Fred1245
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Posts posted by Fred1245
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29 minutes ago, Beliman said:
100% agree.
Double tap and fishing for MW (+ Unleash Hell) is what I'm worried about (and the usual power-creep from new battletomes)
I'm not worried about powercreep at the moment tbh.
To me it feels like GW saw the absolute nightmare that was Tzeentch into KO into Seraphon into Lumineth and went 'wait no, do a reverse'.
SoB wasn't particularly high tier, Hedonites of Slaanesh and DoK were both heavy nerfs to their respective factions, and it's honestly kind of debatable if Soulblight Gravelords are even as good as LoN was.
The only outlier was the second Lumineth book which felt like it was actually supposed to come out in the Mega-death block that was DoT+KO+Seraphon.
I know predicting trends with GW is impossible, they don't seem to know what they're going to do next most of the time, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the books going forward are actually the same or worse than they are now.
Look to the Orruk and SCE books to be at best a shuffling of what's good and at worst a straight downgrade on the current tomes(even though neither are great) and then watch the tomes after them chase that same level.
Which will absolutely suck when it's down to 15 out of the top 16 factions at events are Lumineth (most recent book, least likely to see quick update) but w/e.
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3 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:
And yet they only made murder blobs of ranged units even more powerful.
The problem with murder blobs is the amount of buffs you could stack onto one unit. And guess what...you can now stack more buffs on one unit than ever before, and then use that one unit even more efficiently than you could before...as long as it's a shooting unit.
That's the weird thing about the whole thing. All this fiddly work to nerf melee in a game that has been dominated for the last year by ranged combat. Meanwhile, ranged combat only got deadlier.
It's not even just the core rules either:
The DoK battletome was basically an across the board nerf to the post BR:Morathi army(which the Morathi 20 stalkers with full reroll lists were absurd so fair enough) but the thing is, they put just as much effort into making sure Witch Aelf and SoS builds were reigned in by the same amount.
Problem is, WE and SoS builds are very vulnerable to heavy shooting(especially character sniping) and thus had already been falling off since at least KO.
The hard, HARD nerf to witchbrew in the early turns exacerbated this issue to point where a big unit of Witch Aelves is so easy for shooting units to kill in the early game that Lumineth, for example, don't even need to go after the characters, they can just trash the unit and let them kill themselves to battleshock.
This has the Knock-on effect of pushing competitive DoK lists EVEN FURTHER into the Morathi+Stalkers builds they were doing before, despite losing their hero phase TP, their Hero phase shots going first, all Non-CP rerolls, and a fair bit of their defensive bonuses.
TLDR they seem to be just as worried about melee getting out of control as shooting, while totally overlooking that shooting is the much bigger issue right now.
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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:
I'd sooner have them drop inches as a unit of measurement. It's better suited to 1800's and earlier than now.
Dice have 6 sides. Inches function in multiples of 6. Whether you like imperial or not, it's very convenient for this one specific thing.
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I mean...just extending coherency to 2" would do a lot to fix the issues. That's how it is in the game they stole their coherency rules from.
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3 minutes ago, Sivyre said:
I see, makes sense. Thank you for clarifying. English is my 4th language and so understanding some things get by me and why I must edit a 100 times.
I can see why it would be confusing to people who expect there to be some sort of rationale behind things like this.
I mean, why come up with 'sub-commander' and 'commander' when it's as simple as 'small leader' and 'any leaders'?
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11 minutes ago, Sivyre said:
Then enlighten us what exactly is the purpose of a commander? As it is we will just simply slide that ‘leader’ keyword where we please to fulfill core battalion requirements with no restrictions whatsoever meaning the whole commander and sub commander line needs not to exist as it will simply bare no restrictions by your logic.
The ONLY reasons those distinctions exist is to limit how many high wound heroes you can take in 1 battalion and to force you to take small heroes. It means you can't have The Shadow Queen and a Cauldron in the same Battalion.
It is a 100% gameplay only distinction Also, it's not a Keyword, Leader is a battlefield role like battleline is. Commander has no meaning beyond 'Leader you take in a battalion'. You can just cast a magic word spell and make a unit of Grots a commander because they lack the Leader battlefield role.
Also the Core rules say General like...100 times.
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3 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:
NO ROOM FOR AMBIGUITY!!!🤣
Not when people are making up rules that do not and have not existed whole cloth.
We've known general's were still around for weeks.
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1 minute ago, Sivyre said:
Yes and in 2.0 we appoint a general and in 3.0 we will appoint a commander
Except we won't because we still appoint a general, as was spoiled by command abilities stating they could be given within 18" of your GENERAL.
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4 minutes ago, Sivyre said:
While we use general now in 2.0, it’s believed commander will take the new meaning of general. And the general wording will be obsolete just as ward will replace DPR/FNP and the likes.
We've already seen the the entire rules spoiled and that didn't happen.
All of the unit markers have been defined already.
Commander: Leader
Sub-Commander: Leader with less than 10 wounds.
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5 minutes ago, Sivyre said:
This topic has been discussed on several occasions and the consensus is that the ‘commander’ requirement is your general and not filled by any hero - hence why the sub commander wording exists.
It literally says Commander: Leader. The word 'General' isn't in there at all.
Commander isn't a thing that exists in current rules, Leader is already a defined battlefield role. The only reason the Commander tag exists at all is to differentiate it from sub commanders.
Sub-Commander says: Leader with a wound characteristic less than 10. By your logic, sub commanders can only be General's with less than 10 wounds as the entries are EXACTLY THE SAME except for that clause. Reality is that it's just forcing you to make your high wound Leaders your Commander and you low wound leaders your Sub-Commanders.
Add to that the Monster unit Icon using the Behemouth battlefield role to define itself as part of the precedent and it's pretty obvious that all they're doing is stopping you from having 3 KoS as you battalion leaders.
So it's not true RAW and it's stupid RAI to make this whole mix and match battalion system that only a handful of armies can use. It would basically make battle regiment the default choice for EVERYONE.
I don't know who 'the consensus' is but their consensus doesn't make any sense RAW or RAI.
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32 minutes ago, Benkei said:
Also, Morathi doesn't benefit from the healing CA. It's not much of a reason but it's something.
Edit: Daemonettes went up 30% and that didn't prevent the KoS from taking a beating
Slaanesh doesn't count.
Also I assume that part of the FAQ for day 1 with be removing her 3 wounds per turn limitation and forcing the shadow queen to stay within coherency of Morathi-Khaine.
She still won't be allowed to heal.
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3 minutes ago, Fyrm said:
Someone else already pointed out that commanders don’t need to be your general, but I’ll add that we’re also locked out of Linebreaker as we have 1 monster, which is our unique hero.
unless allied units can be put into core battalions? I’m still unsure on if that’s allowed. Then we could get both artillery and monsters for the battalions.
Doesn't have to be a monster, just has to be a non-leader behemoth. You can do it with 2-3 Avatars of Khaine.
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41 minutes ago, Sivyre said:
Depending on the list and the opponents army, it might be viable to do the warlord + battle regiment. It will be interesting as most armies are looking at battle regiment + dealers choice for their second core battalion.
Although like you, and the abundance of CP, entourage does look enticing.
This also happens to be an advantage for DoK as morathi is a general in addition to your chosen general, which covers the need for 2 leaders (generals) - assuming this doesn’t change in the new book. Some armies simply don’t have access to 2 generals on the table so care needs to be used if those armies simply use the battle regiment core battalion.First turns will be more up in the air, or so it seems.
List that do not field morathi-khaine are limited to vanguard + which ever core battalion that requires a leader (your general) if your looking to have 2 core battalions, otherwise likely to just use battle regiment for the 1 drop. Or an unlikely scenario no core battalions at all - and DoK can forego grand artillery as we don’t have those artillery pieces.
Commanders don't have to be your general. They just have to have the leader battlefield role.
You're conflating the two but Leader =/= general.
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6 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:
Not only that, but Kroak and Alarielle both stayed the same, Nagash went up by 5, and Morathi went up by only a trivial amount.
None of this makes any sense. We can all agree that Kragnos was overcosted, but now he has got better, so shouldn’t he stay at the same level, like Alarielle and Kroak? Why didn’t Alarielle come down for the exact same reason? Why did Nagash go up by 5 right after a massive jump instead of staying the same or coming down? Why didn’t Alarielle or Kroak go up by 5 for the same reasons as Nagash? Why only hit Morathi with the 10% bump instead of a targeted nerf? I don’t think anyone was saying Belakor was overcosted in the same way as Kragnks so why did he come down at all?
And how the flip did Archaon only go up 30 and not the Morathi 10%?
For the most part it is clear that there was some kind of algorithm with tweaks after the fact in particular cases (Sylvaneth and Slaanesh aside), but there is no logic to the above exceptions. It’s pure numberwang.
The morathi one is easy: because the rest of army took her increases. Witch Aelves (which, like I have said many times, no one was taking in the new book) went up 20% so that Morathi would still be on every table.
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8 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:
Those examples are completely different.
Clearly, your other models don't benefit from the increase of Sacrament of Blood because it doesn't affect them.
But when you put Sacrament on a unit that advances them to turn 3, the benefits for that unit include "In addition, Friendly Avatars of Khaine are automatically animated." (Bold mine)
It's like if it said, "In addition, friendly models within X gain a benefit", the benefits to a specific unit confer benefits to other units. Except in this case, there's no range - the unit at turn 3 is granting benefits to all Avatars of Khaine on the table.
That's a simple language reading of the rules, not some exploitive interpretation.
It's also one I've seen echoed in multiple places.
Maybe it isn't intended, but its something I saw in multiple places prior to the first big FAQ - and it wasn't addressed there either.
Huh. The rule is written to not include the 'this unit' clause in the new book like it did in the previous one so it looks like you are correct. One major issue from pirating/memorizing the new rules in order to avoid endorsing the battletome is occassionally weird stuff like that slips by.
What a terrible way to write that though. It's stupid to even KEEP that rule at this point. Even when this book does good stuff it does it in a terrible way.
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44 minutes ago, Sivyre said:
That is exactly how it works, you DONT add 1 to the blood rites table for the ENTIRE army, but ONLY the unit receiving the sacrament of blood prayer may add 1 to the number of the current battle round
Sacrament of blood on your blood sisters won’t bare any fruit for your avatar
Exactly. For @KrispyXIV, think about it this way, if you put Blessing of Khaine on you Blood Stalkers, does your Bloodwrack Shrine get to reroll its ward? Or even more accurately, if you put Sacrement of Blood on your Witch Aelves turn 2 in a kellebron army, does that mean your Slaughter Cauldron can reroll 1s to hit?
Prayers only effect the unit they target.
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Matched play battlepacks all include 'No warscroll battalions' so probably not.
GHB has already been spoiled.
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On 6/18/2021 at 11:18 AM, Chumphammer said:
Heart is still great for that turn you want to smash in and reduce damage back. Not all armies have priests and if they do its not many, which means thats the loss of a prayer cast to try and dispel it
With sacrament of blood I can move my avatar turn 1 on a 2+ with Iron circlet and Hagg Nar
Plan is have the hag put witch brew on Snakes, with MR (if it goes off)
Use mirror dance to move cauldron and shrine up to a position where they can get the +1 from avatar
SQ puts sacrament on sisters (now making avatar move for free as they count as being round 3 blood rite) and then have the now forward Hag cast heart into an advanced position.
Can now use ironscale to run and charge the sisters, who will now be under the advanced bubble of fanatical faith and the heart
This would work well on any turn to let me "put the foot on the gas" on these smaller tables.
I always wanna write a Morathi list and a morathi/gotrek list
Im gonna be writing a lot of lists lolIf you're smashing in, there shouldn't BE much damage coming back. It's value comes almost entirely from blunting an opponent's charge, not as much as a 'win more' option when you fight first.
Ironcirclet was difficult to get before and now requires you to forgo an otherwise easy 1drop setup. Avatar is also harder to justify than ever, even with circlet.
I don't really understand what you're going for in the third paragraph. You talk about Mirror dancing the Cauldron UP for the Avatar bonus but the Avatar will be BEHIND you unless you deployed everything else on the back table edge for some reason.
Also, are you saying you would sacrement some Blood Sisters and that would somehow wake up the Avatar before turn 2(as the list is Hagg Narr)? Because that's not how that works.
On 6/18/2021 at 2:11 PM, KrispyXIV said:Note also that Morgwaeths cost is also super easy to reverse engineer. She pays I believe a 10 point premium for being a unique character (this 10 points is probably what needs cut - its not worth it for 2" reach), plus 12 points a wound for the blade coven (EXACTLY the same as Witch Elves).
Whether the blade coven is worth as much as witch aelves (they have a bow in addition to 3 attacks each) is debatable, but Morgwaeths cost is actually EXTREMELY rational.
She's probably only paying 10 points too much currently, presuming we accept witches are costed correctly (they feel high to me).
Morgwraeth is much less than the sum of her parts. I get that she shouldn't be cheaper than a regular hag queen (who are also quite a bit too expensive now that witchbrew is much worse), but 175pts is insane. She exists to give out witchbrew and prayers. Her ensemble exist to die before she does. None of them are capable of accomplishing anything more than that. Pricing them per wound like Witch Aelves ignores basically everything about how Sigmar works.
100% of the blade coven's value is letting Morgwraeth shrug wounds to them. Pretending they can fight or even hold objectives is wishful thinking at best. (And witch aelves were high at 10 ppm).
Hag Queens are at 105ish now, yeah? Realistically I think 90 is probably more fair. If a Hagg Queen is fair at 90 I would put Morgwraeth at 120-130.
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4 hours ago, Warpfiend said:
Do people not feel that some of the points changes could possibly due to new Battletomes coming out soon which will change armies anyway?
I noticed that the Warhammer Community article on Maggotkin contains some strange advice and glaring errors e.g Pusgoyles having 8W rather than 7.
The same article also recommend Nurglings which have gone up by 10 points! This was written by a playetester.
I suspect therefore some of the weirder points changes are because some factions have a BT coming out soon with warscroll changes.
Still doesn't explain Slaanesh or DoK.
Slaanesh has been well documented but the DoK changes are just as baffling.
20% factionwide bump despite the last battletome pruning back power from every aspect of the army.
Morgwraeth going up more than double despite being a mediocre take after the witchbrew change.
Witch Aelves and SoS seeing 15-20% bumps despite no competitive list taking them since BR:M.
Mediocre tech choice units like Doomfires also going up above the average.
Cauldrons recieving significant hits despite the priest changes being extremely harsh on them.
Morathi only going up 10% despite being the uncontested best unit in the book and an auto-include in any even semi-competitive list. Keeping in mind that she gets BOTH hero abilities AND rampage on The Shadow Queen and a seperate set of Hero abilities on MKUltra herself.(My assumption based on current precedent is that they'll be removing her 3 wounds per turn only ability. She still won't be able to heal though.)
Even if you liked the new book(which I did not) the changes don't make much sense.
DoK weren't necessarily bad after the last codex but they weren't in the discussion with Seraphon, Tzeentch, KO, or Lumineth and took a bigger hit than three out of 4 of those armies.
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32 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:
Bad rules are bad in relation to other armies. GW follows a design paradigm according to which you offer "better" options for people who crunch numbers to find. Thus, there must be relative worse options, otherwise there would be no "better choices".
The beauty of this is that, whenever they want to make a product line appealing to number crunchers, they can just tweak the rules.As a matter of fact, they do this, constantly. I am more familiar with the "competitive" gaming side of 40k, and there units rise and fall within months. But there are always several broken options, which can be spotted with a calculator and 30 mins on release of every book. Making them obviously good and obviously bad is just to ensure that we average dummies can spot the good things, but still feel smug.
I believe that GW is aware that some more invested players grumble, but this rotating spotlight system they have, coupled with reward system mastery, seems to be working very well for them. GW does not want you to buy Slaanesh miniatures and that's it. Ideally, you'll have 3+ armies, and you'll rotate between gaming and hobby armies. At some point, every army gets to shine, just wait your turn, etc.
I mean, it's been like this for as long as a I remember, it is just that GW releases way faster now so everything seems more frantic.
This is an incredibly optimistic take that somehow makes it even more predatory that the reality.
GW makes clearly overpowered units as a design crutch, not as a 'reward for number crunchers'. They leave themselves obvious above curve units because they know they're terrible at balance on the margin and at least if they leave something OP, there'll be ONE reasonably effective way to play the army. They did that to DoK right now. 'We'll bump the whole faction up 20% compared to the average 10 but we'll only hit Morathi 10% (despite her being the uncontested best unit in the book) so at least they'll still have 1 really powerful unit to pivot off of. Armies generally get out of control when they make those OP units/strategies and then accidentally get the rest of the codex right (see Drukhari, Late 8th Space Marines).
Secondly, the strategy you're outling is dumb as spit and is likely responsible for bottlenecking sales far more than it is encouraging them. Rotating which MODELS WITHIN A FACTION are powerful drives sales, rotating which factions are dog**** stagnates sales of the bad army as much or more than it boosts sales of the good army resulting ina net zero change AT BEST. Less than 1% of the playerbase is concerned enough with tournaments to go out and buy a brand new faction if their army gets bad and another army gets good and the players who DO have multiple armies have them because they LIKE them and it's incredibly unlikely that even with 3(which is an insane number for one game if you ask me, how do you STORE it all?) That even one of your armies will be that rotations so called 'good one'. It's far more likely that your average player(specifically player, not hobbyist) will stop purchases and/or switch games temporarily or permanently. Any increased sales that come from fixing bad factions come from people already within those factions or who were already looking for an excuse to get in on the faction. Not people who see a GT winning list and go 'whelp time to spend several hundred dollars and several dozen hours for no guarantee!'
Anecdotally, I stopped buying stormcast models after the last codex was lopsided, uninspired bunk, to the point where I'm skipping dominion entirely and only planning on buy yndrasta from ebay box breakers and haven't bothered to pick up the DoK battletome or their endless spells or Shadowstalkers. I used to see that stuff as being on the same level as my electric bill, now I just can't justify spending anything on it and I don't like any of the other factions enough for good rules to matter(even as essentially a tournament only player).
You give GW both far more and less credit that they deserve and seem to think the community is a bunch of powerchasing lemmings who don't have anywhere else to go.
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On 6/16/2021 at 11:11 AM, inflitionz said:
Whilst i agree, i dont think you'll see squads of 30 sentinels for 2 reinforcements slots.
Also 1500 is likely to be more main stream and teclis likely to see points at 760 removes him from 1500 games.
Theres too much up in the air at the moment.
No it isn't. There's nothing to suggest 1500pts will be any more common than it is. 2000 is tournament standard. That's what most games will be. Half the factions in the game are completely reliant on their large centerpiece model to do ANYTHING now. No possible way will people want to go down to 1500.
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1 hour ago, stratigo said:
they really didn't. Having to change up how you play to find the power isn't a nerf to an army, just to the way you play them
It didn't change up how you play the army. That same combo was what was used as soon as broken realms Morathi dropped. They just nerfed it in multiple, multiple different ways (which was mostly fair, the previous version was bonkers).
The problem was they nerfed everything else too so that same unit combo was still the most powerful way to play the army. It was just much worse.
Nothing changed about how the army played, the numbers just got worse.
Now the numbers got worse again with an average 20% bump, second highest of any faction as far as I can tell.
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4 hours ago, Black Blade said:
Can someone explain to me why Blood Stalkers jumped so much? I haven't played in over a year so I'm out of the loop.
The got 2 shots in the last update and were part of a broken combo the new battletome killed.
GW's making pointing decisions for the army based on a made up reality where the last battletome was good and didn't nerf almost everything across the board.
We get the honor of being the second hardest hit faction behind Tzeentch (including the single largest nerf in the update with Morgwraeth going up more than double her current point cost) despite doing nothing meaningful competitively since the Battletome dropped.
At least we're not Slaanesh.
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23 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:
Because there's literally a physical warscroll book for all races in 3.0 release.
Links or it didn't happen. I've seen nothing to suggest anything but the endless spells are getting updated warscrolls.
AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion
in Daughters of Khaine
Posted
I personally thought the tournament players that brought it frequently(and it was included in a lot of 'competitive' lists) were overvaluing it by quite a bit. With how hard it is to get any spell off reliably, even WITH Morathi, I'm not a huge fan of endless spells in general.
On the flip side, if you DO want to leverage our spellcasting, we now have more competition in terms of spell slots. +1 to save makes Mystic Shield a lot more valuable(especially if you're like me and you're not too enthralled by cauldrons at the moment), I still really like Anzipal as a harrassment tool, you're obviously going to want your lore spell and both Shackles and Emerald LifeSwarm are much more attractive picks than they were.