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    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    22 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

    I've been trying to explore a lot of different Soulblight variations, so far focusing on Nagash and zombie apocalypse lists. Most people seem to be pushing character heavy lists, but I'd like to propose a different direction focusing on maximizing efficiency.

    To begin, I'd like to illustrate the efficiency gap between Blood Knights and the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon. Math ahead:

      Reveal hidden contents

    Two units of Blood Knights, charging:

    • 28.44 rend 1 damage
    • 7.4 rend 0 damage
    • 84.38 expected wounds assuming an average incoming rend of .75 with Deathless Minions, 67.5 without
    • Cost: 390 points

    Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, charging:

    • 8.83 rend 2 (12.38 with Sangsyron)
    • 4.66 rend 1
    • 37.8 expected wounds assuming an average incoming rend of .75 with Deathless Minions
    • Cost: 435 points

    Overall damage comparison (BK, Sangsyron, VLoZD base kit)

    • vs. - : 35.84/17.04/13.49
    • vs. 6+: 34.6/17.04/13.49
    • vs. 5+: 28.63/16.26/12.71
    • vs 4+: 22.66/13.42/10.47
    • vs 3+: 16.69/10.58/8.21
    • vs 2+: 10.71/7.74/5.97
    • vs 2+ +1: 5.97/4.9/3.72
    • vs 2+ +2: 5.97/2.48/2.25

    Despite being cheaper, the Blood Knights vastly outperform in every category the minimum damage difference is +60% vs. vanilla VLoZD and +22% vs. Sangsyron. The maximum difference is +166% vs. vanilla and +110% vs. vanilla. Defensively, the Blood Knights have +123% more weighted effective wounds with Deathless Minions and +79% more without.

    Of course, the VLoZD does have advantages: it's faster until it takes quite a bit of damage, can heal and perform heroic actions, shoot a little, and is a monster. But that gets counterbalanced some against the Blood Knights being able to "retreat" and charge and sprinkle mortal wounds in the process.

    The Blood Knights also scale equal better off of nearly every buff. +1 Damage to rider weapons and +1 Attack all scale the Blood Knights better than the VLoZD. Bonuses to hit and would and exploding 6's are roughly equivalent.

    The VLoZD clearly has better activation efficiency, but I'm not sure that this is as much of a benefit in 3.0 as it was in 2.0. I know people are still in the mindset of "hit as hard as possible with one thing, charging with more just gives your opponent the opportunity to swing back," but I think people haven't fully absorbed how the new command abilities change the dynamic. If you charge one enemy unit, your opponent gets to use all-out defense to significantly soften the blow. If you charge multiple enemy units, your opponent has to pick where to use AOD, and the thing they don't pick is going to get hit a lot harder. So now it's a lot more attractive to charge multiple targets, particularly if you can charge with at least one more unit than your opponent has in combat. If you charge 3 into your opponent's 2, your opponent can soften the blow on one thing and then you use AOD on whatever they choose to strike first on, thus allowing you to get two activations against a soft target to your opponent's 1 (and that 1 being with a damaged unit at that). Hitting multiple targets also carries the benefit of pressuring battleshock, which is a real thing in 3.0.

    So in the end I see lists running one or more dragons and can't help but wonder if they wouldn't be better off running more and more Blood Knights instead.

    So what heroes might a Blood Knights focused list want to run? None of the options are at all competitive with BKs for actual combat efficiency, but how much value do buffs add? Let's explore it (more math!):

      Reveal hidden contents

    Here's the % increase in damage output achieved by various buffs along with the absolute rend weighted damage output increase per unit of BKs buffed:

    +1 Hit OR Wound: 26.4%, +5.98

    +1 Hit AND Wound: 60%, +13.6

    +1 Damage to riders: 42%, +9.52

    +1 Attack: 33.3%, +7.55

    Exploding 6's: 26.4%, +5.98

    Units that can buff BK's include: Belladamma, Radukar, Mannfred, Vengorian Lord, Coven Throne, any non unique hero (Rousing Commander, Sword of the Red Seneschals, Unholy Impetus)

    Of the non-unique heroes, I don't think it's worth considering the regular Vampire Lord as it's so easy to snipe. The Vengorian Lord, Coven Throne, and VLoZD are worth considering as they can all keep up with Blood Knights relatively well. A Necromancer is also worth considering because it's cheap and might have additional usefulness, but one must keep in mind that keeping in buff range will be MUCH harder.

    Lets look at a ton more math on these options. What I'm going to try to do here is calculate the total combat value provided by different options between their innate combat ability and the value of the buffs they provide.

      Reveal hidden contents

    NOTE: One unit of charging Blood Knights unbuffed has a weighted offensive value of 22.67 at a cost of 195 points, for a WOR (weighted offensive rating) of .116.

     

    • Belladamma is mostly being taken for her casting profile, but her exploding 6's buffs does provide .03 WOR per target.
    • Radukar the Wolf alone has a base WOR of .047 (self buffed) and provides an additional .05 WOR per buffed target.
    • Radukar the Wolf plus bodyguard has a base WOR of .068 (self buffed) and provides an additional .031 WOR per buffed target
    • Radukar the Beast has a base WOR of .084 (self buffed, includes summoned Dire Wolves but does not assume they are buffed) and provides an additional .024 WOR per buffed target
    • Mannfred has a base WOR of .07 (self buffed) and provides an additional .036 WOR per buffed target.
    • A Vengorian Lord (Clotted Deluge) has a base WOR of .046 (self buffed) and provides an additional .021 WOR per buffed target. Unholy Impetus adds an additional .027 WOR per buffed target. Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .06 (self buffed) and adds an additional .034 WOR per buffed target.
    • A Coven Throne has a base WOR of .031 and provides an additional .044 WOR from its buff. Sword of the Red Seneschals adds .019 WOR per target, Unholy Impetus adds .024 WOR per target, and Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .048 and adds .031 WOR per target
    • A VLoZD has a base WOR of .048. Sword of the Red Seneschals adds .014 WOR per target, Unholy Impetus adds .017 WOR per target, and Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .053 and .022 WOR per target.
    • A Necromancer is mostly being taken for casting, and is unlikely to be able to get Unholy Impetus or Sword of the Red Seneschals to work, but Rousing Commander adds .076 WOR per target.

    A few conclusions from this:

    Both versions of Radukar are good bets to be offensively "profitable" at least the turn they charge. As long as you're buffing two units of Blood Knights with the command ability (which should be easy given the 18" radius), you're getting more WOR than you would if you had invested the points in more BK alone. Furthermore, these options aren't actually bad on defense either. Radukar the Beast + his wolves has a defensive efficiency of .16 (albeit at the cost of a CP), and Radukar the Wolf with 2 Nightguard has a defensive efficiency of .118. Blood Knights have a defensive efficiency of .207, so you're giving up some defense but less than in comparison to most heroes.

    Mannfred is pretty easy to make profitable as well. If he can buff two targets (which isn't trivial but should be doable pretty often) he'll exceed the WOR value of pure BK. He also has the benefit of being a 2 wizard and a monster hero along with superlative mobility. His defensive profile is a bit hard to pin down due to uncertainty around how many woulds his armor will negate. At minimum he's just below half efficiency compared to BK, but at just 3-4 wounds negated he starts pulling even with Radukar the Wolf.

    The Vengorian Lord can plausibly break even or exceed on WOR but it's not easy. With Rousing Commander plus either his spell going off or Sword of the Red Seneschals, all hitting two targets he's solidly in the black. But with RC being a once per game thing he's going to have a tough time breaking even most of the time. Defensively he's OK, particularly in melee, and he has the benefit of being a monster hero.

    The Coven Throne lags pretty far behind except when using Rousing Commander, which when combined with the command ability gives us an easy total WOR of  .154 with something getting +1 save in addition. But again, that's once a game. It's not going to be easy to make Sword of the Red Seneschals work here at all, so Fragment of the Keep is a more likely artefact choice. I could see this as an option that is more oriented toward providing defense with a splash of offense. That +1 save is worth a bit under half a unit of Blood Knights in defensive efficiency, assuming the enemy actually attacks the buffed unit.

    The VLoZD does just a hair better than breaking even with both Rousing Commander and SoRS buffing two targets, so I don't think this one is going to get there based on efficiency, especially given that it is far behind on defensive efficiency.

    If you can actually manage to buff two things with Rousing Commander on a Necromancer you're getting well ahead that turn, but it's going to have a hard time using an artefact effectively except for possibly the Grave-sand Shard.

    Belladamma isn't going to get there on offense, so if you take her you are doing it for her magic prowess. That said, I'm not really sold on Belladamma in this kind of list. She's very helpful against shooting, but I don't think shooting armies are going to be particularly problematic for a list that is just spamming bodies that are efficient on both offense and defense and are reasonably fast. Furthermore, to make her reliable as a caster requires significant extra investment.

     

    Overall, I think the two heroes that are clearly at the top of the pile are Mannfred and Radukar (either version). The Vengorian Lord and Coven Throne could both work but are pretty marginal and clearly behind the two unique heroes. The VLoZD is substantially worse, and I don't think Beladamma makes much sense for the reasons mentioned above. The Necromancer is a bit of a wild card.

    So that leads me to the question: could it really be optimal to just forego a command trait and artefact? I really think it might, depending on the list. Mannfred and Radukar both are just better than what the trait and artefact provide on any hero for this kind of list, so it only makes sense to dip to a non-unique hero if you're already taking Mannfred and Radukar. I suppose a hero package of Mannfred, Radukar the Wolf and a Vengorian Lord (810 points or 905 if you take nightguard) could make some sense, but that's really more points than I'd want to be spending on heroes. Mannfred and Radukar the Beast is a more palatable 695, or wolf at 530/625 depending on nightguard.

     

    As far as subfactions go, I think it's pretty clearly between Kastelai and Legion of Night. I get that Vyrkos can build a very strong VLoZD with Hunter's Snare and either amulet or Sangsyron, but I wonder if that is a trap.

    Kastelai has the benefits of an easier grand strategy, better performance on battleplans that care about battleline units for scoring, and the uncertain value of Might of the Crimson Keep. I think figuring out how useful that last one is will take a lot of test games.

    Legion of Night has the benefits of redundant generals and an easier path to actually resolving spells through a Necromancer carrying Morbheg's Claw. But you'll need three battleline units that aren't Blood Knights (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as having some blocks of zombies could be useful for counterbalancing the otherwise low model count for objectives.

     

    Here's a few lists:

     

    Basic Kastelai

      Reveal hidden contents

    Mannfred

    Radukar the Beast

    6x5 Blood Knights

    1x10 Dire Wolves

    Probably Battle Regiment + Hunters of the Heartlands or 2 Battle Regiment

    52 models, 384.53 weighted effective wounds

    Kastelai with bats + zombies

      Reveal hidden contents

    Mannfred

    Radukar the Beast

    5x5 Blood Knights

    1x3 Fell Bats

    1x40 Zombies

    Again probably Battle Regiment + Hunters of the Heartlands or 2 Battle Regiment

    80 models, 371.1 weighted effective wounds

    Go Wide

      Reveal hidden contents

    Mannfred

    Radukar the Wolf

    Necromancer

    4x5 Blood Knights

    2x40 Deadwalker Zombies (or 1x40, 2x20)

    1x2 Kosargi Night Guard

    Can be Legion of Night or Kastelai. Lots of battalion possibilities, but Battle Regiment + Hunters or Battle Regiment + Vanguard or double Battle Regiment probably best.

    105 models, 335.1 weighted effective wounds

    The first list is just crazy raw efficiency. The damage potential is very high and the effective wound count is insane, but the body count is relatively low.

    The second list is like the first list but compromises effective wounds slightly for more bodies.

    The third list has significantly fewer effective wounds but a ton more bodies and it can also potentially be Legion of Night to leverage Mannfred and a Necromancer into legitimate casting threats with Morbheg's claw. The gain in defensive efficiency from Mystic Shield, Overwhelming Dread and/or Fading Vigor could easily offset the loss of effective wounds. Mannfred, Radukar and the Necromancer all are crazy good at scaling the zombies up if the opponent focuses too hard on the Blood Knights.

    Perhaps more later.

    Thanks for the nice write up. I'm in some what of the same camp. All my lists seem to have 2 versions, VLOZD and then the same list but with 2 units of BKs. I was late to the new book so Im still waiting to buy actually BK models.

    One other thing with our book is that we don't have a lot of good, unnamed hero options to be our general. VLOZD has the option of getting to a 5++ with Amulet and can be a buffing or utility piece with certain Command Traits. You can get some mileage out of some of the Command Traits on Necro but I do think Amulet on VLOZD is quite good.

    I think 10x BKs might be the better option in a lot of situations but I'm also finding that in Legion of Night I can get Pinions off pretty reliably (+2 to cast) and having a 20 inch flying anvil is pretty good with Zombies. Allows you to swamp opponents. If he's your general it also lets you get in range for CA's on your Zombies, which can be important. 

    I do think VLOZD is perhaps outclassed in some ways by 10xBKs but he does fill a role and is a good piece. I'm trying out the Legion of Night CT that allows him to add attacks to Soulblight Units if he kills a model. It's only 12 inches though... wish it was 18.

    • Like 1

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    29 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

     

    As far as your zombie list goes I ran something somewhat similar. I didn't run the VLoZD or Grave Guard and instead ran lil Radukar, Torgilius, 2 nightguard, 5 Blood Knights and 140 total Zombies (3x40 and 1x20). I only have one game in with that list though, but it was a solid win against Lumineth with Teclis, 40 sentinels and 40 wardens. I think some flavor of Radukar is really key in any Zombie list as he scales them so, so well.

     

    Some good points by you. As you can see from the above post, I'm all in Zombies so I agree with your takes :) 

    I'm really liking VLOZD in Legion of Night next to Mannifred over Radukar. Radukar can buff Zombies in two ways and you can give VLOZD a CA to do something similar to Radukar. I do think Radukar is a solid option though. He's actually very tanky next to Nagash with his -1 hit and rerolling 1s to save. A nice option. 

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted · Edited by Warbossironteef

    Here's what painting 70 zombies on strips of cardboard looks like in case anyone was interested :)

    Still WIP. Last picture is after some oil washes. Starting to bring them to life (or bring them to death?)

     

    20210728_081544.jpg

    20210728_081757.jpg

    20210727_175959.jpg

    20210729_085525.jpg

    • Like 4
    • LOVE IT! 1

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    Last time I'll post a list on here for awhile but I think after a few games I've finally fine tuned a decent version of Zombie list. We all know how important Necromancer's spell is and I've found without support it doesn't go off. Legion of Night helps with this and also offers some additional utility with Unholy Impetus.

    You could also remove Gorslav and lean more into Skellies and additional GG but I just dont have those models. I think this is a all around solid Zombie list if anyone else is looking to bring 100+ zombies. I wish the Unholy Impetus was a bigger range so it may not always work out but I'm interested to try it. The other attack buffing pieces in the book I'm not a fan of, regular Vamp Lord on foot being one of them. 

    LEADERS
    Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Command Entourage
    - General
    - Command Trait: Unholy Impetus
    - Deathlance
    - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
    - Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
    Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380) in Battle Regiment
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
    Necromancer (125) in Command Entourage
    - Artefact: Morbheg's Claw
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
    Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75) in Command Entourage
    UNITS
    40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
    40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
    40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
    20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment
    - Great Wight Blades
    TOTAL: 1985/2000 

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Eldarain said:

    Hey my unliving friends. I'm looking to have an army from each Alliance and I'm torn between Soulblight and Nighthaunt.

    Here's the kind of thing I'd hope to run. I really like the summonable buff stacking and enemy debuffs. I think the Mortarchs complement each other well and access the superior lore.

    Let me know what you think.

    Cheers.

     

    Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
    - Lineage: Legion of Night
    - Mortal Realm: Shyish
    - Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

    Leaders
    Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380) in Battle Regiment
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
    Neferata, Mortarch of Blood (365)
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
    Vampire Lord (140) in Battle Regiment
    - Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
    Necromancer (125) in Battle Regiment
    - General
    - Command Trait: Unbending Will
    - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

    Battleline
    40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
    - Reinforced x 1
    40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
    - Reinforced x 1
    10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment

    Units
    5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
    5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment

    Core Battalions
    Battle Regiment

    Total: 1995 / 2000
    Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
    Allies: 0 / 400
    Wounds: 164
     

    That type of list looks fine. You're not getting too much of Legion of Night but it looks pretty good. I'd consider taking the +2 to cast artefact because none of your casters have any bonuses to cast. Id also consider giving your Vamp lord Pinons spell to help him get into position to give his buff out. His CA is a small range. I'm not the biggest fan of that model but you can make it work! 

    Skellies and GG are also great options to buff.

     

     

     

     

    • Thanks 1

    AoS 2 - Ogor Mawtribe Discussion

    in Destruction

    Posted

    What do you guys think about this Kraggy list? It doesn't use a Mawtribe instead it goes all in on Command points. I think it does a few things well:

    -It has super tanky units. Kragnos and Runetokens FLOSH are naturally bulky and All Defense makes Ironguts pretty tanky as well. All of the big hitters are independent and, because all your buffs come from Command points, you can super easily move them to whichever unit needs it the most that turn.

    It's super low on wounds and model count but I think it would take a turn or 2 to kill one of the threats and the all of them can do some serious damage. Kragnos gives Ogors some anti-magic which is much needed.

    I'd love to give it a few games on TTS before buying Kraggy. 

     

    Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes
    - Grand Strategy:
    - Triumphs:
    LEADERS
    Frostlord on Stonehorn (430) in Battle Regiment
    - Artefact: Alvagr Rune-tokens
    - Mount Trait: Metalcruncher
    Icebrow Hunter (125) in Command Entourage
    - General
    - Command Trait: Winter Ranger
    Kragnos, The End of Empires (695)
    UNITS
    8 x Ironguts (490)
    2 x Frost Sabres (55)
    2 x Frost Sabres (55)
    2 x Frost Sabres (55)
    2 x Frost Sabres (55)
    TOTAL: 1960/2000

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted · Edited by Warbossironteef

    1 hour ago, Honk said:

    Yes… if taken, he get the SBGL keyword and with it the Lineage keyword, too. Tricky thing is, that he doesn’t have the VAMPIRE keyword, which is needed for a lot of dynasty abilities, actually the only one he can use is the LoN ambush.

    Thanks. I thought so. He can also benefit from Morbhegs Claw :) "Legion of Night Wizards" 

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    18 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

    The same thing every other list does: keep it away from your critical stuff and try to kill everything else/win on objectives.

    I don't know that there is any army out there that can reliably kill Archaon if the Archaon player is careful. Just try to minimize his damage by zoning him out, retreating during your turn if he is engaged etc.

    I've been getting in some reps with Nagash and enjoying it a lot. So far I have used two builds:

    Build 1:

      Reveal hidden contents

    Vyrkos Dynasty

    Nagash

    Necromancer (general, pack alpha, amulet, overwhelming dread)

    Radukar the Wolf (pinions)

    2 Kosargi Nightguard

    2x40 Zombies

    1x20 Zombies

    Spellportal

    1 Drop Battle Regiment

    Build 2:

      Hide contents

    Legion of Night

    Nagash

    Necromancer (general, Master of Magic, Morbheg's Claw, Levitate)

    Radukar the Beast

    2x20 Zombies

    1x40 Zombies

    Spellportal

    Lifeswarm

    2 Drop Battle Regiment

    This can alternately be built with lil Raddie and either 2 nightguard and 3 bats or 4 nightguard as a 1 drop

    I found that you're 100% correct about the Necromancer in Vyrkos. Vanhels very rarely resolved. I also even ran into some issues with Nagash against heavy anti-magic like Seraphon. If he gets bracketed down to +2 or even +1 to cast it's very hard for him to recover, and this really limits your tactical flexibility.

    With the Vyrkos build I was typically swimming in CP and rarely if ever ran out. I've only gotten one game in with the second list so far but when going first in a battle round it was definitely a bit constraining (particularly the first round where you want to use Nagash's CA and Radukar's summon.

    The Legion of Night version gives you a MUCH better chance of resolving Vanhels and can even help Nagash out against heavy anti magic/bracketing. I hate losing Pack Alpha, but I think it might be worth it.

    Just cobbled together a solid victory against Idoneth in which I miscast on Nagash on his second spell on turn 1 and then got double turned 1->2 XD.

    Overall I'm not super sold on Belladamma in a Nagash list. I'm just not afraid of shooting against Nagash except a Lumineth list that is bringing a lot of sentinels, and Belladamma doesn't help so much against that given the 4+ spell ignore and 5+ ward. Most shooting is rend 1 at best, which is easy to negate with All out Defense. You can even ignore rend 2 once per game with Finest Hour. Even a double volley from Morathi Stalkers is only 5 mortal wounds on average. Very easy to heal through.

    Do we know 100%  if Nagash gets the Legion of Night keyword if taken under Legion of NIght? He gets teh Soulblight keyword so I'm guess The Cursed Bloodlines rules then applies to him? 

     

    I really like that Legion of Night tech.

    The only thing about your list is I don't like spamming Zombies as much with Nagash as I do in other lists. I think units like Skellies, Direwolves and GG are more cost efficient with Nagash because they actually benefit from reroll 1 of saves and the reroll to hit. Zombies dont. That said, 40 battleshock Zombies are not bad for 230 I just think other units pair better with Nagash.

    I would look to at least bring 30 Skellies or 20 GG.

     

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Honk said:

    Not sure if I like the idea of zombies… if they get the alpha, they are probably brutal, wrapping around the whole model activating twice.

    But getting charged by a lord on stonehorn? There won’t be much left to activate 🤨

    I just played this matchup and I had 120 Zombies. They did okay. The units that got charged did their job and hung on for a round of combat and then came back to life (I had Gorslav). I was lucky and we rolled the mission that makes your battleline the primary objective takers so they we really important for that mission.

    I did get to pile in twice once and it was good. Killed a bunch of Yhettis and a Butcher, but Zombies are there to die and hold objectives. I wouldn't put all my resources into them to do dmg.

    • Thanks 2

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    Its a good game for Necro because they dont have great unbinds for his spell.

    30xSkellies would be really good this game. Zombies are okay but they wont get any back because Ogors dont have large infantry units. 

    IMO Mannfred would is MVP in melee matchups. They have no real answers for him. He can do a lot and threaten their backline and weaker units. 

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    42 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

    Yeah maybe. Though the lists are one drop so you have the option to go first and set up, ready to probably receive a double. Necro hopefully starts outside 30". The list has lifeswarm also to maximise recursion. 

    Grave guard go in the grave usually for me, popping out 2.1" behind zombies that also pop out.

    It is all theoretical, I'm probably going to end up gravitating to Kastelai once I get my blood knight count up to at least 15. 

     

    Been waiting to pounce on some BK too... I can only practice games on TTS for so long lol. 

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    7 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

    I like the sound of that, I've has two games of Vyrkos now and Bella has been great.

    Lycancurse is so good for messing with people's plans.

    I don't think I would like to run a 20 of wolves, plus 30 skellies can also be 4+ rerolling 1s. Azyr says they have a 6+ save but it's wrong. Plus the recursion on skellies seems great. 

    I say seems because still not tried them out.

    Grave Guard for me are just amazing, but I agree my version is slow and this could be very annoying.

    5 blood knights did a great job for me today, but they were supported by both Radukars attack buff and bellas exploding 6s. 

    Yeah I think it's a matter of playstyle and situation.  Skellies would be better against certain melee matchups but wolves might be more consistent overall. I think have a hard time seeing an army with 4inch move infantry push out. Yes you can ambush 2x20 man Zombies but you may just get pinned in your deployment zone with the 30 skellies and GG. 

    I think it would be matchup dependent but against top armies I dont see the Necro giving you much, even though I wish he could. 

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    20 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

    Yeah. Not sure I could handle that level of horde to be honest though from a personal playstyle perspective. 

    Currently working on Nagash, hope to get him on the table sometime in the next few weeks after I give my Vyrkos list a few more outings. 

    Will he Nagash, Necro, 30 Skellies, 20 Grave Guard, 2 x 20 Zombies and some endless spells.

    I think that would be a really solid list. I've been thinking about branching out into Nagash as well. 

    I got some more games in and I can tell you that the necromancer against most armies will not be getting his spell off. Specifically in a Nagash list your opponents, any decent one, will save dispells. Necromancer is cheap and durable but usually fails do anything in  my games. It's such a shame he doesn't get the rerolling of Vyrkos.

     The best thing about him is he is cheap and can use Pack Alpha, which is amazing. That said, i think a different version of your Nagash list has legs too. I really like Bella with Nagash because she can help disrupte some shooting armies. Also, Direwolves are good substitutes for 30x skellies. They get to a 4+ rerolling 1s, are faster, 10 more wounds and can fight better. That said the new coherency rules make positioning more challenging, but not impossible. 

    Seems crazy to forgo a artefact and Command trait but Bella is so much better than Necromancer I dont think it matters. I also went with BKs over GG because they are faster, tougher and much more independent.

    Just figured I share some other Nagash ideas! I love the idea of Necro and Skellies plus GG, but his spell is just so freaking unreliable and those units really need the buffs.

    Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (970) in Battle Regiment
    Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
    UNITS
    20 x Dire Wolves (270)
    20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
    20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
    5 x Blood Knights (195)
    ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
    Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
    Umbral Spellportal (70)
    TOTAL: 1995/2000

    • Like 1

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

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    Posted

    2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

    Most things fall to concentrated MW output, to be fair.

    I've had him killed turn 1 by Lumineth one game then tank 30 sisters of slaughter another. 

    The game has skewed, regular damage is way less effective and consistent now due to the save stacking. Mortals are even better because of it.

    I'm not a fan of this direction but here we are. 

    Agreed. Not the biggest fan of the god meta but at least the mission rules are good. 

    SBGL has some good counters to the melee heavy armies. Our ability to put 150 to 200 wounds on the table is also good counter to mortal spam and we have some tanky heroes.

    I havent faced Lumineth or top end Tzeentch lists but our matchups against most armies aren't terrible. 

    I think we especially have good tools against Gargant and Ogors.  Mannfred alone can really disrupt those armies by acting as a fast moving screen/distraction piece that they literally have no counter to

     

     

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

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    Posted

    Has Radukar the Wolf's scroll been discussed in this chat? They warscroll im looking at says, "friendly" and doesn't require the SBGL keyword for either ability.

    Not that it's good, but he could be healing and buffing any Summonable Nighthaunt unit. Kind of funny. 

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

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    Posted

    1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

    He's playing- check the link for Tom Foo. I believe he's Host Arcanum or something. 

    I don't really have the units to speedbump in the list I'm bringing. It's very all my eggs in one basket. I don't usually play Deathstars and I don't think they're for me.

    But yeah, Skeleton speedbump is probably the way to go. I can see why you'd take Hunters in the Heartland, so people can't roar and turn off the autopass battleshock strat.

    I'm still in assembly phase with SB, sadly.

     

     

    Roar doesnt last until battleshock phase. At least i dont think so.

    • Like 1

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

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    Posted · Edited by Warbossironteef

    The tournament winning list has me reworking some of my lists. I think 20 graveguard fit really well in most lists. 280 is sort of the sweet spot for a unit that can hit hard when buffed but not so expensive you lose the game when they get shot off or miss a charge. I dont iown skellies so Im thinking up a similar list but with more zombies and some more mobility. 

    Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
    Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
    Necromancer (125)
    Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75)
    UNITS
    5 x Blood Knights (195)
    20 x Grave Guard (280)
    - Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
    40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
    40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
    40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
    ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
    Chronomantic Cogs (45)
    TOTAL: 1990/2000 WOUNDS

    • Haha 1

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

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    Posted

    50 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

    @Warbossironteef Good luck and hope you've got a quick recipe!!

    I haven't built and zombies, are they just twenty straight forward models or is there any options at all such as different gead or arms,etc?

    Im use an airbrush and oil washes. Im ready to go. :)

    So I really really dislike the GW models.  The tombstone on back thing is not for me. 

    These are just mantic zombies. They are cheap and you get 50 from a box. Not many options but if you mix them up they look good.

    I prefer theas because IMO they have more of a hungry, shambling, horde feel to them. I don't like the sad, weird fantasy thing the new gw models have.

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

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    Posted

    16 hours ago, Kaizennus said:

    First of all, thank you for the suggestions about how to improve my lists. I've made some attempts at what I hope are more focused lists, and using what models I currently have access to (so perhaps not completely optimal).

    Grave Guard Focused List

      Hide contents

    Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
    - Lineage: Legion of Night
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs:

    Leaders
    Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380) in Battle Regiment
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
    Wight King on Skeletal Steed (130) in Command Entourage
    - General
    - Command Trait: Unbending Will
    - Artefact: Morbheg's Claw
    Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Command Entourage
    - Deathlance
    - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
    - Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
    Necromancer (125) in Command Entourage
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour

    Battleline
    20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment
    - Great Wight Blades
    - Reinforced x 1
    20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment
    - Great Wight Blades
    - Reinforced x 1
    10 x Grave Guard (140) in Battle Regiment
    - Great Wight Blades

    Units
    1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80) in Battle Regiment
    3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle Regiment
    3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle Regiment

    Additional Enhancements
    Artefact

    Total: 2000 / 2000
    Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
    Allies: 0 / 400
    Wounds: 112
     

    Rationale

      Hide contents

    Grave Guard have been really good in my "meta" since most of the time I'm going first and sitting on objectives to try and force my opponents to attack into me. My usual opponents play "control" focused lists with high magic/medium shooting so I've found it pretty tough to break into their castles or home objectives.

    The rationale for this list is:

    - Mannfred is an independent unit that can act as support if needed or roam around the board for objective play

    - VLoZD is an independent hammer unit who will probably get shot down by the end of turn one, but "absorb" a lot of resources from the opponent to do so. My hope is also to use it as a way of softening up my opponents anti horde units such as big groups of Bladelords. He has the generic amulet which should hopefully extend his life a little.

    - Wight King is taken as a battleline requirement for the GG. This list goes Legion of Night specifically to take advantage of Unbending Will since I think Battleshock could be a big issue. He has the Morbheg's Claw which seems like a weird choice but I don't plan on engaging him in combat and I think the +2 to casting will help out the Necromancer get his spells off.

    - Necromancer is there for his spell buffs and should be sturdier than a vampire lord due to his wound bouncing.

    - Corpse Cart is another buff piece that will also be an early target for shooting/magic, but everything put into it is something not put into my GG. If it lasts long enough the aura should help the GG stay alive.

    - 20/20/10 Grave Guard should be pretty decent grinders, albeit immobile ones. Very weak to shooting but my hope is that by the time my opponent has worked through the VLoZD and Corpse Cart my GG have already engaged in melee and perhaps Mannfred has worked his way into their backline.

    - 2 groups of Fell Bats to act as screens or harassment for ranged units depending on the situation.

    - This is a 5 drop but could technically be a 2 drop. This is a bit of a meta choice because I know my opponents pretty much always bring large drop lists.

    - Overall, my hope is that this army is relatively self-sufficient because my opponents are really good at locking me down from every casting spells or using many command points, but if the buffs do get off they will make the GG pretty strong.

    - One thing I want to consider is if this would run better in Vyrkos for the consistent +1 to wound and perhaps the guaranteed command ability. Not sure if it's worth losing Mannfred as an additional general, the battleshock safety, and the stronger casting ability.

    Blood Knight List

      Hide contents

    Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
    - Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

    Leaders
    Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
    Prince Vhordrai (455)
    - Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
    Vengorian Lord (280) in Battle Regiment
    - General
    - Command Trait: Swift and Deadly
    - Artefact: Fragment of the Keep
    - Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon

    Battleline
    5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
    5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
    5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
    10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment
    10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment

    Additional Enhancements

    Total: 1970 / 2000
    Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
    Allies: 0 / 400
    Wounds: 121
     

    Rationale

      Hide contents

    - Nothing particularly fancy here. Just a hard hitting, fast list that is almost completely self sufficient and doesn't rely on any command abilities or spells to work.

    - Taking 2 units of Dire Wolves to screen.. but possibly considering a list where I replace the Dire Wolves and Vengorian Lord for a generic VLoZD and some Fell Bats instead.

    Vyrkos List

      Hide contents

    Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
    - Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

    Leaders
    Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
    - Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
    Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Battle Regiment
    - General
    - Deathlance
    - Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
    - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
    - Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
    Radukar the Beast (315) in Vanguard

    Battleline
    10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment
    10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment
    10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment

    Units
    5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
    5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
    3 x Fell Bats (75) in Vanguard

    Additional Enhancements
    Artefact

    Total: 2000 / 2000
    Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
    Allies: 0 / 400
    Wounds: 137
     

    Rationale

      Reveal hidden contents

    * I realize there is some debate on whether or not you must take a sub-faction artefact as your first artefact, so if that's the case then I would change the Amulet to Sangsyron.

    - VLoZD is an independent threat who can also contest an objective with his command trait, though he is likely to die pretty early on.

    - Radukar has been great in games where I got him into combat, but he's very weak to shooting. My hope is that the VLoZD is enough of a distraction to let him get into combat.

    - 4 units of dire wolves when you include Radukar's summon is a fair number of fast units that can screen or run around the backline to harass ranged units. 

    - 2 units of Blood Knights are the third threat but they are pretty unsupported

    - Fell Bats fill in the remaining points and once again can act as a screen or harassing unit.

    I tried to make these lists using the suggestions made in the thread while also taking into consideration the people I play against. For example, Belladamma has been quite bad for me (with or without spell portal) because I just can't contend with the magic in a Zaitrec or Hallowheart list.

    Critique, either about the lists or about my rationales (I wrote them out to give an idea of what I'm thinking about when making the list but I could have lots of misconceptions) would be very welcome~

    Not a fan of the Graveguard list but really like the Kasetali one. You could win a lot of games with that list. Lacks bodies but has a ton of 3+ saves and good dmg output on charge.

    I think that type of list would do well for you!

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

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    Posted

    1 hour ago, Craze said:

    I used 2x20 and was not impressed. :D

     

    What I was impressed with is the Vengorian Lord, he is surprisingly durable and with Sangsyron he packs a decent punch for his points on the charge.

    2x20 only do two things well. 1st is they cost 115 points and the 2nd is the stand there and die :).

    Like others said, they are legit awesome in 40s and 60s. 6 inch pile in is so good. Also, you can bring back 20 and 30 with Gorslav who is only 75 points.

    AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    10 hours ago, Craze said:

    I had a game yesterday against StD with my list mentioned a couple of pages ago. I now have one question: What role do you use Zombies for? To be honest for me they felt REALLY underwhelming: They have ZERO punch and also ZERO staying power, so I cannot even use them as reliable objective holders, they just felt really really underwhelming. :(

    How many were you using? I think zombies are awesome.

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