firtahl
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Posts posted by firtahl
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The question I ask myself for a tournament is how my list kills 1 mega a turn. I'm not seeing that kind of reliable dmg over 3 or 4 turns in this list.
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Had a difference in rules reading today in a game with Belakor. On his ability to reroll hits, i read the rule to say that there needed to be at least 1 plague bearer, bloodletter, damonette, AND horror within 18". My opponents read was that it only requires 1 unit from the list of basic demon warscrolls. Can anyone confirm which interpretation is correct?
Thanks!
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Has anyone heard what's going on with Kroak? He's no longer available/Sold Online according to the US site: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Seraphon-Lord-Kroak
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On 2/27/2021 at 7:29 AM, Salyx said:
1 or 2 Khorgoraths can fit into every list. They offer good Value for their price. For 100 points, they have a decent offensive Potential, pretty good in Skullfiend Tribe. They can heal, are reasonably durable and easy Bloodtithe.
So why does no one play them? First of all, they are hard to get and only have one pose. So getting several is hard. Furthermore, they only fit into one Bataillon, which completely depends on a 5 wounds 4+ save hero. I hate those bataillons, they can be nullified so easily. So they very likely increase your Drops. If you take one, there are few things better for 100 points. However, if you take 2, you might as well get a unit of Skullreapers for that price, or a unit of Marauders, a Demon Prince... These are just better. 5 Skullreapers do 7.7 damage(10 damage with re-rolls), excluding special weapon, against a 4+ save, whereas Khorgoraths only do around 6 damage. Ok, with a Cp in Skullfiend Tribe, they do 10.5 damage, but for a Cp you can as well have a unit of Marauders or a Bloodthirster pile in twice. Other disadvantage is their bravery of 6, so if you play bigger units, you may Lose another one from Battleshock, especially, if your enemy has some - bravery.
So, having one is always a good deal, if you want to have more, you have to tailor your army around them, with Skullfiend Tribe and some Bravery Buffs, because you might want to play larger units to focus your damage.
Another approach would be to totally go for MSU, not care about Drops and just swarm the Board with Single Khorgoraths, Bloodreavers, Wrathmongers, etc. all the cheap-is units.
I've run 9 korgorath as msu in skulltaker. At the time they were about 25 usd each on eBay. With skulltaker and some support they are outrageous, though I've always lost on points since model count is so low. I've gotten pretty close though, maybe just needs some practice. When you go full meme tho you're not really playing to win since you've already won in your heart.
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My experince has been that they can compete in mid level games, but don't do well in matches vs popular meta lists. In my case I've played against Kroak seraphon and Katakros/archaon OBR. The problem I run into is that to win my lists tend to need too much to go right. There's not enough room for error or random chance to really hold up. When the lists work its great, but most of the time I hold ground to t3 and then my lines crumble and things break through or I'm straight tabled. The only thing keeping me in games is using Belakor's ability to hamstring a big threat for 1-2 turns. Which is probably why i end up folding in t3 when theres nothing left to slow the opponents down.
That said, getting 20-30 free pink horrors was too much. Getting 10-15 doesn't feel like enough since you also loose the command of the banner. I'm sure there's some competitive lists out there, but in a shooting meta we don't charge t1, we aren't hyper durable, and we don't have reliable shooting with synergy. Hard to hold up until things shift as far as i can tell. I'm curious is anyone has had more luck against seraphon, tzeench, or kharadron.
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5 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
Except you put forth almost no valid point. You mostly make assumptions about how you could counter, too bad you won't build your army to counter only this build in a tournament. Even your "counters" are pretty weak tbh. You assume that you will get a spell cast or that you will do this and that which is mostly based on chance. The charging libs are not based on chance, they just will do what they do which is super-opressive.
LOL. My bad I forgot how out of meta Deepstrike, Changehost, Karadron, Seraphon, magic and mortal wounds are. Fun fact, if you read the post you'd see I already addressed what you say. Ill help you out and quote it.
7 hours ago, firtahl said:If the argument is "what if their teleport doesn't go off", that means you're admitting they have a way out and maybe its not as bleak as you say.
Anyway, if the list of tools in each army is so obviously wrong, why not just respond with a similar list showing everyone how wrong it is point by point. Saying there's no valid points and then providing no actual examples seems to me like some desperate grasping at straws. The reality is that basic tools like screening keep it all under control, but hey, if you want to pretend that teleporting tarpit units is somehow a brand new game breaking mechanic then I guess its your life to live.
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42 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:
you don‘t get the point: They block you, the attacks are a nice Bonus. This is an objective game. You don‘t win by killing the liberators, you re-enter the game after killing them. They can also be put to a 2+ rr 1s.
If you read the post the youd know the point is they dont have to attack the liberators, nearly everyone has tools to mitigate getting charged by a bunch of weak units.
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31 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:
You shove 80+ wounds with at least a 3+ save and rerollable 1s straight Into the enemy formation, you bubble wrap almost an entire army while clubbing them with 3+, 3+,-,1 attacks. Meanwhile your second battalion controls the entire board and scores points. Combine that with Gabriel sureheart that increases your charge range by +3 for every CP spent and or The +6 inch pregame move of a Stormhost and you‘re DEEP inside the enemy‘s formation. Luckily there‘s no battalion that makes you swim in CP.
By the time the enemy has managed to break free of your Liberators the game is already lost.
Most armies can‘t handle that at all and there is nothing your opponent can do to stop it except trying to get the first turn, which is hard since the SCE Army will have 2-3 Drops.
Comparison:
an average AoS Army has about 120-125 wounds.
So lets look at this OP damage from the big scary Liberator 40 block using the 3,3,-,1 stats you call out vs a number of saves RR nothing:
2+ 0.99
3+ 3.95
4+ 8.89
5+ 15.8
6+ 24.69
So its not impressive AVG damage for the points, no shocker there. +1 on libs makes their plush pillow fists into firm pillow fists. Another +1 to hit isn't going to blow this up. But lets be fair to the crux of the complaint which revolves around the idea that 40 libs on 3+ RR1 is beyond the limits of "most" armies when it can get you in your deployment top of T1. Why don't we list all the armies and see which ones might not have an answer to this style.
*NOTE every list can win and that includes the front line liberators, but we are just asking if there are tools in the other armies to deal with a bunch of trash in their front yard. If the argument is "what if their teleport doesn't go off", that means you're admitting they have a way out and maybe its not as bleak as you say. Every plan and counter can fail, so if they cant get out 100% of the time that doesn't make the STE list OP. it just means the STE list is viable (which I think most people agree that it is very viable.)
- Beasts of Chaos (Chaos) Almost anything can give BoC a hard time, lets be real here, but hey reliable board edge summoning so they aren't trapped.
- Blades of Khorne (Chaos) Blood thirstier counter charge can break out, lost of cheap MSU deaths allows summoning elsewhere on the board. Tyrant's of blood are going to wreck your life.
- Disciples of Tzeentch (Chaos) Changehost teleporting, you're doing them a favor by allowing their flamers to blow you up T1 at close range. Pinks laugh in Rorschach while yelling "I'm not trapped with you, you're trapped in here with me."
- Hedonites of Slaanesh (Chaos) Just just charged 40 depravity into the keepers. Don't deploy near them? Great, they have countered your play by dictating no-go zones.
- Maggotkin of Nurgle (Chaos) I'm not as familiar with the MoN lists, but pinning them in would limit their contagion points. Might be rough if they just run a ton of blight kings like I've seen. Ill give STE the benefit of the doubt here.
- Skaven (Chaos) WLC those heroes and the battle shock off the troops who cant get a CP to stay. High saves? Welcome to mortal wound town. Skryre is popular, so I don't think this is a stretch, not like it requires moulder or eshin which is not usually run.
- Slaves to Darkness (Chaos) Gonna just yeet some marauder/Chaos warrior blocks behind you with veil of darkness which I don't think I've ever seen anyone NOT take.
- Flesh-Eater Courts (Death) Terrorgheists lol
- Legions of Nagash (Death) Old book, and nagash cant catch a break. Ill give STE this one since I cant remember the last time I saw LoN have a strong play in general.
- Nighthaunt (Death) Put half the army in deepstrike. Not pinned in now. Sadly you're still nighthaunt but that's not what we are looking at here.
- Ossiarch Bonereapers (Death) Please charge my mortek guard so you can mitigate the slowness that is one of my army's flaws. Then get mowed over.
- Gloomspite Gitz (Destruction) They are going to screen and Hand of Gork into the backfield, because like who isn't running HoG.
- Mawtribes (Destruction, Beastclaw Raiders merged with Gutbusters) They spread out their deployment and then you maybe get 2 stonehorns, but then...you're in combat with the stonehorns. Cry as they play the dancing coffin meme while your units experience melee with multiple stonehorns. The rest of the army goes monster truck rally in the backfield.
- Orruk Warclans (Destruction, Ironjawz merged with Bonesplitterz) Same as Gloomspite with Hand of Gork, but they can also add a counter charge with the rest of the army for double jeopardy.
- Sons of Behemat (Destruction) They will literally walk over your front lines with longshanks and kite you around the map with their 20-30 model count bodies controlling objectives ignoring scenario control rules to their advantage.
- Cities of Sigmar (Order) Couple be a problem, they don't have a teleport that I'm aware of and I'm not remembering a bunch of mortal wounds. Not super familiar with the army though, so giving this to STE as a binifit of the doubt.
- Daughters of Khaine (Order) Fast deepstrike flyers and you charge their deathstar that screens with some chaff. Why would you charge the DoK deathstar with libs? Because loosing is fun maybe.
- Fyreslayers (Order) Deepstrike that fat unit of hearth guard, its not like Lib trash will kill anything anyway.
- Idoneth Deepkin (Order) Deepstrike those eels ftw
- Kharadron Overlords (Order) Fly high, pew hard
- Lumineth Realm-lords (Order) Gonna mortal wound your heroes off and then bravery shenanigans your blocks off the board with even more mortal wounds.
- Seraphon (Order) 100% reliable teleports, summoning, board wide mortal wound spam, OH MY
- Stormcast Eternals (Order) If they aren't a mirror match then they are half in the sky and not stuck in their deployment.
- Sylvaneth (Order) Going to get around with the wild woods, though you can try and screen them out, i still think this counts as having the mobility to get around if they screen correctly.
I dont think 3/24 counts as "most armies"
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2 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:
I think people are always primed to complain about the rules for the poster-factions in Warhammer. But unlike 40k, AOS has been spreading the rules-love around to (mostly) all other factions, and Stormcast are never at the same level as Marines in terms of releases and rules.
I was actually coming in to ask if the +1 to hit from SoC means that swords are solidly the bottom choice for liberators now
I much prefer the look of the swords, but a 3+/3+ sounds a lot better than a 2+/4+
The real advantage to the hammers is that SCE have a number of ways to get +1 hit. That means its easy to get 2+/3 on hammers, but swords only ever sit at 2+/4+ due to the general lack of +1 wound. Without buffs they are close dmg wise, but once you stack some + hit the hammers start coming out ahead.
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16 hours ago, Marcvs said:
Today's Honest Wargamer video discussed some lists inspired by the Broken Realm book. Starting around the 1 hour mark Darren Watson discusses a list based on the Stormkeep with the new battalions (Patrol and Wardens) and a lot of liberators
The idea of teleporting 9" away from the enemy and being able to get Sureheart from your deployment zone to a point that gets 30-60 libs wholly within 12" is divorced from reality. Furthermore, he's talking about getting the castellants's +1 save on both units, but they are back in your deployment zone and use their ability in the hero phase, so there is no way you get them into position for that not-reading-the-rules reality he's describing in turn 1. I doubt you even get them in turn 2 unless you're spending a command point or two maxing your run rolls.
Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to like in these battalions, I'm just not impressed with the breakdown of a scenario that's not based in any realistic game scenario I can imagine. Maybe I'm missing something obvious that brings this all together? Roast me if I am.
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If a unit of decimators attacks a garrisoned terrain feature like a building, do they count the models in the garrison when calculating attacks? Is it the same for garrisoned KO ships?
Thanks!
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2 hours ago, meatpipeline said:
You don't need to use Belakor in Legion of Chaos Ascendant. I can't seem to find a rule that says you need to use him in the LoCA subfraction: Legion of the First Prince. This subfaction is built around Belakor, so if you don't use him you lose out on the subfaction's Ability & Command Ability (both require Belakor).
All the abilities are either for him or require him to be on the board. Maybe the spell doesn't need him? Taking it and not him makes no sense.
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4 hours ago, Verminlord said:
You might try investing in some 10-20 man giant rat units to screen for your ogors/hell pits. Your hammers are very squishy. Maybe take one unit of 6 ogors, give screaming bell death frenzy to put on them and invite your opponent to charge them. Have your hell pits behind screens and use the 40 blob to camp objective(s). You could probably drop one of the MM too.
I like the advice! This gave me an extra 30 pts, so i added the palisade to help with screening if I'm lucky enough to get it off. I'll give it a shot using the following once I've got the last 2 HBA's built unless anyone else has ideas/opinions.
Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Skavenbrew
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
Master Moulder (100)
6 x Rat Ogors (270)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
10 x Giant Rats (60)
10 x Giant Rats (60)
10 x Giant Rats (60)
3 x Packmasters (60)
Hell Pit Abomination (220)
Hell Pit Abomination (220)
Hell Pit Abomination (220)
Fleshmeld Menagerie (160)
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 159
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I'm looking for a moulder list I can run just to keep things spicy. Below is my current list, my curious if there is any feedback on how to improve. Right now im thinking the 2 HBA's run of one side with the ogres, rats, packmasters and bell up the other. Thoughts?
Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Skavenbrew
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
Master Moulder (100)
Master Moulder (100)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
4 x Rat Ogors (180)
4 x Rat Ogors (180)
3 x Packmasters (60)
Hell Pit Abomination (220)
Hell Pit Abomination (220)
Hell Pit Abomination (220)
Fleshmeld Menagerie (160)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 142-
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On 7/22/2020 at 1:11 PM, Mark Williams said:
This is my current Gotrek list. I’ve been doing very well with it.
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Lord-Castellant (120)
- General
- Command Trait: We Cannot Fail
- Artefact: God-forged Blade
Knight-Incantor (120)
- Spell: Lightning Blast
Gavriel Sureheart (120)
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
- Allies
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (140)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (170)
10 x Evocators (420)
- 10x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
Suffocating Gravetide (20)
Extra Command Point (50)
Everblaze Comet (100)Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 962 questions. Do you think the knight incantor was pulling its weight given the 240 (120 incantor+100 comet+20 gravetide) point cost given how much better other casters have become? How were you using 3x longstrikes, mostly character sniping?
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15 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:
Arch-Warlock has the WARLOCK ENGINEER keyword too 😉
I see it, i never saw the requirement that an engineer had to be neat by to overcharge. Big duh on my part.
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On 8/25/2020 at 2:28 AM, Cosmicsheep said:
If you're taking an engineer (or Ikit Claw) he can buff both the cannon and fiends if he's within range
There must be a rule i missed, how can the arch warlock buff the WLC? I know there's the battalion that lowers the roll by 1, but that's I thought you could do to make them better.
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I've got a couple vermin lords to build. Any suggestions on which 2? I was thinking warpseer and warbringer.
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6 Skull cannons done. Just need to finish the 100 horrors, 109 plaguebearers, and Be'lakor.
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21 hours ago, backslide said:
Have you tried this? I'm amused at skull cannons coming back...
Not yet, the lock down occurred before I got it painted and on the table. I should be ready for a game in a few weeks when the quarantine is tentatively scheduled to lift where im at. I post the results and the changes ive made since the first iteration was posted.
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On 3/8/2020 at 6:07 AM, Sir Mercury said:
Well Im not gonna decide who's going first with this list but I'll try it out soon in a local tournament.
My friendly testgames so far has been succesful and every time the opponent gets a WTF moment and can't decide where to focus.
I like it!
Allegiance: Khorne
- Slaughterhost: The Skullfiend Tribe
Leaders
Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Master Decapitator
Mighty Lord of Khorne (140)
- Artefact: Crowncleaver
Bloodsecrator (120)
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Battleline
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxes
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
Units
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bleeding Icon (40)
Hexgorger Skulls (40)
Wrath-Axe (60)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141
I run a list with 10. They are super killy and everyone is always surprised when they get run over, but I loose more often than not due to lack of hero/battleline for scenarios that require those units. Even on normal games, i struggle to hold objectives. That said, its still fun to play, just not especially competitive.
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So on the bright side, we can now ally in Lord Kroak for 3 rolls giving a command points for each +4. That will make a big difference for me since I always feel starved for command points (even without playing shootcast). On top of that, he casts 4 spells and puts out the mortal W's, especially if you can get him close to the front lines. That plus his +4 FNP means he can be up close without getting auto killed. Something to tide SC over while we wait for a more modern set of WS's.
Even if Kroak isnt your jam, we can still take 4-5 units of slamanders which are out of control for sure. Id wait on that till after the faq, i cant image they survive as-is with that point cost.
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I've been playing with list ideas for Be'Lakor. In particular ive been looking for ways to use some of my favorite under powered models. Here is a list that uses skull cannons. The hope is that in combination with Be'Lakor's ability to bring back D3 models with the bloodletter keyword, the cannons will keep coming back. The gaunt summoner will also allow the list to put out some pink horrors that also combo well with the D3 models getting returned. Plaguebearers are there to soak wounds for Be'Lakor.
Trashy list? yes. Lets you kill models and shoot thier skulls back at them? also yes. Let me know if you have any good ideas how to use skull cannons you think would work better then below.
Allegiance: Legion of Chaos Ascendant
- Host of Chaos: Legion of the First Prince
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Leaders
Be'Lakor (240)
- General
- Spell: Echo of Hatred
Skulltaker (120)
Bloodmaster, Herald of Khorne (80)
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Spell: Bolt of Ruin
Battleline
10 x Plaguebearers (120)
20 x Bloodletters (220)
10 x Bloodletters (110)
Units
3 x Skull Cannons (390)
3 x Skull Cannons (390)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
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5 hours ago, robpro said:
Managed to get my army fully painted in time for LVO, this is what I ran -
How'd it go? Looks like the doom and gloom about OBR wasn't reflected in the top 8 with just 1 OBR player. I'm curious if you saw a trend of OBR players loosing to specific strategies, battle plans, or if every army was geared in one way or another with OBR in mind.
I much prefer the look of the swords, but a 3+/3+ sounds a lot better than a 2+/4+
AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion
in Skaven
Posted
I gave this a shot with like 150 bodies and heroes to provide Buffs and BS immunity. With everyone gearing to kill megas, they just blow through the wounds and i was finding myself running out of bodies by t3. I also struggled to get tactics in the late game with that kind of build.
I remember playing the horde build against fec and lost 120 wounds of stuff at the bottom of 1. The dmg out there is outrageous and I don't think more garbage saves on the board mitigates it.
Don't get me wrong, I won games but it's not playing at the same level as the current meta lists.