NJohansson
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Posts posted by NJohansson
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51 minutes ago, Sumanye said:
It’s worded explicitly now in the new book about damage rolls, but even in the old book it says you may use DD to modify a “damage roll” and spell damage is NOT a damage roll. This is also explained in the core rules designer commentary.
In the old book it was also clearly stated that you could not use DD to change mortal wounds so spell damage was always of the table regardless of any other circumstances.
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14 hours ago, JPjr said:
The eternal problem with named characters. A much as we all like to see the story move forward it would be a remarkably bold decision by Games Workshop to announce on the last page of the book that either Katakros or Archaon, or even both, had bought the farm and you were no longer allowed to use their respective hundred quid models in games anymore and in fact you were now required by lore to buy a £25 Warhammer branded hammer to smash them into little pieces.
Fully agree with this. One of the reasons why I stopped playing Malifaux (a fantastic game system btw) was that they killed of a master (model leading an army) from each faction and hade one more master change faction. The result was that for me I suddenly went from two to zero playable factions (I was unlucky that 4 of my 5 played masters were affected) in the blink of an eye. While killing Archeon will not be close to the same it would leave a sour taste for anyone who build their army around said centerpiece.
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30 minutes ago, Harioch said:
I also think the mysterious ally (..a word losely used here) is Belakor. With the hint of an allegence made of demon in the book I can't see him not coming but I might be wrong. Also as a demon prince he can't be killed for ever and even exists in both GW settings ala Skarbrand or Kairos. So there is that...
In the preview it explicitly states that Archeon went looking for Slaanesh so the mysterious alley is sort of semi spoiled. Unless there are several. Be’lakor has always wanted Archeons place so he would likely rather see him fail and die - then Be’lakor can focus on retaking the mortal world - after all what is another couple of thousand years to a being that is the first daemon prince (older than any one bar the Chaos Goods).
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1 hour ago, Sumanye said:
I like the current destiny dice to be clear, and I hope they don’t change it. I don’t think Battleshock immunity is why horrors are strong; any competent player would use inspiring presence on horrors instead of spamming LoC CA anyway and the horror issue needs to be addressed separately imo.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your assessment that if necessary you will save a CP. The problem is that Tzeentch is generally starved for CP. Both the LoC and now the Fatemaster really wants to use their abilities every turn and Tzeentch lacks the CP generating abilities of other armies. Saving a command point can easily result in all your casters having an effective -1 to cast and dispel. Or all your units within 9” Not getting re-rolls on hits and wounds. That is a very big investment in maybe saving a unit of horrors and also it will maybe save one - what if more than one is in combat? DD takes away any real resource management - what is otherwise a tough choice becomes a non issue.
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Archaon vs Nagash was a total win for Archaon. Archaon vs Sigmar resulted in Sigmar losing his hammer (win for Archeon). Without any form of extra twist the Allpoints should be impossible for any one to take.
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8 minutes ago, Craze said:
I can understand your arguments, perhaps I have written it a little too drastic: Of course there are uses for 3s and 4s too.
My main point is: Why nerf an armywide ability if there is only one very special thing (in this case Changehost) that is really over the top?
But couldn't DD in the 1st BT be used for ANY roll? Like for example making Fold Reality auto-succeed?
Only Kairos special ability could be used to change any roll previously. The problem with the current state is that it is not only changehost - host duplicity also becomes problematic with 20 pinks and auto pass of Battle Shock.
So for most purposes - I think that just clarifying in regards to battle Shock should fix most DD problems. Saying that - it’s just my humble opinion.
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1 hour ago, Craze said:
making DD rolls of 3 & 4 almost useless, which would help to protect your Acolyte blobs under the unmodified rule.
This type of reasoning I truly don’t understand. Need a guaranteed charge of 7 use a 3 and a 4. If you need a guaranteed hit and wound with a LoC use the 3 and a 4. Need a spell cast when your opponent can’t dispel use a 3 and a 4.
These are just a couple of examples. Destiny dice are incredibly powerful. If they also should be able to be used to pass a 6+ save from an attack with -3 rend 6 wounds or auto pass a battle shock it becomes really obnoxious fast.
Lastly Destiny Dice didn’t use to be unmodifed prior to this new codex and they were still considered to be one of the strongest traits in the game even before.
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17 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:
OK, controversial suggestion here -
Should TO's consider disallowing Battletomes to be played until they have their associated FAQ document released?
Most events already state that anything released in the last week can be used (new battletomes, FAQs etc), so just extending that to 3 weeks would mean that some of that fine tuning could be undertaken without the new battletome having implications throughout the competitive scene.
Or do we think that allowing this actually helps to highlight when things aren't working?
I think it is actually great that we get fast input from high end players. Becomes less of an argument “learn to play“ when it is obvious that there are really strong/to strong synergies.
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People seem to forget that Tzeentch not only won Cancon but that it also came 1-3 GT heat 1 and was 2-4 in one more major tournament all in the first week. Most of it was with changehost and loads of flamers (not so good) but there were also other lists placing high (very positive for the future of the book even if nerfed).
The changehost/flamer/20 horror is a very powerful combo. It is also a noob stomper and very very hard to counter. As a comparison - if I would come up against it with my Guild of Summoners list or even a Conflagration (but without changehost) I statistically loose more than a quarter of my army (heroes/flamers - i.e vital models) turn one, with almost nothing that I can do against it and since I lose key pieces it becomes something that is very hard (close to impossible) to recover from. It needs to be changed - hopefully they will just make small adjustments (IMHO) flamers should get -1 to hit, changehost should only be allowed minimum units, Fatemaster only on melee, Destiny dice not unmodifed and flamers not part of the changehost. Still very powerful but most idiotic combos will be gone.
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5 minutes ago, Storm said:
No-one deserves that 😥
100 percent this.
The situation with flamers is also one of the main problems with AOS in regards to LOS, cover and terrain rules. Since you can’t hide nor get any form of protection shooting becomes either to good and breaks the game or it needs to be non existing.
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6 hours ago, Killamike said:
The interactions aren't nearly the same. To try say that sequitors and clanrats have the same presence on the table is wrong.
You don't have to do 5 wound to a rat or sequitors to remove it from the space it occupies.
You can't kill a rat and create more bodies on the objective. You can't just bring them back either.
Yes the pinks die first and the banner with them. But then the banner gets folded back in. So now you have to put more resources into killing the banner off again.
The final game of cancon 10 pinks became 72 wounds at the end of the game across 3 objectives.
I play Tzeentch and have for a long time but I'm not gonna sit here and ****** in the wind because I want my dudes to be the best.
I still think you miss mmimzie point. The horrors on their own are not a power house unit - the combination of horrors, flamers and changehost mechanics is what makes the list above and beyond. I regularly play against Skaven and StD - 40 wounds strong units that can hold objectives are not hard to come by and most armies have ways to deal with them. The no modify nonsenses on Destiny dice should be FAQ but the rest - they are good but in a vacuum not a power unit. I honestly believe (and agree) that they were stronger in the previous iteration where I could freely throw out 2+ units of blue per turn while blasting people with endless spells from the pinks. If you would remove the changehost (or change it), dull (but not destroy) the power of flamers and maybe change the no retreat of Dup host the absolute majority of all complains will die down.
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Just now, Phasteon said:
3 Skyfires = 200pts
3 shots with D3 dmg
3 Flamers = 120pts
10 shots with D3 dmg
Enough said.
Skyfires have 16 inch move, 4 wounds, good melee potential and can do mortal wounds on a 6. Flamers were absolutely unplayable in the last book - so let’s not make them so again.
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I would rather see a lot of small changes than one to two panic reactions. Doubling the cost of horrors/flamers will simply make the book unplayable. Instead I would:
decrease the hit chance of flamers by -1 (which will also make exalted flamers more competitive/a must).
only allow teleportation (through changehost of min size units).
remove flamers/exalted flamers from the changehost.
Limit the fatemaster Reroll to melee only.
Remove the stupidity of unmodified dice from fate dice.
Start there and adjust later if necessary.
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2 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:
Bring some chaff and weight of dice units no? KO, living city, bonesplitters etc are all tough matchups even for changehost.
For changehost yes - for flamers and changehost not so much. You drop the 6-9 flamer unit and the 20 horror unit in range of what you want deleted first turn and then the rest is an uphill strugle for your opponent. Mind it is beatable but it is a real problem for most armies not geared against it.
Another problem is that when gearing against it is that the amount of special stuff needed will make you less effective against most other armies so you basically need to gimmick yourself for the odd chance of going against it.
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7 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:
I'm sorry but a shooty tzeentch changehost is a hard counter to a melee orientated ELITE OBR army. Just an unfortunate matchup to be honest. Everyone keeps batting around that it needs FAQing.... what needs FAQing ? The rules are crystal clear
Yes they are so less a FAQ and more a reduction of force for changehost is what is needed. I really hope that they will change so that flamers are no longer part of it (or something along the lines). Right now it is a nobrainer if you are gunning for maximum power.
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On 1/25/2020 at 5:19 AM, Malakithe said:
Yeah this is pretty obvious. Rules, for the most part, sell the models for people that actually play a lot and put a lot of time and effort into their games and go to events. General hobbyists on the other hand will buy stuff cuz they like it which is totally fine and good. But at the end of the day if your goal is to try to do your best and win at events you'll 100% be taking optimized lists and therefore models that fit that list.
I think you miss one important aspect (IMHO) and that is that rules and points change over time. Most people that I know who have been in this game/hobby for longer than just a year or two keep adding to their armies on a regular basis. Over time you tend to amass a large collection in your preferred faction (some in a lot of factions) and not all of them are point efficient.
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1 hour ago, Kurrilino said:
I hear a lot IF and When's.
This is how lists break apart. The whole book is like that and is considered weak because of it.
It’s a game with dice - everything can happen but statistically 5+,5+ and 5+ means a failure.
The book is not weak - it is a middle of the pack book with some great choices and a lot of point inefficient ones. You can build competitive lists - just the majority of those are without chaos warriors, which Seems to irritate a lot of people since chaos warriors seems to be the main reason why they love the faction.
Marauders, Be’lakor, Gaunt summoners, Exalted Sorcerers are very good for their point choices (just to name a few). Warriors and chariots are not (although not saying they can’t be played or made to work).
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13 hours ago, Malakithe said:
Cleaned up my Summoners list. Added spells and such. The first LoC to come in will get either Treason of Tzeentch or Unchecked Mutation for their lore spells. The Ogroid will be a sort of bodyguard for Kairos so Kairos can use the Ogroids spell to heal himself. The Orgroid then pumps himself up to punch people in the face.
Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Wounds: 107
Can’t really criticize- most looks solid. If anything, the amount of Acolyts you bring really feels more for the Pyrofane Cult (to get the most from them). I would drop 20 - 40 to get more casters/endless spells in Guild or switch coven to get the most out of the acolytes.
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Slaanesh is character heavy - so you need multiple Keepers for maximum efficiency. You can go one or zero Greater daemons with the rest so really up to your preference. Power wise - Tzeentch (Change Host) or Slaanesh (character heavy) is probably most competitive at the moment (Nurgle really needs an update in the current Meta). But really up to your meta - cutthroat, then (based on your requirement of single GD) definitely Tzeentch (especially if you have loads of flamers/horrors) - if relaxed then any that you like.
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And now we are once again back to competitive/vs fluff vs balance and one to two pages from this thread being locked. Not saying anything - I am contributing to the escalation - but my proposal, let’s start a competitive vs fluff thread and keep this to positive feedback.
On that notion - I really like the idea that less drops only gives you +1 to start. In such case both players have to deploy not knowing if they will go first - much more tactical and much more logical.
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1 hour ago, Kurrilino said:
Because all the spells are incredible high to cast and as soon as you meet an army who can temper with your magic he is 400+ points of useless.
Beside that his ability is once per game and i stay away from units with once per game abilities
I agree - once a game abilities are usually worthless - but Be’lakors ability makes the most efficient enemy unit worthless for a whole turn (if used correctly). That is 1/5 of the game so in the right situation is worth a couple of hundred points on average in itself.
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3 hours ago, newsun said:
Looking at multitudinous summoners. Looking for thoughts and suggested changes.
Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
The Blue Scribes (120)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
Magister (100)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
Multitudinous Host (160)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Burning Sigil of Tzeentch (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
I would swap in the Changeling- it has two spells and fantastic synergy with Horrors - probably would ditch the Magister in its stead and swap both endless for Geminids. Potential for -3/-4 (with spells) to be hit in melee is devastating. But that is just my humble opinion. Oh and I would probably die from boredom building and painting the amount of Horrors needed for this list:):):) Fantastic if you actually manage to build such an army.
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The relevant quote does not refer to the summoning table it simply states that in Guild you can only summon LORD OF CHANGE units. It then provides the actual cost of said units. I don’t see how it could be more clearer from a RAW perspective. I will not mind if they change it in FAQ, but for now it is unusual but clear. They have changed the wording from Lord of Change to LORD OF CHANGE, either on purpose or by typo - but RAW, it is a difference to the regular summoning table.
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19 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:
DP and Belakor are useless as it gets. Especially Belakor with his random roll 1 time per game ability. We are talking 450 points here.
I think you have a lot of valid reasoning in you answer but you are being to harsh on the princes. With the despoiler rules and command ability/ethereal amulet the DP gets really tanky (especially if you throw in a sorcerer with the Reroll ability). If Khorne it will also have an insane command ability for control. Be’lakor is a beast - depending on the right build. 2 cast/dispel, goodish attack profile, build in ethereal amulet, great spell and possibly game changing ability (put it on the Heavy hitter of the enemy) and activate it in a turn when it is about to engage - succeeding with 5+ to move, 5+ to charge and 5+ to attack is more or less a fail every time.
A DP, Be’lakor and a sorcerer (preferably on a manticore - but the points do not alleyways allow for it) is certainly a staple in a Despoiler army from my point of view.
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
The problem with internet and discussions is that generally everything occurs in a vacuum. In a perfect world any units of horrors will have the Changeling within range of the enemy, Geminids and other de buffing spells on key enemy units and the right amount of command points/ Destiny dice ready for use. This game is about managing resources and the more resources that you have available the more powerful your army generally gets.
That is why I would argue that 10 Horrors in a vacuum are not an unreasonable unit. They are really strong but there are other similarly strong units in the game. The horrors only become a real problem when you use them in one of two very strong sub factions, use 20 from the beginning, add the changehost, add de buffs/buffs and on top of that use Destiny dice. Because of this there is really no one solution - and the worst one is to increase the cost of the unit because 300 point for a unit of 10 horrors may still be to powerful in a Host Duplicitous but will render them useless in a regular army.
That’s why I strongly hope for minor changes to a lot of things (for example tweets to changehost, flamers, Gaunts, rules for cults, DD) but hopefully those changes are limited to small tweaks to each rule instead of one/two major knee ****** reactions.