Aren73

Ah you're probably right, I have whined enough... I'm getting it out of my system now so I can move on with enjoying the faction And tbf I did start a conversation about army building, it just all of a sudden struck me that on top of the disappointing rules we're also not getting terrain or endless spells. But you are right, it's all been said and frankly, despite my criticism I'm here for the long run (perhaps that's why I complained so much!). I am sticking with this faction, good rules or no, because they are just cool. I changed my order of a ltd. ed book and cards to a normal book and blood knights and I am excited to craft some fun lists to play.

No, you do make a good point, perhaps they were allocated inadequate time to complete the job that's fair enough. But that's still a failing of GW - just one of a different kind. In that case it's a management and timeline issue, there should have been adequate time allocated to this project. You think as a fan I wouldn't mind waiting an extra 6 months to make sure the book comes out great? But yes, you do make a valid point, saying lazy is inaccurate and perhaps it's not the fault of the author. Nonetheless I put primary responsibility on them, I find it most likely the case that they dropped the ball. I do appreciate though that as with many failings, there are a lot of factors at play.

Just realising how lazy the writing is...the warscrolls have been just tweaked. We have some new allegiance abilities. We didn't even get faction terrain or endless spells....daaamn. The modeling team were working their asses off to make amazing models and then the rules team delivers this. And before anyone comes at me for saying GW author was lazy: it's their job, they get paid to do this, there are expectations that they do a good job. Here it feels like someone did the bare minimum.

Perhaps one of the most frustrating mindsets to exist. "Opinions have no value" while at the same time "I am right and virtuous and on the good-guy team". How about instead: Opinions are based on reality, so while they can be biased or influenced, largely they tell you some aspect of the truth. I'm taking your opinions seriously, however given just how hard you are pushing in the "everything is perfect" direction I find it hard not to think you are just deluding yourself. It's ok to like the book while also noticing the problems with it... I certainly think there are positive aspects to it, at the same time I do think the writing is lazy and uninspired. There will be some playable and competitive lists for sure, I was hoping for more flavour though.

No, that would just be sad and so unproductive. How about, instead of bashing what I have to say you instead try convincing me why you think some things are good? I'm somewhat reasonable I'm up for convincing. Just give me a good argument. We can try approaching this like two adults, both of whom see an aspect of what's there, where we can both learn from each other? If you lock all the negative people in one place then it will just make an echo chamber and no-ones opinions will change. But if we're all talking together then maybe we can cool off each other's extreme opinions and arrive at a reasonable consensus? I was thinking wight king to make the grave guard batteline, but then I sacrifice the command trait... Legion of night would make the Vargheists battleline but I don't like the rest of their rules sadly Kastellai would be cool to make the Blood Knights battleline, I'll probably still have to take some tax units there though, not into running 3 units of BK. In think really I have two options. Either I push into Vyrkos and have a wight king and a large block of Grave Guard (with that +1 to wound they are tasty). Or I go for the full vampire route with Kastelai, which I do think is probably weaker but does sound more fun.

For sure, completely agree. I think they could be fun to run and I'll try them out On that note, you guys up for helping me figure out the faction to go with? Units I like: Blood Knights Vengorian Lords Vampire Lords Vargheists Fell Bats Grave Guard Terrorgheists I am not a fan of one-dimensional armies so I don't like to run just Blood Knights or just monsters. Going by that, I probably won't get most use out of Avengorii (sadly), Legion of Blood doesn't interest me much either. Legion of Night likewise seems a bit meh. Between Kastellai and Vyrkos, which one do you think benefits the above units most?

Sadly I don't see them as that strong. The outflank is risky if you're not guaranteed a charge (unlike the Idoneth one where they get +3 to charge) and the buff when you kill things is quite fun and thematic, but situational. Not many good players will let you kill one of their units without retaliation. Not saying it's bad, but you just have to be more careful with it than you might think.

1) They were always medium hitters, Grave Guard on horses (that's literally their lore). Oh sure, now they get deathless minions from gravesites too however they need to be babysat to be in any way useful - they need those command abilities and spells etc. Oh and they lost their shields for some unknown reason, explain that if you can. They are just straight up worse. They were nerfed and didn't need to be. 2) I agree, you're right on that front. Fell Bats aren't damage dealers, I was just hoping they'd become fun. Instead their nice models only exist now to grab objectives...it's a bit sad.

Damn that does sound quite accurate... That's another issue. I'd much rather trade broken filth for balanced and fun/creative rules.

That command ability though... +1 to hit, wound and save for a unit from the start of your hero phase to your next hero phase. It's insane. And it works on Soulblight Gravelords units, not just on summonable, any unit...

Well said. Perhaps a bit on the pessimistic side, the coven throne and corpse carts don't seem too bad. In general though, I am disappointed by how boring the new rules are. The warscrolls (aside from Blood Knights and Vengorian Lords) seem quite uninspired. I do think we can get some quite strong builds going with this army. However, to do so I think we'll have to resort to abusing units (such as grave guard) which is not what it should be about. And yeah, sure, list building on the competitive scene is all about taking advantage of the most efficient units and exploiting that to the max. However, I think we're going to have to do that just to compete in regular matched play games.

Basically, it's lose-lose if you're buying from them Nah I'm really hoping that GW will address the issues in the book, I'm just wondering if the drop in sales will be enough to make them pause and look into it.

Isn't that rewarding GW for ****** up our faction?

I too love the new improved Black Knights! They're so much stronger! They even left their shields at home so they wouldn't be burdened as much! Same for the fell bats, they're just so badass! I can't wait to see them try to make it through at least one round of combat to try and use their retreat and charge rule!

Yeah... Love that with Broken Realms so many armies got buffs in the lead up to AoS 3. We got this.

My 100% favourite take so far is: "Hey bro, it's ok our army is bad bro because every army in AoS 3.0 will be bad bro" Yeah... The same was said for 40k when points values went up. Turns out no, bad rules are bad rules.

It's alright, just time to be super abusive with units. Vengorian Terrorgheist Avengorii spam, time to play some games.

If this book is a knee-****** reaction to some units being abused in the competitive scene, they've just made that problem even worse. The pool of units to be overused and abused seems to have concentrated.

And just like that, the lovely new plastic models for both the wight king and vampire lord are leaving my list of things to get.

Mannfred now seems to be worse at magic, for some reason. Clearly, he was just too good before. Loremaster yeah right...

Turns out Avengorii is pure monster mash, they do nothing for Vargheists at all. Even Lauka's command ability only works for monsters. So much for lore I guess. Edit: ok some good news. Coven throne command ability is broken +1 to hit, wound and save for a unit. Nuts. Blood Knights where half their profile is a 2+.

Heh, you reckon we can still play with the LoN book? I know it's meant to be "replaced" by SG but aside from the LoN book not being sold anymore can it not be played at all?

They couldn't bring themselves to do it. They simply couldn't make themselves go away from the usual 3+ 3+ -1 2D profile for a vampire. Every vampire seems to hit like that no matter what they're holding. Even the Vengorians... When GW wrote the VC book they really cared about individuality and customisation for vampires, you could make them so incredibly different. Whereas now...it's all just the same cookie-cutter unit, whether you're a vargheist or a Vengorian Lord or a vampire lord on foot.

This is miserable. Vampire Lords got worse and they didn't get any more customisation. GW what the hell?