Kharneth
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Posts posted by Kharneth
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26 minutes ago, mmimzie said:
I still kind of lean toward bolt of change because the damage from it is more reliable. Whiel firestorm can be more but is very spikey.
So basicly, you summon your 20 blues onto one border objective. You put one unit of blues up as far as they can go, and then the 2nd unit of blues ~5" behind that first unit. So only one of the untis of blues can be killed. Now he either double turns and doesn't. IF he double turns he might secure both border objectives, but that's alright because on your turn you acolytes and pinks can get you back on your border objective.
The gaunt summoner snipes down the the 25man clan rat unit, and i'd say the LoC should be taking care of the ratlings or the hell pit abomination. Honestly the ratlings even with the -1 to hit 4 ratlings can put down a gaunt summoner in a single turn.
Turn 3 or 4 you go for that extra objective to even up or win. Maybe you can't summon right on the objective, but i find that usualy i can because my spell damage is general enough to purge and area of models. Failing that if all your opponent has protecting an area is rattlings and a grey seer or 10 ratlings that your spells only bring down to 1 or 2 models. You can pre summon your blues within range and then walk then onto the objective your next turn.I was talking Inferno vs Mutation, Bolt of Tzeentch is superior.
I'm either going Inferno on LoC and Bolt on Pinks or Bolt on LoC and Fold Reality on Pinks. I know Fold Reality doesn't have a great target, but with an average of 6 killed each turn and only a single reliable Destiny Die of 1 I found I could only kill off the Pinks twice (they died before this, but if they were still alive I could only kill them one more time before they'd be nearly gone).
The objective is 12" forward from both of our deployment zones. The furthest I can summon is 9" away from the enemy, meaning the blues that go the furthest they can go are only 3" in front of the objective. So you're right, IF he double turns, he'll likely contest and probably will take ownership of that objective.
The gaunt summoner failed Infernal Flames on turn 2, 3, and 4 so it'll be nice to not fail again. I've seen him destroy that 25-man unit in a single turn. The ratling guns are spread across the board evenly like 6-12" away from each other. They can't all focus fire on a single target. From more than 9" away, they hit the Gaunt on a 5+. I know they're a threat, but if I take care of them early they won't be able to harm the Gaunt and so far he has not prioritized him.
I've found he's particularly difficult to get off an objective prior to the end of the movement phase because he'll often have separate units. For example, first he had his Hellpit and Chieftan on the objective, I can't clear that. Then he had 2 ratling guns on the objective, which would require 2 different spells. I had other things going on then, but the point is it's not always a single-spell solution, though I am working to get this strategy down because I know how useful it'll be to clear an objective in the hero phase and then secure it with a summoned unit.
We will most likely not be doing this mission again, but I've taken the advice to heart and will try to make use of it in the next game. I need to find the balance between controlling the battlefield and not spreading myself too thin.
In every single battle with this enemy I will get to choose who gets the first turn as I have less drops. Is it better to get the first turn to get my summons out as far as possible or to take the second turn so I can be in range to nuke things?
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On turn 1 I can generate 9 fate points, which means if I lose 6 pink horrors (avg swords+sacrifice) I can summon 20 blue horrors on the first turn. Or, I can summon 10 blue horrors and then on the 2nd turn I can summon 3 flamers with another 10 blue horrors.
Funny that you say that about Tzeentch's Inferno because that was my original set-up before you said that LoC gets Bolt of Tzeentch because it's the best spell. It is, and I do like that set-up, but Inferno being the hardest to cast makes good sense to be put on the most competent caster. Bolt of Tzeentch is certainly not wasted on Pink Horrors. Of course, this is only if you have room for the spells. I only have room for 1 damaging spell in addition to Bolt and Glimpse. Unchecked Mutation has a more reliable cast and more reliable damage, so... idk.
On my first turn, I killed 7 pink horrors and was able to summon 20 blue horrors. I had 10 blue horrors and 10 acolytes on each of the center objectives in addition to owning my home objective. I thought I had them secure, but his abomination killed 10 blues and then 10 acolytes during his double turn. My screen protected my LoC from the hellpit, but not the clanrats.
Some issues I had that I can perceive having with your strategy, too... the blue horrors that I put on the border objective that I was able to secure, that would be the one that I don't abandon, once he gets a couple rats near it and in combat with my guys there I can no longer summon within range of the objective. In your scenario where I've only got 1 border objective protected by 10 blues and 10 acolytes, what are the other acolytes doing? Are they standing between the enemy and the objective to slow them down? I need to find a way to fight 6"+ off the objective so I can summon reinforcements on the objective.
I have a lot of things going for me, his ratling guns mostly shoot acolytes because he doesn't like killing blues and pinks, the gaunt has -1 to hit and the LoC is either out of range or for whatever reason he doesn't target him. He shot him with a ratling once and might start doing it more, but right now his target priority is not perfect. Also, I think I can kill his ratling guns pretty quickly. The 25-man unit doesn't take battleshock, so I was thinking of targeting the chieftan and ratling guns first. I think I can kill the chieftan and all 4 guns in a single turn provided they're all in range and los.
The idea of flying 10" with the LoC and dropping some blues 12" away was quite literally impossible during the game. I continually looked for opportunities, but with his grey seer camping his home objective and his ratling guns lagging behind, I had few places where the LoC could fit and in those locations he'd be vulnerable and wouldn't have any summoning locations in range that would've been worth the loss.
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I battled my friend's 1,000 point Skaven list on Tuesday and will be facing them again on Sunday. Him and I plan to continue using these same lists until January when he will start shifting to his Maggotkin/Slaves army.
Skaven Chieftan(?) with helmet that gives immune to battleshock within 3". Grey Seer with Vermintide that is consistently unbound. 2x10 clanrats, 1x25 clanrats, 4 ratling guns, and a Hellpit Abomination.
VS
Gaunt Summoner (no familiars, yet) with Arcane Sacrifice and Glimpse the Future. Lord of Change with Mark of the Conjurer and Bolt of Tzeentch. 2x10 Kairic Acolytes, 1x10 Pink Horrors with Unchecked Mutation (might swap for Fold Reality), Quicksilver Swords, and Chronomantic Cogs.
We played Border War, which included an objective in both of our deployment zones that were each worth 1 to the defender and 4 for the attacker, plus 2 objectives on either flank of the center line each worth 2. I deployed first and chose to go first, not sure if this was the right decision. I wanted to secure the objectives as early as possible and knew that his rats would be fast enough to get to the objectives if they went first and then I couldn't summon on the objectives. When I took the first turn I ended up moving too far forward, securing both midline objectives with my Acolytes 3" behind and my blue horrors 3" in front.
Moving forward like I did, lagging in the center with my Pink Horrors and LoC about 6" behind, I feel like I put too much stuff forward. On his first turn he was able to charge my blue horrors with his Hellpit Abomination. He also charged my other blue horrors with 10 clanrats on the other side of the board. Neither of his units were able to get within 3" of the objective on this turn due to my placement. His other clanrats ran forward swarming the center while his ratling guns killed some acolytes and blue horrors. Unfortunately, he won the roll-off and was able to go first on turn 2. I'm not entirely sure if my loss was due to moving too far forward or if it was due to this unlucky situation, though this happens to me pretty frequently. On his second turn his abomination and chieftan secured the left objective while 10 clanrats battled my blue horrors and another 10 clanrats battled my acolytes on the right flank. The large swarm of 25 charged my LoC and Pink Horrors. From here I was just continually pushed back. I was able to hold the right flank and most of the battle ended up being over my home objective, which was worth 1 point to me and 4 to my enemy.
The game ended on turn 5 with extremely high casualties on both sides, but with him at 23 vp and I had 16. I had my gaunt summoner and 10 blue horrors remaining, he had 1 clanrat, his chieftan, hellpit abomination, 3 ratling guns with 1 wound, and his grey seer.
What I'm wondering is where I should direct my damage, specifically the spells. I failed a lot more spells than I expected (Infernal Gateway rolled double 1s when I needed it and Infernal Flames was either unsuccessful or unbound for the entire game), but the spells that did go off primarily targeted the Hellpit. Due to failing Infernal Gateway, Bolt of Tzeentch dealing 1 mortal wound, and taking damage on the LoC before being able to cast again I was unable to deal significant damage to the Hellpit, which heals d3 wounds in its hero phase. I'm thinking next time I might focus on the ratling guns and chieftan so that he loses his ranged damage and can't keep his 25 clanrat unit immune to battleshock instead of focusing on the Hellpit. If I really want to kill the Hellpit I need to either deal 12 wounds to it in a single turn or be able to deal 15 wounds to it over 2 turns without him getting a double turn.
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26 minutes ago, newsun said:
RAW this is how it's stated. Sword & board plus glaive for 3/10. Meaning more attacks from those three models.
Now you're just being ridiculous.
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46 minutes ago, flamingwalnut said:
Nah, you look to be right. I thought it was worded different, like you add the shield on later. A lot of units have the "Armed with X, Y, or Z. Some may take a shield." It appears these guys are not. My bad.
Though, wording like double handed do still seem to mean nothing, and cause nothing but confusion and rules intention arguments. Like with thr Duardin Warriors I mentioned ealier.
I feel like the double-handed was added early and then when they changed their intention they missed the words and so they never got removed. Otherwise it's just blatantly adding confusion. It also frustrates me that the glaive sentence doesn't read "Three in every ten models in the unit can be armed with a double-handed Cursed Glaive" because it's written with plural glaives. I know what they mean, but the wording! 😅
The only counterargument I can provide is that the first step is to pick a) single blade, b) paired blades, or c) blade and shield. Then from here, 3 of them can be given a glaive as an additional weapon. So if you have all sword&board, 3 of them will also have glaives.
Regardless of the way the rules are worded, it would feel unfair to tell my opponent he can't use his shields with his glaives since the models don't even come with two handed glaives.
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29 minutes ago, flamingwalnut said:
Double handed means nothing. You need to look for things like "equipped with X OR Y..." The Dispossesed duardin warriors have the same deal, 2 handed weapons AND shields.
"equipped with" and "armed with" are essentially the same thing. What GW expects to be used as rules and to be used as useless extra words is hardly clear.
"A unit of Kairic Acolytes has 10 or more models. Each unit fights with a variety of weapons; some of the Acolytes are armed with a single Cursed Blade while others carry Paired Cursed Blades. Some instead carry a Cursed Blade and an Arcanite Shield. Three in every ten models in the unit can be armed with double-handed Cursed Glaives."
When wielding the glaives, where does it say that we can also have a shield and/or not replace the shield? The way it's written, it implies that any single acolyte can be armed with a single blade, paired blades, a blade and shield, or a glaive. The idea that the glaive can be used with a shield is quite a leap without the support of the models' design and the pictures.
I'm not saying that you're wrong or that I disagree, I just don't understand how anyone would come to that conclusion based on the wording of the text. (not arguing, just voicing my discontent).
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You're both missing an important detail, in my opinion 😝. Are the glaives wieldable with a shield as the models and pictures indicate, or does the phrase "double-handed" mean to say that the glaive cannot be used with a shield?
I agree it makes next to no difference.
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Nothing updated, just RAW on the warscroll.
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10 minutes ago, mmimzie said:
You are not required to remove the guy with the shield. You can kill any model you like.
So then really the only reason not to take the glaives is if you don't want to differentiate between the -1 rend attacks and the non-rend attacks.
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1 minute ago, Reezark_SP said:
It probably doesn't matter that much anyway since the rules were updated so that only one model in the unit needs a shield and the whole unit get the extra save.
Sure, but if you take a 6+ save with the arcanite shield and you fail you're surely required to remove the guy with the shield. So you need to have enough shields to survive failing the shield save.
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37 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:
Hmm it would be really lame and annoying if they cannot use their shield while armed with a glaive since building the models as instructed they are clearly holding the glaive in one hand and their shield in the other.
Odd. They're clearly referred to as double-handed. I don't really think it matters, I can't imagine someone giving you a hard time over that. Even in the pictures they're holding the glaives with shields, I wonder why they added that phrasing.
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1 hour ago, Reezark_SP said:
I like to make mine as annoying as possible. Multiple groups of 10 with Scroll for extra shooting range the the bird to maybe put a mortal wound on enemy wizards. Everybody else gets shields/blades and shields/glaives.
I never take them above 10 and always give them the Scroll and Vulcharc as they do not replace weapons. I don't believe you can use shields with the glaives, so you'll lose 3 shields. Maybe you can use the shields against ranged attacks? I assumed the "double-handed" description meant that it replaces the sword and shield.
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I think Ogroid is going to be a useful addition. His Fireblast is a very good spell, it's basically an easier to cast Bolt of Tzeentch. I see the horrors as a bonus that makes it particularly useful around objectives, as you've mentioned. He's an arcanite wizard so he can be used to cast Glimpse the Future if I need the Gaunt Summoner to take something else. Lastly, he's got excellent combat stats for a wizard. I plan on using him to hold/steal an objective. I think using him with Treacherous Bond surrounded by lots of blue and brimstone horrors will make for a hard-to-secure objective.
Your Lord of Change is so dark and colorful at the same time! Do you use it with the sword? How's that go for you, is it mostly for defense or do you often engage in combat?
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6 minutes ago, Fuggorf said:
You don't get a choice. It only summons Brimstones.
Page 127 – Ogroid Thaumaturge, Fireblast Change the last sentence to: ‘After the damage has been inflicted, you can set up 1 unit of Brimstone Horrors within 1" of the target; the number of models set up in the new unit is equal to the number of mortal wounds inflicted.’
Oh they changed it?
But still, when/if you summon a wizard do you get to choose a spell for it to have?
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When using the Ogroid Thaumaturge's Fireblast what type of horror do people create? Brimstone horror seems pointless as blue is better in every way, though I'd be tempted to summon a pink horror over a blue horror. Is there any reason to summon blue horrors (perhaps for the smaller base size?)? If I summon a Pink Horror will it get to cast a spell since it's still the Hero Phase? When I create Pink Horrors in this way, or through summoning (Herald as well), do they immediately generate a spell from the list? Creating a single Pink Horror that can now cast spells like a Wizard seems like a very powerful thing provided you still have uncasted spells.
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On 11/30/2018 at 5:22 PM, Neffelo said:
What configurations does everyone rune their Karic Acolytes in?
To me it doesn't really seem to matter. I use mine with all shields and swords because their purpose is to die and the 6+ save from the shield makes them that much harder to kill. They don't really do damage, you could give 3 guys the glaive but I don't think it'd make a huge difference. There's no real harm in it, you'll probably lose the last 3-5 through battleshock anyway. I wouldn't take any paired weapons because you'll want at least some shields.
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13 minutes ago, mmimzie said:
I like the spell portal because it does an average of 6 mortal wounds this is enough to drop most onfoot heroes with a single spell. Giving you some powerful turn 1 muscle flex, combine that with some turn 1 summoned blue horrors and you become a very realistic threat for droping a lot high profile heroes. That said i do agree droping the portal wouldn't be a bad idea. I also feel kind of similar about the balewind as it'****** or miss in various match ups.
I assume those 6 mortal wounds are coming from Infernal Gateway? That's the exact scenario I can see that being used, also possibly for transferring the predatory spells to the enemy when you're done splitting horrors. Still, it's something I could do without. Doing 6 mortal wounds through the portal to a hero and then chipping a unit with 2 mortal wounds from unchecked mutation and however many from an extended infernal flames on turn 1 would be so mean!
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45 minutes ago, mmimzie said:
LoC cast bolt of change, he's the best wizard, i'm gonna give him what i see is the best spell.
Tzeentch's firestorm: 9 dice fishing for 6s that do d3 mortal wounds: 9/6 is 1.5 times the average of a d3 which is 2, means you do 3 average mortal wounds. Less than the average of bolt of change while being harder to cast. Making Bolt of change the best spell. Spikes very high and also very low, can very realisticly do 0 damage, but could (all though less likely than 0 damage) do 6 mortal wounds. 7+: 1.75 8+: 1.25 9+: .83
Unchecked mutation: dpes d3 mortal wounds of a 7 which is average 2. ~.5 more mortal wounds on average from the unchecked mutation bit. But just keeping it at 2 mortal wounds. Alittle easier than Bolt of change, but not by much. Damage when factoring in the casting value (or needed roll) 5+: 1.666 6+:1.444 7+: 1.16
So comparing the two spell we can see they are really close when cast by a pink horror squad with full buffs. That said for me i like that uncheck put out damage almost every turn, but i can see the argument for the potential burst of firestorm. I think it's definitly a choice to me made, but i'm just a bigger fan of reliability over spike damage.
It's not an infinite combo, and i don't think i've sold it as such. Sure you can't keep milling your pinks past turn 3 or so, but the value of summoning drops of dramaticly late into the game. As you opponent is likely well nested on objectives by then, and so it's more about smash in and claim objectives and less about summoning to take hold of objectives. So pink milling is turns 1-3, and enlighend/Loc/ Gaunt summoner/ogroid work to score you pts later by clearing hole in your opponents armies. Ogroid being key in that the brim stones he summons can retreat from the unit they are in combat with and still stay in objective range. Unlike normal summong that must be more then 9" away.Thanks, and I do agree. I had not considered spells in terms of their casting value before. I appreciate the analysis as I wouldn't know how to come up with damage based on casting rolls. I am also a bigger fan of reliability over spike damage, especially when the spike damage occurs randomly.
Yeah, you didn't sell it as an infinite combo, I'm mostly just thinking out loud. With Pendulum and Burning Head you could get 15 slain horrors and drop 30 blue horrors without even dipping into fate points. I like your list as it's $25 cheaper and if I find my spell casting too unreliable I can then add the Blue Scribes to help out. Not sold on the spellportal, though I've got one enemy in particular I think I'll use it for, but there are other endless spells I'd like to experiment with (pallisade and shackles).
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7 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:
In my opinion choosing whether to use a Magmadroth or not would depending on which Command Ability you want to use and maybe have the Magmadroth be a distraction carnifex, though on second thought that probably isn't smart since you want him alive.
As for command traits, remember that the army is built around propping up the Berzerkers so traits like Fury of the Fyreslayers, Exemplar of the Ancestor and Spirit of Grimnir would be your go-to traits to pick. Your heroes (except for the single hero berzerker. Don't get your berzerkers confused!) will want to stay behind your VBs most of the time to stay alive so they wont be seeing much battle unless they have to.
Sounds a lot like Blades of Khorne. I definitely chose my heroes based on their buffs, though most of them probably saw combat more frequently. Good to know, though. Thanks for all the help!
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12 minutes ago, mmimzie said:
2 of the pink horror units get fold reality. As they get a near always on +1 to cast just by smelling a hero. Then another +1 from the LoC command ability, and you ahve some pretty hand casters. Casters who can reliably help cast your net work of endless spells. I give two of the units fold reality becasue i like to make sure i have the spell later into the game.
I do casualy pay mind to the burning head buff, but i don't break my net over it either.
Yeah it's a pretty reliable 30 blue horrors, general i force the pendulum with the LoC and a Destiny die turn 1, and then attempt the burning head with one of the fold reality pink horor units. Then the other fold reality unit cast fold reality on the none fold reality unit. the none fold reality unit usualy hast unchecked mutation, and that unit tries to use the fold reality models to sneak forward into turn 1 casting range.
i don't take another heros as i just use 120 of the pts to upgrade what would be a kairic alcolyte units into a wizard with +1 to cast, and use theo ther 60 to pay for another endless spell.As far as I can tell, Pink Horrors are the most reliable casters (tied with Gaunt + Familiars) other than the LoC. They seem so vulnerable, though I'd be worried that Fold Reality wouldn't reliably last for when it's needed on the enlightens. That's a pretty awesome/sneaky tactic with the Fold Reality into Unchecked Mutation range, but why Unchecked Mutation and not Bolt of Tzeentch or Tzeentch Firestorm?
It might be more worth it for me to take Balewind and Burning Head instead of the Blue Scribes since the Balewind Vortex will be the extra spell cast that I lost from losing the scribes and the extra kills from the Horrors might prove more useful for summoning than re-rolling spell casts. How many turns do you kill your horrors for summoning points past the first turn? There're only so many 1s for Destiny Dice and Fold Reality casts. I can't imagine you can afford to do more than 3 turns of this at most (unless you get really (un)lucky with destiny dice) without losing the units.
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17 minutes ago, mmimzie said:
yeah sure:
LoC, General, Mark of confuration, Magical Supremacy
Gaunt summoner
Ogroid thaumaturge
10xPink Horrors
10x Pink horrors
10x Pink horrors
9x enlightend
Umbral spell Portal
Balewind
Cogs
Burning Head
Pendulum
Is the current iteration. Wall yourself off with pinks and enlightend and slaughter droves of pinks on your first turn to get lots of summoning pts early on. Changes i've waffled on is droping the balewind and umbral spell portal for 10 acolytes to make my screen bigger, but honestly i use the enlightend as much as an anvil as i do as a hammer so i don't feel i need more of a screen.Oh thanks! I'm surprised to see that the shaman was not replaced with another hero. Who are you giving Fold Reality to, here? Do you pay any mind to the Burning Head's to hit buff? It seems really minor, but also seems to synergize very well with Pink Horrors. I'm guessing you're getting 30 blue horrors turn 1 no problem, yeah?
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1 hour ago, mmimzie said:
It really depends i don't tend to save up as even if i'm out of range for alot of my spells the endless pells iwant to start setting up are important enough to get that +1 on on.
That's what I was thinking. Though being unbound is unlikely, it's too important to be successful with those spells on the first turn.
mmimzie, what does your 2k list with 3 pink horror units and no shaman look like?
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8 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:
That's true. You could always use some battalions or shave off 50 points or so to have an extra CP, that would be up to the player.
Don't forget to consider the Battlesmith, He is probably the best force multiplier in the army by allowing units (ignoring the wholly within rule) to reroll all saves. You give that to your VBs and you'll be hard pressed to find a tankier unit on the field.
That does sound useful, but the starter box doesn't come with one. That'd be up to my friend as he's expanding, which sounds like it'll involve buying a lot of vulkite berzerkers lol. He'll have a Runefather (smiter or son) on Magmadroth, a runesmiter and runeson on foot, and 10 vulkite berzerkers.
In terms of choosing a general, is any hero more suited for this role (I'd assume Runefather is the designed general) and in regards to the command traits are there any reasons why a general would be better off on a magmadroth or on foot? Or does the decisions mostly revolve around which command abilities you prefer?
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23 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:
There are two units with the name "Berzerker" in it, the "Hearthguard" and the "Vulkite." The Berzerkers I mentioned before were of the "Vulkite" variety. They are battleline regardless of who the general is.
I could be wrong, but I think the general consensus is the Runefather on Magma is better than being on foot while the Runeson can be decent on Magma and on foot. This is all depending on what you think your army needs more of if anything. Keep in mind this is purely from their command abilities and nothing else, so if you don't have enough command points to use the abilities then there isn't a point and bringing them anyway.
Sometimes there is the advantage of having the option of using on command ability or the other in a given situation. Do lists often have extra command points either from battalions or points?
Sounds like the smartest thing to do would be to make a Runefather on Magmadroth, Runesmiter and Runeson on foot (since those are not optional). I'm intentionally avoiding reading the Fyreslayer rules so we're both surprised by each other's armies when we battle. I might have to get him to look at the book and decide which command abilities and weapons he prefers.
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
I modeled mine with the rod and sort of regret it.
The staff does mediocre damage, an average of 3 wounds inflicted before saves. The damage varies a bit, due to the 2d6 shots, but I don't think I've ever gotten more than 4 wounds with it. I thought I wanted the rod because I didn't want to be in combat, and that's still the case, but I find that running for extra distance is usually helpful because I use the LoC to summon demons. I find myself deciding that the extra distance is more important than the firepower pretty often. On the flip side, though I don't want to be in combat with the LoC, it does still happen.
For perspective, Pink Horrors and Blue Horrors inflict an average of 2.5 wounds with their shooting attacks, so the rod is a bit more firepower than you'd get by summoning another unit of blue horrors.
The curved beak and talons will deal 2.64 -1 rend wounds. The sword will deal 2.46 -2 rend wounds. The sword is superior against all but 6+ armor enemies and even then, it's close enough that I think the sword is more valuable than just the staff (obviously aesthetics can't be measured).
Unless I'm missing something, it seems like a minor decision. I don't think you can go wrong.