example of a setting that is fully fleshed-out.

I wonder what setting AoS replaced and is coming back I was referring to...

July 16, 2020

5 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I think, in AoS, at one point the whole of Cities will get squatted in lore, but that's more because GW doesn't like it and would get rid of the faction. Probably.

That would make books consequential, but it's a business decision with a few books as additional income.

At least then it would feel like there were actual stakes to a conflict.

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Contrary, when planning the fall of Cadia, it would be an excellent timing to replace the Cadian sets with others. The Cadians already made would be the guards in service off planet, but slowly, they would stop being the majority. That would give an excellent in-lore reason to update an aging line. They didn't. They didn't even change the name of the unit.

They don't really need to so long as they explain in-universe why Cadians act and are recognized as Cadians, and they did just that.

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As for named characters, it was my understnding that they only very rarely truly are in danger. Most are just miraculously victorious or saved.

That depends, while it's not often that it happens, there have been many characters killed off who were prominent in the lore, on the tabletop, or both. One of the biggest examples that comes to mind is Aun'Va.

4 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

How is that different from a fight between Abaddon and Calgar? We know from the onset both of them are going to somehow survive, at least AoS allows some characters to actually go down in combat without needing to invent some plot contrivance to save them.

Because both Abaddon and Calgar can die permanently, the Celestant Prime and Lady Olynder cannot.

July 16, 2020

Just now, NinthMusketeer said:

No, that just is not true. The AoS fluff often goes into a good amount of detail as to why specific locations are important. Hell, the CoS battletome is essentially 'cities that are important: allegiance abilities'.

And none of those cities are irreplaceable. None of those cities are places that cannot be rebuilt, or hand waved away by having a near-identical city revealed just a mile down the road should they fall. Because of this, those cities are still just places, not places of importance.

July 16, 2020

6 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

When Cadia fell, no faction was gone, and Cadians are still quite numerous in the store (8 sets starting with that name).

Now I don't know what's right. I hate removal of warscrolls, but I also really can't care about a book that's written as high stakes, when the result either doesn't matter or is predetermined so as to not upset existing factions.

Why would you need to kill a faction to make a drastic change? That sounds like you're shifting the goalposts because it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

The second point I agree with you on, and that's also exactly my point in AoS. In 40k for example, if Guilliman gets his head cut off then that's it, he's gone for good. In AoS when the Celestant Prime died, we weren't able to see him fighting during the time he took off to get better. With that in mind, why care about a fight between him and Olynder? Both will be back next week regardless of who wins.

This was also something I went into detail on in my first post on this thread.

July 16, 2020

3 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Wait, earlier you said this:

"Except 40k has very critical planets we know to be unique, that isn't the case for AoS because it's intentionally poorly defined to give its writers as much freedom as possible."

Literally replace "40k" with "AoS" and "planets" with "cities" to have you perfectly destroy your own argument. You are telling me that was not sarcastic? You say AoS is poorly defined to give writers freedom, which is again the same as 40k; the overwhelming majority of planets we know nothing about!

Which city is AoS's Terra/Cadia/Fenris/Armageddon/Baal/Ultramar/Vigilus? 40k gives reasons for why their major planets are important, each contributes to those around it whereas AoS's cities are just cities. If they're destroyed, they're replaceable. The same isn't true of the planets I mentioned, just look at what happened when Cadia fell.

AoS is like 40k if there were no major planets.

July 16, 2020

6 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Completely agree, that's why I think it could be healthy for our forum (and mods) to discuss in a post dedicated to that.

We're pretty much over it already though, there isn't much more to say. It would just be a bunch of reposts unless you want to open it up to more retcons, but if you do that I think it would turn into a cesspool pretty quickly.

A lot of people would get mad at the retcons, and then others would be mad at people who are mad at the retcons.

July 16, 2020

Just now, Beliman said:

We should start a new topic really. It's nice to talk about this without starting a pointless war betwen "I like X so it's better than Y" vs "I like Y so it's better than X".
Not sure if we are going to find any answer really but we can try .

I honestly don't think anyone's doing that, the worst this got was whether or not something was retconned.

July 16, 2020

8 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

See, that was not what I was doing. At all. Now you are just bending it into something else and making this toxic, for no reason. If you disagree, just disagree. If you don't understand, just say so. There is nothing wrong with that.

I think maybe Grdaat's take-it-all-literally responses may be throwing things out of context, too. It is one of the problems with sarcasm in a text-based discussion. Rest assured that once jokes are put aside no one actually believes that a bit of fluff is literally analogous to the price of miniatures, that the people of Greywater literally eat invasive plant growth to keep it away, or that fluff-skeptics literally care about the refraction rate of Aqshian crystal.

I was not being fully sarcastic (just mostly), and my points about the hobby store compared to 40 Starbucks were honest (if a little absurd). If I know the stakes, it's easier to get invested, simple as that. If you keep making it seem like there might be a big change because a city might falls in the same setting where a new Empire gets eaten by the Ogors every Tuesday, well I think you can see why it's hard to take that seriously.

This is why I stated earlier that by upping the scope they ruined the scale. It's like trying to get invested in the life of a fly amid a million other flies.

July 16, 2020

Just now, NinthMusketeer said:

Do you have an example of such a setting we can compare to?

There's a setting this one replaced and which is making a return you might have heard of...

July 16, 2020

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't we take a Sacred Protector with the Graves and Broach and put him on terrain for a 2+ re-rollable save that is immune to Rend?

July 16, 2020

1 minute ago, JPjr said:

And some people prefer pizza to a curry. Which of course is fine, you just have to wonder why five years after Pizza Hut closed and reopened as Tikka Hut they’re still coming in everyday to complain that they can’t have mozzarella and pepperoni on their naan bread, instead of going next door to Pizza-2-Go.

tbh I’ve totally lost the point of this discussion, if there ever was one, but this analogy was too stupid not to share

If Tikka Hut was using the exact same ingredients and equipment but with a slightly different recipe I could see why some people are bothered they can no longer get their pepperoni mozza.

Should probably get back on topic after this, but so long as we're temporarily jumping off we might as well commit to it.

July 16, 2020

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Yep, there are a lot of questions that you wil not find any answer, that's 100% true. AoS has a bit of mythos-like background that can't be explained like Fantasy. Why Zeus had a child after being hit with an Axe on his head? You can answer to that type of questions if you really try, but that's not the point.

I must say that the in the last 3 years, the background has evolved a lot, we had the Core Book that even if it doesn't explain everything, it helped a lot. This year, we had Soulbound that it's the first RP book that did a really good job with the central part of Aqshy.

But again, that's a bit offtopic.

Both of those also raised a lot more questions but that's getting off topic. I think the point is some people just prefer a more grounded setting where nearly every question can be answered.

July 16, 2020

4 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Didn't want to be agressive in my last answer, sorry!!

My point has nothing to do with that type of questions, I just wrote a joke to make my argument a bit more clear.

I was just advicing that there are dudes that don't even play the game (well, some of them can try a game from time to time) and just try to find any hole (or something that it's not explained) and usually ends with the same phrase that I mentioned before: "look, that's what I was talking about, Fantasy is a lot better than AoS!!".

They are not here to be part of the community, they are here to upset people. And doesn't matter how many of their questions you can answer, they are going to find another question (or just dismiss your answer).

My argument was just that, an advice to take care of that people. Hope it's a bit more clear and it has nothing to do with the lore or the game itself.

To give them some slight bit of credit, I also think the game has more holes than a sponge, but discussing them here would get us way off topic, so I'll just say that people relatively new to the setting are going to have a lot of questions since it's so far out there, and there aren't good answers for a lot of them at the moment.

I get that some people do it just to antagonize, but there are other people who do the same thing honestly, and who will ask questions like "In Ghur, where does the ocean go when the land eats it?" And are genuinely curious/confused by it.

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