DocKeule
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Posts posted by DocKeule
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11 hours ago, vinnyt said:
This has a lot of potential, but I worry about too many resources being devoted to protecting squishy foot characters. 20-30 thralls with thrallmaster is 370-500 points, which is pretty darn good but I might hedge on a single unit of 20 with the thrallmaster as sort of a baseline before seeing the rest of the changes.
Main problem with 30-Thrall units I see that even with 2" you might have problems to get all models into melee or be forced to engage two enemy units at the same time.
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23 minutes ago, Baz said:
DOK and Slaanesh were released a few weeks after their respective battletomes were announced.
Main issue for GW is that all officially previewed AOS stuff has been released so they need to preview more and release. I'm not expecting tonnes of AoS stuff for the next few months but it all cant be 40k releases.
I would also expect the release in the first quarter. But I also don't see the point in putting it up a week or two after the box.
23 minutes ago, Orbei said:Dragon spam is already dumb and IDK don't need shark spam as a counter.
I would really love no more spam-lists at all and fluffier and more mixed lists being rewarded. I personally never went all out on any unit type but other's who did also did much better competitively.
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That they can become battleline under some circumstances is pretty much a given with the wording on the warscroll.
I would prefer that to depend on a hero than an enclave but the enclave is more probable. -
35 minutes ago, vinnyt said:
you absolutely can. Look at the SBG release. Everyone was freaking out about the army being super underpowered at the end of 2.0 and then bam! New edition and it turns out that they're one of the stronger armies around! You may prefer not to, and that's fine, but speaking like you're the arbiter of pre-codex release evaluation is foolish.
Sorry, didn't mean to take your job away from you mate.
35 minutes ago, vinnyt said:I'm also not sure how you can look at the actual honest-to-god math and complain that reavers are a wash at best. I would love to see your analysis.
I don't argue that the stats got improved but that came with a 50 % point increase.35 minutes ago, vinnyt said:Yes, which is why complaining about something being worse is premature. Just like how I'm not saying that sharks are the greatest unit to ever grace the table or are guaranteed meta picks. In fact, all I say is that the new sharks are roughly as damage efficient and survivable in terms of raw stats as they were previously, except now they have more shooting efficiency. However you interpret that is up to you, but the pure math is not really debatable.
Again: That ist not the main issue although I would weight the loss of the void drum effect higher than you (for reasons that I just listed like attacks with more than one damage, stacking of protective abilities and the limitations on commands). But a rise in points by 40 or about a third is my problem when the bottom line is one more damage in shooting.
35 minutes ago, vinnyt said:And how often were y'all getting shark units in cover? Because I basically never did. You're not able to ever shoot at the sharks because I screen appropriately and charge with them (which removes the benefit of cover). I honestly don't think, in the 18ish games I've played with deepkin, that I've ever said to myself "man, I sure am appreciative of cover on turn one and would absolutely prefer that over reversing the tides with fuethan". In fact, you can look at the whatever number of battle reports I've posted here in detail to see exactly how I use my sharks to maximize their effectiveness. Oh, and the more (currently available) buffs you stack on the new sharks, the more insane they get since shooting is far and away the most effective form of damage in 3.0. Once you get 2srr1/2/-1/d3 damage across multiple gatling shark units, you're gonna start causing real problems across the board.
That is exactly my point that sharks will usually not have cover.
37 minutes ago, vinnyt said:And I've moved away from the turtle (in the current book) since its damage output really isn't that great (even new sharks are more damage efficient) and there are too many mortal wounds floating around the meta (nurgle just rips through the turtle).
For me the turtle often did the important damage where it mattered to take out or at least bracket HQ units.
37 minutes ago, Baz said:LVO preview next Thursday is probably when the battletome will be announced.
Since it isn't released with the box I don't expect the new book to follow that soon. Just gut feeling though.
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2 hours ago, vinnyt said:
I would say the only background we can safely judge the changes are WITHOUT any other current rules since they're likely to change.
That does not make any sense.
We can only judge the profiles in the light of A ruleset and the the only one we have is the one we currently operate with. You cannot judge stats in a vakuum (which was pretty much one of your main arguments so far) or what we fantasize what the new rules might look like.
Everybody will surely reevaluate the assessments once the new battletome drops just as we did when the new core rules were released and here and there Reavers all of a sudden got some playtime after being virtually unused for well over three years.
It is entirely possible that the new book will show us a completely different picture but as long as we are playing with the old book and in AoS 3 the sharks got pretty clearly worse and Reavers are a wash at best.
4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:Is there any speculated date on the IDK Battletome release?
Nothing with substance. March had been thrown around since before the battle box was announced. But that is only based on some reddit rumors as far as I know.
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That math is a little shaky when you only consider only -1 rend while higher rends are getting more common. Also a lot of -1 rend attacks do more than one damage. Attacks with higher rend usually do even more damage.
So up until now we could keep sharks in the turtle bubble, maybe in cover, give allout defense and maybe a mystic shield. So we could stack effects to keep our Allopexes alive.
We have cover in turn one and five (turn four of we reverse the tides). During the rest of the game cover often is not an option especially for an aggressive unit like the Allopex. Most IDK players also don't use much magic so there often won't be a caster there or in range to give them mystic shield.
In addition we can have multiple units of sharks in one turtle bubble but can only cast mystic shield once per round and issue allout defence once per phase to one unit. Which is a double disadvantage because to protect one unit of sharks throughout one round we now have to invest two to three command points (depending on if shooting is a factor).
And on what might or might not be in the new book - well that is all speculation. There might be changes and synergies that change the in game value of sharks. We don't know. The point structure might change completely and in the end sharks could be out cheapest cavalry unit again. Again we don't know anything. We don't even really know when the new book will drop. Everybody is expecting it soon but...we don't know. Could be on pre-order next week or still taking some weeks or even month.
The only background we can safely judge the changes are the current rules. And there sharks pretty clearly got a damper. I will reevaluate that judgement when we get new rules but I am playing in an event next week which had it's list deadline a little over a week ago. If I had to write that list again today I would be 160 points over. And that is definitively not a plus.-
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Somebody postet a great hammerhead sharks and sawfished in the international IDK group on FB.
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To be honest though that was 2nd edition that hat a completely different underlying trend than third. Pretty much everything went um with the GHB 2021 and the new Nurgle tome followed the same road.
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1 hour ago, GrimDork said:
I wonder if the soulrenders bring back ability will become similar to or maybe an improved version of the rally command? Maybe on a 5+ instead of 6+?
It would even be kind of OK if it worked in every battleshock phase instead of just your own.
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If you deepstrike the Reavers I would at least give them a unit of Ishlaen to screen them so they can shoot unhindered as long as possible.
Maybe even go Briomdar and deepstrike an additional turtle like 20 Reavers, 2 Ishlaen and a Leviadon. -
It's kind of hard to judge three warscrolls without any idea what direction the new book is taking. What I have seen from the Nurgle book and new Nurgle battle reports makes me somewhat optimistic.
But there seems to be a tendency to raise point costs lately. The last GHB did it. So did the Winter FAQ and the Nurgle battletome. If you look at 2000 points Nurgle armies now especially with more than one Great Unclean One or Glotkin there is not that much else on the table.
Per personal conspiracy theory is that GW wants to establish 3000 as a more common game size. Could be that they are only trying to lower the bar for newer players but a lot of long time players must be like me looking at all the stuff they habe bought, build and painted and be like: "I would kind of like to use it" -
3 hours ago, GrimDork said:
I'm liking the reavers new stat line, 2 attacks without the different fire modes just seems easier and will probably balance out through the course of a game. Especially with how the fire mode selection was model based rather than unit based.
It might be a subtle nerf to reaver spam armies especially when unleashing hell, but I think it's a good call.
The Reaver spam was pretty much dead with the december FAQ when only models within 6" of the unit that charged could shoot.
Not sure if they put them back into oblivion now though with 170 points. The only use I coult think of is deepstriking them with a Soulscryer and an Ishlaen unit to shield them. Other than that I would guess it will take them too long to get in range of anything significant to justify these points.2 hours ago, AHexInScarletRed said:Maybe Thralls get a transport option pulled by a Kraken, haha. The combat profile is insanely good offensively regarding them being basic Battleline. Them now being 2" range makes them really dangerous if they manage to get in place (and they are so easy to buff!).
Agreed. They should hit pretty hard. On the other hand to get the optimum out of them you have to keep them pretty close to their supporting heroes. With Lotann, the Thrallmaster, an Eidolon of the Storm and a Leviadon we are talking 2+ to hit (re-rollable) with exploding sixes 2+ to wound -1 rend and that on as many units as you can get in a 12" bubble. That's nothing too sneeze on.
2 hours ago, AHexInScarletRed said:Are there deepstrike options for them apart from the Soulscryer?
Soulscream Bruidge but other than that no.
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Thralls have been greatly improved. We will see if that brings them back into the competitive realms (I could imagine the lack of mobility might still be an issue) but for fluffy lists they will finally see some daylight.
Reavers looked good first but not für 170 points. If you look at what Lumineth Sentinels do for the same amount of points the Reavers don't even get close.
The increase on Allopexes is still hefty. They got up by almost a third while the two extra wounds and losing the void drum effect is a wash a best.
I am a little afraid of the point changes in the new book after seeing this. -
Oi, that's hefty. So armies are going to get smaller again.
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That's huge for Reavers. Rend and 3+ 3+ 😮
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The sharks go up to 10 wound is a mixed bag. Now they can't get the +1 to saves from the turtle (unless that is also changed in the new book).
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Thrilling news fellow friends on the sushi elves. If there aren't fake....
Spoiler
Thralls got their 2" reach
Iron bearer has been upgraded to a champion
And +1 damage now triggers at a wound characteristic of three or more
Spoiler
Allopexes get a new coherency rule of 3"
The harpoon now does D3 damage (wonder if Leviadons will be changed to the same stats)
The wording "if this unit has two or more models" suggests that units of more than two sharks are possible (battleline?)
When they have two or more models they get a champion a well
All in all that looks great. Also both units have not lost any warscroll abilities.
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In theory that isn't even that hard but you either would have to spend a lot of points (and money) on warpgrinders who don't do much after they showed up or go with Stormfiends and then lose a Rattling Cannon for the grinder which is also meh.
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Yes, looks like you could pick a stance at the beginning of every combat phase. With the bits we know so far it might even be possible to run more than one Thrallmaster and apply more than one stance on the same unit(s) at the same time. We will have to wait and see how good Namarti are going to be with the new book to see if that could be worth the points though.
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13 hours ago, AHexInScarletRed said:
I'm a Soulblight player lurking here and occasionally wishing to expand into the Depths, haha. On the new Hero: I'd love Mor'phann with Lotann, Soulrenders and the Thrallmaster to become viable and on top I wish for another big monster with the new Battletome, preferably a Kraken. I think that'd be the point having me finally invest into the army. LRL's take on water will be interesting in the future too.
I would be surprised if we got a third big centerpiece model (fourth if you count both Eidolons).
I would not be surprised on the other hand if the Thrallmaster would be the only new unit we get in this edition since that's what most faction updates looked like for quite a while now.
BTW: It strikes me as interesting that the Thrallmaster's buffs as well as those from the new Fyreslayer hero only last during the combat phase. This might be the new thing just as the first IDK book was the first with the "wholly within" rules. Little strange though to start that with the fourth book of the edition. -
I am afraid you can't. You would have to declare them one by one like: Your opponent puts a unit on the table and you say that a weapon team is hidden. Then he puts another unit in the table and you declare one etc.
You have five heroes and twelve units. The lowest you could get would be using three battle regiments to have three drops. -
I think they technically still are a drop even if you don't put them on the table at the beginning. You have to declare with each unit individually that they are hidden in another unit or go underground etc.
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Well...
Lotann lets Narmati re-roll ones on melee and for missile attacks and will probably be cheaper than the Thrallmaster.
The other two stances could be interesting for a Namarti-heavy army (again: Thralls benefit more than Reavers) - the defensive one probably even more that the exploding sixes.
Not sure if that gets Namarti over the hump compared to Akhelian lists though. -
29 minutes ago, Megahurtz said:
I believe this is not possible? "Instead of setting up this model on the battlefield, you can place this model to one side and say that it is set up tunnelling as a reserve unit. If you do so, when you would set up another friendly SKAVENTIDE unit that is not a MONSTER or a WAR MACHINE, instead of setting up that unit on the battlefield, you can say that it is joining this model tunnelling as a reserve unit." From battle scribe, I do not own the Skaven book yet. Of course SF can tunnel on their own.
Wasn't that two units that could go with the Warp Grinder team not too long ago?
That makes the grinder a lot less attractive unless you hide weopon teams in a unit of Clanrats.
AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion
in Order
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The King's main benefit is making the eels battleline. So in an Akhelian-heavy list he will probably still have a place.
If that is still the meta when the new book drops remains to be seen.