NJohansson
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Posts posted by NJohansson
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21 hours ago, Charleston said:
What sorts of point reductions would you guys see as needed to make StD work better? Some things I would say by guts:
- Chaos Knights from 180 to 160
- Choosen to 120
- Soul Grinder to 200
- Slaughterbrute 140
- Chaos Lord on Manticore 210
- Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore 210
- Daemon Prince 200
- Gaunt Summoner 220
I agree with most suggestions, but I think that the Manticores (especially the sorcerer) is probably about right and the Gaunt is to low costed. As to the Prince, the problem is that it is mark dependent- Tzeentch and Slaanesh need a point decrease - Khorne and maybe Nurgle are fine as is.
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21 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:
I agree with most of that but Guant Summoner and Manticore Sorcerer options are fine the way they are, if anything Guant Summoner could go up a bit.
In my mind Chaos Warriors are the unit most in need of a price drop, say 80 points for 5 and possibly a horde discount on top of that.
Also Marauders should go up slightly.
Increasing the cost for Marauders is not a great (IMHO) idea - we don’t have that many top competitive choices and definitely not any unit at the absolute top of point efficiency.
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11 hours ago, Grdaat said:
They do bloat up the unit sizes by a considerable amount, which messes with all three templates and gives you a substantial disadvantage in close combat.
Depending on which manufacturer/unit. Don’t have any of my own at hand - but something along these lines usually works very good (IMHO):
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15 minutes ago, Grdaat said:
Yes, there's quite a few people who still play Fantasy and putting them on round bases would make that game much harder to play. AoS on the other hand isn't bothered by square bases, and this is the reason I stick to squares.
Not arguing, just don’t forget that there are very good movement trays (non GW unfortunately) designed to be used for round bases that allows for unit formations aka Fantasy. Makes the regiments look really good and let’s you use round bases if you want.
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3 hours ago, Kurrilino said:
But you know what? People play the warriors since 10+ years and don't want to play another army, they want their gaming experience, they had since forever.
So please spare me this, go play another army. If i want to ignore facts and look away if something is wrong, i would join a church.
But i want to play warhammer like i used to the last 10+ years. And yes, this book sucks epic, doesn't matter how you look at it.
But this is your main problem - it is not the same game as it was 10+ years ago. The world is new, the setting is new, the system is new - the fluff is vastly different.
As to your criticism of the book - no one is looking away, people are simply pointing out that there are options if you want the book to be competitive. If you want to play a fluffy friendly game agains a similarly narrative “soft” opponent then the book provides you with plenty of options. If you want to have a really strong tournament build you better focus on the 25-30 percent of what is competitive. The thing is all armies are this way - some units are strong some are weak - not one army out there let’s you play competitively with anything you want. Here is IMHO your main error in assessing the book, you want your favorite units to be competitive - since they are not the book is “garbage”.
On a related note - I started playing chaos in the nineties and I don’t recall warriors ever being on the competitive side of things. They have always been overpriced and underperforming. Great lords, monsters, magic - but the big warrior units were seldom what dominated.
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4 hours ago, Kurrilino said:
So, removing 90% of StD core units and replace them with units from other books makes StD more competitive.
Yep, that will definitely do, reducing StD players hate of a horrible written book.
Herr we go again... why are we back on “this book sucks track”? The funny thing is that STD have been placing high (right before the Corona stop to tournament) but still “it sucks”. Lot of people come with various advice on builds - still it sucks. The only real reason that I am seeing is “I can’t play with knights and warriors competitively”. Here you probably are right - but few people say that Fleshcourt sucks because ghoul swarms are not viable, or that Slaanesh is not top tier just because you must use KoS. Heck - sometimes I like playing Tzeentch without casters, but I don’t get upset that that is far from an optimal build. Learn to accept and adapt. Or simply play another army (without any disrespect - there are other knights in shiny and oversized armor armies in AoS- some much more competitive if you want loads of such models).
As to criticizing the advice to use a 120 points model as an ally in a 2000 point game... priceless comment. I regularly use Gaunt summoners on discs in Tzeentch as well as Be’lakor due to them being fantastic models - By said logic DoT must really be a worthless army.
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On 3/20/2020 at 3:31 PM, Charleston said:
Thanks, it is uplifting that other share the toughts but still don´t give up on the faction!
I don’t know what type of list you are playing - but I would guess it is warrior heavy (from your feeling that the book is useless). Try Be’lake, 2-3 units of marauders, the Gaunt summoner, Khorne DP and the Sorcerer Lords (both varieties) and then add some allies (the blue scribe for example) and you should really start feeling that the army definitely can compete. I currently have loads of success with both Despoilers and Cabal, defiantly not overpowered but I have faced very competitive builds and don’t feel like it is game over from the beginning.
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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:
Four Units can do it:
Mammoth, Archaon, 40 Marauders and a Karkadrak with a -2 rend artefact on his axe.
most of our damage comes from the Nurgle and his battallion. Sadly all of the rest is lacking. 😕
You have also access to lots of Endless Spells/damaging spells and our allies options have loads of variety. I also like the manticore (especially with the sorcerer lord) - a very deadly mobile artillery with great movement, decent damage, good survivability and a great antihorde spell.
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1 hour ago, Andrethegreat said:
I think it is sad that China will get away with this, after hurting millions of peoples around world, when this is done it will be business as usual. and why don't we do things like this for flu out brakes.
We know for a fact (99.99 certainty) that it was not man made and that it was transferred from animals around November 2019 (less certain on the actual date).
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Even in the UK the field is split (amongst scientists). But to put it in some perspective (UK/England numbers):
25-30 000 people die from diabetes each year, the flue (while varies greatly season to season) has been known to kill 17 000 a year, cancer 160 000+ a year, alcohol kills around 10 000 and smoking some 80 000 on a yearly basis. Covid-19 is absolutely much more dangerous than the flue - but going by numbers it is not the end of civilization/humanity going by deaths nor by illness (majority of people only suffer minor symptoms). In comparison 20 000+ children die every day (world wide) due to reasons that could be prevented by financial means (i.e. they die because of poverty). Expect this number to skyrocket once the financial crisis hits its peak, moreover that is only children - worldwide poverty will kill many more people than Covid-19 will.And yes this is comparing apples to oranges - I am not saying that we should ignore Covid-19. We definitely should take it seriously and take real measures. I am not even arguing against being careful, nor against temporary lockdowns and any other measures - just take it from someone on the inside, this is a much harder question than just be home or not or play games or not. Basically we are going to get hurt any way we do it - just don’t make it black or white - the reality right now is brown and in a toilet because the real question is not now but in three months time, especially if we don’t succeed with a lockdown and people start getting unemployed in their millions.-
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11 minutes ago, Nos said:
The Government has issued health guidelines asking *everyone* to avoid non-essential contact.
Wargaming is non essential contact.
If every one in the UK who wants to play AOS and meet with 4 other people for a game whenever they feel like it does it, encouraging 4 people to leave their house for no good reason and all of the unnecessary social interactions that entails , then it *will be* life ending for someone because the rate at which spread will occur from those actions alone will be enormous.
The latest government plan as of this evening is to lockdown, flatten the curve, reduce restrictions as the peak falls, then return into lockdown as it begins to rise again to flatten the curve etc until a vaccine is available.
The previous focus on geberating herd immunity has now been abandoned due to those responsible for it modelling outcomes of 250,000 dead in the UK. The hope is that a long term approach outlined above will reduce this number considerably, but that it will be 18 months until we're out of the woods with herd immunity reached through vaccine.
This *is* a matter of life and death. I fear the importance of AOS or indeed anything not essential to daily healthy living will become very apparent very quickly.
Sight - not going to argue with you, not because I couldn’t, simply because it is a bit disheartening and pointless. My biggest concern is that various governments have chosen to address this issue very differently - there is no one line of thought and no one line of defense/tackling the problem. There is probably not even a 100% right or wrong (just on the basis that almost everything is based on assumptions and probability) where if we get a vaccine soonish - your line of thought will be right and if we don’t then any type of lockdown for a couple of years (not even full but periodical) will be much more disastrous then the possible deaths. Saying that - once again, one should always follow the actual recommendations of your country in question - so if you are in “lockdown” then meetings should be avoided. For those of us where public life is still open/encouraged - then game on (with care and consideration).
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28 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:
The first consideration for my isolation is to keep from overstressing the health system.
My sisters both work in healthcare, and they are already feeling the strain, and we're not as far on the curve as other countries. When more people start coming in, and healthcare professionals fall ill, people *will* die, and not just from the virus.
I won't need to do that for more than two months, I think. After that, the disease will be petering out. I still will be avoiding organ receivers, cancer patients and other immune deficient people until it's done.
There is a chance but odds are (and for all our sake I hope) you are wrong. We need to get flock immunity (basically 60 percent of the population going through the illness) or find a vaccine. A vaccine would be ideal but odds are we are not going to se one in the nearest future (generally takes around five years - but they will definitely speed up the process) - hence lot of countries going for flattening the curve and flock immunity.
IMPORTANT - this does not mean we should stop taking care, we need to flatten the curve and hence everyone should take care but strict isolation is most likely not ideal. If 60 percent of the population gets the illness in a month or two the healthcare system (regardless of which European country) will not manage - fatalities will go through the roof. Not to mention the economic crisis that will follow (is already starting - which in the long run will affect us more - even in actual deaths). We thus need a systematic curve (and I am not going to try to guess how long the ideal one will be - but from estimates shown to us it is not a month or two).
Should probably add (because this is a very serious question and there are a lot of misinformation going around) - this is not just a random opinion. I am an MD for a healthcare company (general practice clinics - first line, in the middle of it all). My days for the last couple of weeks have not consisted of anything but disease control efforts, questions on quarantine, hygiene policies, hazard equipment and dozens of other Covid - 19 related issues.
The positive thing is that we will get through it - but the cost (hopefully not in lives) will be enormous.
Almost forgot, you should always follow your healthcare guidelines. If your government has issued quarantine - follow said quarantine. If the guidelines are to avoid public contact - avoid public contact. But unless full quarantine, 2-4 people meeting for a game is not life ending (provided that you follow hygiene and make certain to not have any symptoms - I.e symptom free for 48 hours).
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Agree and disagree at the same time. We all should take care and make certain to not be out in public with the slightest of symptoms. We all should wash our hands, take extra care of hygiene and make certain to avoid unnecessary risks - we need to flatten the curve.
At the same time isolation is not a solution. Achieving “flock immunity” will take a long time (if fast we will most likely have failed to flatten the curve) and stop going to any form of social meeting (including restaurants, malls, gaming groups etc) for the rest of the year or maybe even the next one is not a valid solution - it will just lead to much worse results in the long turn.
Use common sense - avoid meeting people if sick or having any form of symptoms, wash your hands and enjoy the hobby.
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1 hour ago, Charleston said:
@NJohansson Kairos has 3 Spells/Dispells for only 20 pts more. The Bolt of Change can also tie a unit down if a spawn happens. Also, the ability to adjust a single roll in the game is of certain worth. Like, when you do the D6 Damage to an opponents model who is at 5 life, and you can ensure the 6 damage to get rid of it
I get all that and I regularly use Kairos in DoT lists. Just I have never seen any synergy with him in a Cabal list. For example, a GS (who gets plus from being a cabalists) and the Blue scribes cost less, provides a crucial buff and a free horror unit as well as the same casting power (a bit weaker dispel though).
To be clear - not criticizing just trying to figure out if I am missing anything else.
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20 hours ago, Revan123 said:
I found one of a few ways to play Slaves to Darkness competatively, not putting them in Nurgle. Thanks to Poland. I won against 100 morteks with this and could win against Nagash, if I do everything right.
Interesting list and close to what I have been running lately (I play with -1 sorcerer lord, and Kairos and have 1-2 Gaunts and the Blue Scribe instead).
What does Kairos bring to the list? Is it the better dispel or any other synergy?
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3 hours ago, Freejack02 said:
I keep seeing people mention 10 pinks for "free" from the Gaunt, but I think that's the wrong way to look at it. The only way those Pinks would be free is if you would take the GSoD without any summons ability; paying the full 260 points. Would you pay 260 for just a GSoD? No - I'm pretty sure no one would... which means the summons aren't "free". In reality, the Gaunt on Disc is probably worth ~160 on his own, so what you're really getting is a 100 point discount on a unit of Pinks that comes with a few downsides:
1. They don't count towards battleline (somewhat huge).
2. They can be wiped out before they ever hit the table if the GSoD gets alpha'd (big concern).
3. One less spell the turn of summoning (meh).
The major upside is that the Pinks can move and shoot/charge the turn you place them, which really gives some flexibility on deployment if you can safely start the GS on the forward lines. Are they a good unit? Yes, they're quite efficient with the summons... but are they OP? No, I don't personally think so.
Pinks OP with or without Gaunts? I personally don’t know - in my opinion they are one of the best units point for point in the game but OP or not is another question entirely. Saying that in 1000 point games I do strongly feel that the GS is close to OP. Your opponents abilities to alpha strike are usually much less and an extra 400 points in horrors (most likely 200-300 in actual points due to the tax of extra cost of GD) really affect the game very strongly in my favor. Summoning in small games is generally stronger overall.
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2 hours ago, Maserdom said:
Coming from 40k, where reinforcements and summons cost points, AoS'rules are a bit hard to understand, especially since the Pink Horrors have been patched again and again.
When I put a unit of 10 Pinks on the battlefield, in a regular matched play I get to slowly turn them into 20 Blue Horros and 20 Brimstone Horrors, right? Or are there any limitations?
It used to be in matched play that you had to pay points for summoned units. No longer so - as long as you fulfill the requirement on the warscroll (range, placement etc.) you can summon for “free”. So 10 pinks (regardless if placed initially or summoned by summoning points or through the GS) will turn into 20 blues and 20 brims (pending on how you remove the models from casualties). Just don’t forget that you need to remove the pink first and then you can mix between blues and brims.
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On 3/2/2020 at 6:01 PM, AverageBoss said:
But thats my point. GS summons things.
The other options act as multipliers and/or debuffers.
Its easy to quantify the value of a summon with a direct points cost.
But its much harder to quantify those buffs and debuffs, but they can be every bit as potent.
And thats the trade off.
Just like any ability, it does not matter if you get taken out before you get to use it. If the enemy can alpha 5 wounds, they can stop your summon. It would take an alpha of 10 wounds in multiple locations to shutdown all the benefits provided by two separate casters.
You are right that the Changeling does not have a warscroll spell. But just as with the GS, he will spend most of his time casting lore and realm spells anyways.First and foremost - I think we can all agree that Tzeentch has some really good casters with great abilities/spells.
When discussing this type of things it really is theoretical and in a vacuum so yes if you are against something that can alpha your casters it is up to you to deploy to counter or lose said models - in said scenario the GS value goes down. On the other hand if you are up against hordes of models - the GS stock goes through the roof. With that said just purely looking at the warscroll the gaunt is really a bargain for its points. This is also really seen in most recent tournament builds - unless Changehost (and even quite often even then) you will se a GS in almost every list.
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50 minutes ago, Maserdom said:
I'll jump into the thread for a few questions!
Coming from 40k and its (now more than ever) deranged situation with rules bloat and power creep off the charts, I have started playing AoS in search of a breath of fresh air.
I willfully chose a mid tier army (Gloomspite Gitz, squigs-only variant) in order to play at 1000-1500 points max and enjoy the game once again, but the 1000 points variant of the list has already been painted and the subsequent purchases laid out. Avoiding boredom is a priority and, since AoS'gorgeous models make it much easier (for me, at lòeast) to speed paint miniatures, I'd like to start a second army.
As you may imagine, my eyes instantly fell on the Disciples of Tzeentch, especially since I already wanted to build a Thousand Sons army but never got around to.
From what I gathered, the DoT are a mid-high tier army with the potential of being high tier plus, which would be useful for the more... competitive matches at my LGS. I absolutely love the idea of spamming magic and summoning little guys around, but the Guild of Summoners coven seems to be the overpowered choice here, especially in 1000 points games (where a Lord of Change turn two is probably turbo-broken and only suitable for small tournaments).
Could you please, A) rate the following Guild of Summoners list and B) suggest a less OP list with the Pyrofane Cult?
I'd rather get the Kairic Acolytes than the Tzaangors since my squigs are enough for a melee playstyle, while the acolytes defending the mages and throwing fireballs require a different strategy. Since the Acolytes will be already there, and the Pyrofane is tied to them (and it looks like a mid-tier choice, since Guild of SUmmoners and Chagehost are the obvious cheesy choices), I would be saving quite a bit of money!
Guild of Summoners List:
- Gaunt Summoner
- The Blue Scribes
- Curseling
- 10x Kairic Acolytes
- 10x Kairic Acolytes
- 10x Kairic Acolytes
- 10x Kairic Acolytes
Total: 920/1000 and 80 available points for endless spells. Maybe I could leave out a group of acolytes (who are just there to maximize spell casts) and throw in an Ogroid Thaumaturge to defend my mages against charges, but I 'm not sure if 30 meat shields would be enough).
The plan is to wait in my starting zone for the first turn (which I'll always pass), cast as much as possible hoping for a first turn Lord of Change, and then run to the objectives on turn 2 once the enemy has been softened with fireballs.
Any help will be greatly appreciated! The local shop has declared a glorious -25% sale, so my wallet is ready to splurge on a few boxes while it lasts!
I like your list from an efficiency point of view. The main question is if you really need 4 units of acolytes? If you are planning to go heavy on them in 2000 points - then go for it, if not and you are planning a more traditional approach I would swap two units for one unit of horrors (or a second GS - basically the same thing but will give you more spell casting although you will then need to find 40 additional points). The same goes for the Curseling - good model with great rules that tend to fall of some in bigger games (or as soon as you get the LoC out). Once again if you will focus on daemons you could swap the Curseling for the Changeling (same spell casting- better synergy with daemon units and cheaper).
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5 hours ago, Gistradagis said:
Not really. if you're counting the +1 to hit with charge (which you shouldn't), Sword would be 4*3, and I'm not sure what do you mean with the 3*2 at the end. You're also forgetting that each attack has a 1/6 chance of doing 0 dmg but 2 MWs, which makes the equation a bit more difficult.
An average of 2 wounds per attack - but the illustration is that the two weapons are fairly equal. Yes the sword will be slightly better a majority of times but on average - take what you like from fluff/model point of view and it will affect your gaming once in a blue moon.
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1 hour ago, Grimrock said:
Yeah I ran through it again and the axe is about the same against 4+ and 5+ saves, but the sword is better against the rest. It's all rough head math but I did it by taking 6 princes of each type and just running through the averages against a given save. Honestly they're close enough that you could take whatever though.
This is basic math:
Axe 3*2/3*2/3*2 will be 2.6 wounds before saves
Sword 4*2/4*2/3*2 will also be 2.6 wounds before saves
The Axe has a better rend while the sword has a higher spike for damage. Really up to your preference and what you will be facing.
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3 hours ago, Charleston said:
Thanks for the Input! Yeah, totaly forgot that -1 to hit on Nurgle General Aura! That should give me a bit room. I also concider to get a Warshrine and a Harbringer of Decay for more Resiliance (5++/6++ and chance for Nurgle Prayer) which should match the equation
Do you think so? From my experience there seem to be tons of redundant aftersaves, flat 6+ overall, a 5+ or even 4+ on some units through magic or CA´s, which seem quite a lot of resistance against Mortals to me. Nevertheless I belive that the Endless Spells have a fair Chance of actually reaching the enemy.
It’s a game of dice and if your opponent is lucky with the saves then you will be in trouble. But what are the alternatives? I assume Petrefix (does anyone play anything else...) so you either need mortal wounds or rend. The majority of STD does not provide rend in the quantities necessary to win a war of attrition. Going Nurgle certainly helps and you definitely could/should go for the teleport/ charge trick - but most opponents will learn/start screening to mitigate it so you still need additional threats and mortal wounds is one of our best bets. That or you need to skip warriors (they are really bad in said matchup- IMHO). Bog down with cheap units and use spells to do damage not only to heroes but to units as well. Doesn’t work as good against strong casters as Nagash (although if you go all out on casters and Cabal you actually could get through).
Again - a lot depends on play styles, actual lists and scenarios so the above could be way of but it has worked for me:)
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1 hour ago, Gistradagis said:
Both Daemon Princes and marauders can technically do it. A Daemon Prince can move/charge across lines thanks to flying and rush an enemy support hero, possibly killing them in one turn (for added damage, could do the classic Sword of Judgement build).
The second style is also very common across all STD styles. Get a caster with Mask of Darkness, then teleport a unit of 20/40 Marauders behind enemy lines, get the almost-certain charge off and obliterate the enemy hero and as many more units as possible before exploding the following turn.
You can also go for heavy magic - OBR don’t like mortal wounds at all. Gaunt Summoner (or two), sorcerer lord (or two - especially the manticore one) under the cabal with a couple of endless spells could really be a problem for them (depending on Nagash or not).
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2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:
In regards to the GS, summoning is all he does. He has no other support abilities. And we have much better (and safer) options for horde clearing. You can get more spells for less points (magister + changeling for example). And I believe he is our most fragile unit for points cost. Hes also very slow (unless we are talking the disk version, which is a different discussion), and the horrors he summons will also be slow. He is VERY good. But he certainly has downsides I feel are overlooked.
I feel you are underselling the GS as to his abilities and performances. The horrors are deployed 9” and can move in the same turn so they are definitely not slow. Then he counts for the Locus ability so he provides the -1 to hit that the horrors need so his speed is not an issue due to him needed to babysit the unit for maximum efficiency. Last but not least - he has access to both spell lists so he is a very good spellcaster for literally no points (counting the horrors).
AoS 2 - Maggotkin of Nurgle Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
Thricefold can be great but falls really bad against decent magic defence (IMHO). Our Nurgle player has recently dropped Magotkin and switched to Legion of Chaos Ascendant. He plays it pure Nurgle with the exception of Be’Lakor (for legion of the first prince bonuses). Better sustain, better summoning and better synergy/bonuses for daemons - especially if going pure daemons.