Aelven supremacy
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Posts posted by Aelven supremacy
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Thinking about how Hyshian Aelves would play... logic and intelligence is typically shown by GW through abilities to generate command points. Maybe Hyshian Aelves would have an insane command point generation engine and an extreme thirst for command points. Command points are also the most reliable mechanic in AoS (compared to magic, shooting etc.) which fits the “reliability” component that is always an Aelven feature.
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Anyone have any thoughts on how to beat Legion of Grief? Near every other faction I have played I can beat but Legion of Grief is a nightmare. All heroes bubble wrapped in hordes that my eels cannot pop through. A teleporting general bringing whole units out of gravesites (which with our low body count I cannot screen all of). Bravery debuffs that make huge numbers of eels flee. Anyone had any consistent success and able to share?
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Eternal Guard with a 6+ save after the save near a boat?
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9 minutes ago, Overread said:
Yeah but that's all we have - the word of one person that "they are coming" in some form. Which is nice, but its just one source. We've no additional sources of such a rumour and no photos or any other documentation to back it up. Right now TK or an army that uses their models/theme/style is basically still only in the legacy of the game and in the dreams of gamers.
Still better to discuss on the rumour thread than prices!
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4 minutes ago, ManlyMuppet88 said:
Do we? Where? I haven’t seen that but I’ve been ignoring the thread for the last few days while people get price changes out of their systems.
Was a few weeks ago (I think?). A post on here by someone followed by a second from Tom Lyons.
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4 hours ago, mikethefish said:
Guys could we please stop talking about the prices already. It's pretty easy to make a new thread on the subject of you really want to.
^^^^^^
We have constant Rumour Engines that look like Aelves, Warcry and Darkoath and also now actual rumours for Tomb Kings and the Rumour thread is discussing GW’s pricing strategy...
Given there have now been quite a few Aelven rumour engines do you reckon that release is close?
And looking at michu’s post above... more Hyshian mystery!
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Good work! Sounds like it will be a series of videos, looking forward to seeing who else pops up!
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6 hours ago, zamerion said:
It’s Settra riding a bretonnian horse.
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24 minutes ago, Aelfric said:
If you want Zombies to be a tarpit unit, why not give them a rule that makes any model they kill rise as a zombie on a 4+ instead of the standard death rules, perhaps even allowing them to go beyond their starting numbers. That would make them unique and fit the zombie feel.
I wouldn’t even make it a dice roll. Their stats are so poor anyway it should just be “for every model this unit kills in combat add one more zombie to this unit”. The ultimate chaff killing unit, your opponent will probably try to move their chaff away to avoid adding to the zombie horde, opening up their non-chaff!
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12 hours ago, Drofnum said:
Sure until you get in to Duality of Death and those eels and Namarti cant hold objectives for you.
There is a place for them, and quite honestly my Sea Eidolon has tanked more damage than just about any other unit in my army in most games I take him in. He is still one of the few units that can get a 2+ rerollable, he's prone to MW's but there are ways to mitigate that like artifacts.
I do agree with your last point though, I've tested an Eidolon/Namarti Corps army and its pretty awful, Eidolonn/King/Eels and go for turn 3 high tide is quite effective though.
FYI in new Duality of Death Thralls can hold objectives, as can Eels in King builds 😁. Just places of power scenarios they can’t now
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9 minutes ago, Drofnum said:
The Eidolons really arent that bad. Ignore Verminlords for a minute and they only need to drop to 350-380 and they would be pretty solid.
I've played them at the old points and had success at large events, its really not as bad as expressed here.
Yeah at old points I even took 2 Storms to a one dayer (with 9 Morrsarr) and did alright. I’ve never desired a Sea over a Storm but the Storm can have a place.
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9 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:
The more I play with the listbuilding post GHB, the more I realize I don't think the Deepkin pt changes were off by quite as much as I initially supposed. I think the sharks become a chaffe mainstay at 100pts, but at 120pts there are obviously situations where they make sense to fill in a list, which means GW was at least semi successful at bringing them into competitive play. They shouldn't be a mainstay, GW designed them in fluff and game intending them to be a support unit, and I think they function pretty well that way at 120. I think the trick is that I consistently have found myself with 100-120 extra points after core list construction, which makes allopax a good choice to fill those last points.
I think the turtle similarly becomes more of an option. For a flip-tide list (I keep using it as the example because that is how I put most of my energy, in list building and playing), I think the core you want is approximately 18 eels, 3 units of infantry, a soulscryer, and tidecaster. While I think those 18 eels don't have to be ALL morrsarr, assuming they are leaves you with 360pts. Guess what fits extraordinarily neatly into that 360? A Leviadon. The equation here is a leviadon vs 6 morrsarr vs 1 king and an allopax vs 2 more infantry units and 100pts for allies probably. I think all of a sudden you have a lot of different directions you can go, and the leviadon doesn't look WAY worse then the others. I think it still probably doesn't win for sheer efficiency, but I think its not going to significantly reduce the competitiveness of that list, its going to be on the margins.
Compare this to the situation before when that same combo left us with 420pts remaining. At 420 in old points you could include a second soulscryer AND 6 morrsarr VS vulturnos and 1 allopex OR 1 infantry unit OR 3 ishlaen guard VS 3 units of infantry (or 2 units of our infantry plus 2 units of eternal guard) VS 9 Ishlaen Guard VS 1 leviadon with 40 deadpoints to spend on an endless spell for your tidecaster to never get off lol. There is no way if you are playing competitive you would EVER choose the leviadon in this situation, and no way you would choose the allopex over the extra infantry or eels when taking volturnos or king.
Despite the list before the GHB having MORE pts leftover to spend, the chances the under-used units were getting chosen were way worse, because of the way the leftover non-core points worked out. This is very important, because every competitive list has a core that is required for it to function as a competitive list, but many of those lists don't require all 2000 pts to function. Flip tide is a perfect example in that the core of the list is approximately 1600pts. its in those 250-500pts after the core where small pt changes are really going to start making things matter, what can you fit in your list with those last points to be least wasteful and augment your efficiency. Its hard to notice how small changes effect this at first glance, and I was definitely quick to judge in this regard. But as I am building lists for Deepkin, I am consistently finding myself in a sweetspot with points left where some of our much maligned units look far more attractive then they ever did before. If you are looking to avoid any inefficiency in your list, I think you still may end up skipping them, but I think the gap is small enough now that even someone looking to do really well in a tourney can likely take one of these options without seeing a huge dip, and I think that is a much better place for us then I initially thought.
Excellent post. I have defaulted to an extra tidecaster and also always worry about bodies on the table so had not noticed. It does make me immediately think though that 350 is about how much the Storm should cost...
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To jump on this thread... an additional question I have is when in the turn does control of objectives count for point scoring or winning? For example I believe it is Take and Hold which says something like “from the third battle round a player wins if they control both objectives”. Is this at any point in that battle round onwards (e.g. start of combat phase? Movement phase?) or just at the end of each player’s turn as per other scenarios?
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11 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:
This would obviously require some professional level involvement, but top down would be fine with on screen graphics to help keep track of which units are what. So you can follow along with the movement, charges and such. Other then that, I vastly prefer the hand held "go-pro" style of battle report. I also VASTLY prefer the participants to be "mic'd up" so we can get an insight how the game is going, rather then just commentators trying to explain what is going on. Without someone saying "I'm rolling to do X" or my unit of suck jobs is going to swing against your unit of douche canoes.. dice rolls seem inconsequential.
There is room for both competitive battle reports, and casual battle reports. Just as there is room for competitive vs casual EVERYTHING from bowling to baking. Some people enjoy the best of the best competing against one another. Some people like laid back roll some dice battle reports. One side is not better then the other. I think the reason you don't see many competitive battle reports, is it generally, is a smaller sub set of the already niche community we are a part of. MOST people, I THINK, are more laid back about this game. Not studying the intricacies of list building, the relative strengths of each sub faction within a battletome, or even considering specific builds vs other specific builds. I enjoy the feth out of that.. but most dont. And usually content goes where the views, clicks, and subscribers go.
I'm part of a very competitive gaming scene in DC area and we are talking about starting up some battle reports in our lead up to tournaments. ANY game we play is in prep for some tournament. I don't play games anymore where I'm NOT tweaking my list or evaluating the performance of units, weapons, artefacts etc. But that's different then being a good producer, editor. It takes a lot of time, money and effort. So unless there is a way to monetize it.. most dont put in additional effort to produced content because we already are spending time and money into just playing this incredibly time consuming hobby.
I was rewatching the Angelcore 2018 finals on the Magic Madhouse YouTube channel the other day and I liked that they had the players mic’d up. The 4th round especially was good for this as they just had the sound focused on the players near the entire game so you could really follow what was going on.
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3 hours ago, Koradrel of Chrace said:
So after some tweeking, this is the army I plan on taking to a local tournament this weekend. Any advice would be appreciated.
++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Idoneth Deepkin) [2,000pts] +++ Leader +
Isharann Soulscryer [130pts]
Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 3. Dritchleech, 6. Arcane Corrosion
Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 1. Steed of Tides
Volturnos [280pts]: General - Akhelian
+ Battleline +
Akhelian Ishlaen Guard [140pts]: 3 Ishlaen Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group
Akhelian Ishlaen Guard [140pts]: 3 Ishlaen Guard
Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [510pts]: 3x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group
Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [340pts]: 2x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group
Namarti Thralls [130pts]: 10 Namarti Thralls
+ Other +
Namarti Reavers [130pts]: 10 Namarti Reavers
+ Allegiance +
Allegiance
. Idoneth Deepkin: Dhom-hain, Forgotten Nightmares, Gloomtide Shipwreck, Isharann Rituals, Tides of Death+ Game Options +
Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost
++ Total: [2,000pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe
To add totripchimera’s points, Dritchleech plus Arcane Corrosion on the same tidecaster puts it at cross purposes. One wants it held right back, the other further forward. Put Dritchleech on the Steed of Tides tidecaster
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2 hours ago, Pitloze said:
Lets face it. The real competitive lists and games are boring to watch. So it's no surprise that you don't see them much on youtube.
I personally much prefer just watching competitive lists in top down camera tournament coverage. The Honest Wargamer’s events coverage is the obvious one but on YouTube you can find others from other tournaments (plus Warhammer TV’sown). It’s only here that you see expert placement, movement, synergies, combinations, reactive play etc.
Each to their own but seeing battle reports of players playing poorly thought through lists of armies they clearly have barely read the book for, playing basic rules wrong and making stupid tactical choices is not enjoyable for me (thinking of some of the other channels people have named, these guys play this game every single day, how do they get it continually so wrong?!). If the original poster is more of my mindset then tournament cams are the way to go. If they like something else then others will give better recommendations
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9 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:
So, what do people think of having a tide caster shooting arcane corrosion from the back? I have a tide caster but since she cannot exactlt keep up with an all eel list I am planning on keeping her in the back corner to cover back objectives and plink off the closest units with mortal wounds.
I’ve been having this exact thought. Play with a double Tidecaster list, one as general which stays higher up the board and the other in the back corner (ideally surrounded by line of sight blocking terrain) to force the opponent to commit resources to stop 3-4 mortals a turn way away from any objectives. Some scenarios you will need the tidecaster further up the board (hero scoring ones for example) but otherwise it’s interesting. Imagine something like take and hold where you smack 4 mortal wounds a turn on a defensive player guarding their objective until they send forces way away from your objective just to stop your tidecaster.
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Hey all, I’m eyeing up Daughters for my second army. Looking at Witches versus Sisters, choosing Sisters seems a no brainer (especially with slaughter troupe: retreat, run, charge, 6” pile in, 2” reach). I see most lists use Witches instead though. What’s the rationale?
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4 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:
Good point on the base size and character consumption. Hadn't thought about the getting into tight spaces to single models. That is definitely a bit of utility there that is nice. I assume sharks in larger units have to have some kind of leadership bubble following them, or you need to have command points at the ready. I definitely can picture 140pt a model sharks just melting away on a bad roll after the first one died in combat lol. I prefer the versatility of flip tide so haven't gotten as many king focused games in, and theory hammer def only gets you so far haha. So definitely might try to use one for hero hunting in my next list and see if I prefer it to more eels.
I’ve played 5 sharks (one unit of 3, one of 2) + 9 Ishlaen in a king build before. Positioning is a nightmare as you are trying to maintain bravery buffs and then the kings command ability across all the units. I used a soulscryer with liandras last lament to also help. FEC ruined me but I managed well versus stormcast and skaven. That turn 3 versus skaven I saved all my command points (and started off with plus 2) giving 5 extra attacks to every shark (the Ishlaen had all been wiped out as I had been using them to tank skaven shooting). 6 ferocious bites on every shark obliterated every unit in contact (stormfiends, clanrats, screaming bell, warp lightning cannon), I didn’t even need to roll for the fins or the men on top. Even with that the game was still close as need to position carefully all the time limited my objective game significantly. A one off shark could be interesting but I’d still go fuethan.
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32 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:
Interesting so you go all Ishlaen and no morrsarr?
Have you tried spamming to death massive morrsarr units with deepstriking and using turn 3 as more of a luxury? Wonder if that might work out just on sheer weight of mortals and models? Volturnos is pretty useful even without relying on the command ability, and while morrsarr are better off with ASF, if you have enough of them I would think you could weather the combat to still get the killing in. Haven't tried it myself but I would imagine against a lot of opponents it works. I think the risk you run is getting bogged down, and if you don't kill enough you are pretty much screwed.
Alternatively maybe throwing them out in waves might work? Holding back your biggest unit with volt perhaps holding some objectives on your end, to come in and finish things off on turn 3. Like if you have enough of them, using them as suicide bombers isn't such a bad thing, they are durable enough to force the enemy to devote resources to killing them even after the charge is over.
Assuming you are always taking volturnos and 1 soulscryer (assuming new ghb pts) that gives you 1590 to spend entirely on eel spam. That's 27 morrsarr. Ram a unit of 9 in through deepstrike on turn 1 and do as much damage as you possibly can, force opponent to put attention immediately on dealing with them, turn 2 maybe come in with 6 if you need to keep them distracted or need to cover your primary force, then turn 3 come in with 2-3 units of 6 depending on what you did on turn 2 and volturnos since with asf you don't need to worry about i go you go. Idk something like that. Only reason I might split them up a little like that is for objective coverage. Seems like itd be pretty good, maybe a little too point and click for my tastes, but I feel like if you are going to go the king list route, just going all in on raw voltaic power might serve better then trying to cover yourself with the high armour, play the strengths of the combo to the max and hope the strengths are so strong that the extreme weaknesses don't even come into play lol.
edit: The reason I haven't tried the entirely eel spam build personally is just a lack of models. I have 18 morrsarr right now, so can't pull this off, and I haven't seen any tourney results or streams that had a deepkin going morrsarr spam this hard. Most I've seen 21 morrsarr. The king lists I've seen have had some ishlaens in them to hold the enemy in place, and I'm meh on it, but that's why I wonder if maybe just going all in offense, no holds barred might end up working better
I like this take on it. In my mind I had been thinking to play cagey turn one (with Ishlaen allowing that more than Morrsarr) then just play for the double turn 2 into 3 and go for the Volturnos bang. Waves of Morrsarr would be tasty though...
Overall the biggest weakness of going so extreme on the turn 3 focus is that it is really hard to play the objectives game as everything is focused on killing your opponent in one turn in the middle of the game. As you said, this highlights one of the biggest, yet relatively unnoted, strengths of tidecaster fuethan of having run and charge on 3 out of 5 turns which enables good objective play too.
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19 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:
So much this! I understand why its the combo that occures to everyone first, but turh 3 is so very far away and our list is so glass cannony. To make it work you have to put all of your eggs in that one basket with very little space for contingency, and I am just not convinced at all that that the combo is even needed for the most part. The eels are killing almost everything with few exceptions without the kings help. That being said I think maybe the real benefit to that list is being able to skip the thrall/reaver battleline entirely and just go all out on eels.
I am of the opinion that flip tide list is the stronger competitive play. There are situations when the no thrall eel spam is better, but for the most part those situations exist in a space where the deepkin flip tide list has the advantage as well, just not as big of one. The flip tide list is far more versatile in my opinion, and gives you contingencies when you run into something unexpected. For example in the situation you mention where third turn high tide is prefered, you just don't flip the tide. Your 18 -21 eels are still going to be nearly as deadly as the all out eel spam was. And I think the thralls/reavers in your backline are great for holding objectives on your side of the board and there are situations where the thralls are going to be much appreciated (hordes). Its just more balanced and especially in a tourney setting a little bit of balance is needed for to stay competitive in marginal/coin flip matchups.
Edit: also note that the last deepkin list to take 1st in a tourney was a flip-tide list. If anyone is interested to see it in action I know the Dimensional Cascade youtube channel streamed table 1 of that tourney, and the deepkin list that won just so happened to be on table one for the last 3 games, so you can see how he used it. I think the fyreslayer matchup was the most impressive, as I think that is a negative matchup for us normally. He def lucked up on not drawing FEC as a matchup, but everyone (including FEC) has a matchup like that, so winning a tourney is always going to require a little matchup luck. He was a really good player regardless and I learned a lot from watching those streams.
Will check them out, good shout. I used to use tidecaster but wanted to try build a non-tidecaster list. All I find is that spamming Ishlaen is needed to tank until turn 3 and then Volturnos adding on enough attacks to them gets through high armour through weight of dice. Wondering if anyone has an alternative?
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How do people in general manage to maximise their turn 3 if they are running an Akhelian King list? Every time I try I wish I had tidecaster and flipped to get turn 2 high tide. Only a handful of opponents/scenarios favour turn 3 high tide (nagash on take and hold comes to mind...)
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2 hours ago, valenswift said:
I played my first game against my friends new FEC army last night and got destroyed, so was hoping for some pointers.
We don't play tournament lists as our group prefers a to use a range of models and often play narrative battles.
Last night was the Guardian Spirits battleplan from Forbidden Power with 1.5k armies
My List was:
Akhelian King
Tidecaster
6 Ishlean eels
Turtle
30 thralls
Shark
He had:
Royal Terror Gheist
Varghulf Courtier
Flayer Hero
Horror
hero
6 flayers
6 horrors
He was able to summon another 3 flayers for free as well as use the 3 heroes to roll 18 dice with returning models on a 5+. My eels took out the Horrors to 1 wound and then his turn he brought back 5 models restoring the unit to full strength so i had to fight them again. Add to this a spamming of feeding frenzy and even in high tide I was left with just the tidecaster on the table. I was a bit unlucky with the horrors so things could have gone differently and next time I'd stay away till high tide but still FEC seem awfully powerful. I really could do with any tips to beat them.
Given you play narrative battles I am going to assume you don’t want tips on army builds but more on in game tactics. Against FEC you need to take out their heroes but their heroes are strong. In your build you don’t have the soulscryer/ Morrsarr speed so are less able to reach his army on your own terms. However FEC are also fast so can hit you quick too. Your Ishlaen can tank, so maybe try to hold the royal terrorgheist there so you can bring in your Thralls to finish it. Send your turtle, shark and king into his other heroes. In this match up you won’t make it to turn 3 so you need to go hard from the start. Hope this helps a bit!
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10 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:
We have plenty of things to use our cps haha.
I always spend every cp on inspiring pressence to overcome our absurdly low leadership. Since nothing is worse than losing half unit on a leader check
Yeah, auto running 6 and passing battleshock eats cps up. We have enough reroll charges built in to not need that but otherwise we are a low bravery army that depends on movement.
Tyrion, in light reborn!
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
And to add to that, Hyshian Aelves battleline troops can spend command points, not relying on nearby heroes unlike all the inferior races. Nice way to reflect the entire thirst for knowledge from the lowliest troop up. And then they are a resource like Khornes bloodtithe to spend different amounts on different abilities. Or just make everything more consistent.