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Jaxler

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Posts posted by Jaxler

  1. 56 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

    Understood. But before painting 80 Zombies just to counter my mates LRL I would ask him to bring his other army to the next gaming night.

    You could say something like his Lumineth look amazing on the table but you miss to get slaughtered by his 4-Khorne-Greater-Demons List  ;)

    I have 80 zombies and 60 wolves anyways, so its no big loss to me, but I can respect the hesitancy.

    • Haha 1
  2. Wolves. 30-60 wolves. take gorslav and hide him behind terrain. start regenerating endless boys. His CP ability stacks with your base summoning, so you get the same number of guys per dead unit.

    If he shoots the neccassry stuff to kill slav turn one (you need 14 wounds), take it as a victory, he's only 75 points.

    Then take more annoying bodies if you want. I'd suggest 40-60 man zombie blobs because more board presence. I'd take the beast because wolves, too. A vampire lord on dummy dragon with +3 save is a good meme too. Maybe sneaky beaky a necromancer in. Just slide into objectives and pick your nose, bubble wrapping characters. In the list i built i have 50 calv bases and 80 infantry ones, you can deny some space. Just sit there, eat glue, and ask them if they're enjoying some quality interactive game play. Honestly, if you wanna hard counter them, convert the zombie dragon into more wolves n zombies. 

     

    • Haha 2
  3. On 7/27/2021 at 5:36 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    Fun detected and successfully prevented :(

    Welcome to this book where nothing works in a fun way. 

     

    My list is 

    Nagash 

    Manfred 

    Gorslav 

     

    Dire wolf

    Dire wolf

    Dire wolf 

    Skeletons 

     

    Mirrors 

     

    Manfred with pinions can zoom up and ooga booga stuff before instant transmissioning away. Mirrors for long range nagash razzle dazzles. Gorslav and legions lets me double my wolf units into 2 5 mans reliably for maximum annoyance and object camping. As for blood line, idk. I dont think they give me anything that matters here, so buuuuh. 

  4. I subscribe to the philosophy that graveguard don't want shields for a few reasons. If they need the extra save, pop a cp. Accept that they don't handle hits to the face, and instead focus on getting them to hit hard and first. 

    • Like 1
  5. The problem is that they're a unit that does nothing. Their dps is bad, their toughness is really bad, and they are too expensive. The book already has a plethora of reasonably priced low dps chaff. Zombies cover lots of area, have consistent (if low) mortal wound output. Dire wolves are good fast tar pits with enough wounds to take a good hit. Skeletons are sturdier in theory. 

    Basically, black knights have no purpose. Even of they were 80-100 points, (which, even then, they'd be questionable) they'd feel bad. They do nothing save sit there quickly. That isn't useless, but like, the book is spoiled for options in that regard. Black knights need a proper role, but they just don't. 

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  6. 10 minutes ago, Honk said:

    Just too bad, the age of big centerpieces... never really was there, but is now gone for ever. Lumineth and flamers... indirect fire with mortal wounds 🙈😖

    But i think we have great units that are not that hero dependent, wolves, bloodknights, vargheists... things that need to be considered. Even the trash mobs get their save from the sites now and can be left alone defending scoring something.

    So sad we lost our bats, but the target priority for shooting is not that obvious anymore...

    Hear me out, the vampire lord on zombie dragon, manny, and the beast all are pretty good. I'd lean on those as well. I personally enjoy the vampire dragon lord manny gank squad rolling up to punk everyone in sight. Also manny if he charges stuff is always going to be ready to buff whatever he wants in a pinch. 

  7. 5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

    @Jaxlerthsnks for all your input. It‘s very interesting and confirms my worries concerning zombies.

    did you try to make a blob of Skeletons more survivable with a corpse cart?

    The corpse cart just ate arrows, or magic. 6 wounds on a 6+ is a bit squishy. The local skaven player's snipers and shooty r-ogres enjoyed mulching it. Lumineth just tear most the synergies in the book to death if they take one or two units of shooty boys.  We also don't have a skylords player, but I can only imagine how that'd go. 

     

    I wasn't using it vs the tree people player, but his everqueen probably just zaps a cart a turn at range. 

    • Sad 1
  8. 22 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    This is basically how I see it, too.

    I played a Deathmarch list before, so I mostly have experience with Deathrattle units. Skeletons never really killed anything for me before they got their new warscroll, and they don't kill anything now. You could heal them a lot before through Deathly Invocations, and they heal a lot on their warscroll now. For me, they are basically the same thing as before, but with a slightly better save and slightly lower max unit size. They are 30 bodies that can sit on an objective and reasonably hold it. That's a good deal at 85 points for 10.

    I have no personal experience with Zombies, but I found this quote from Sam Morgan on the Honest Wargamer stream interesting (paraphrasing): "What people don't yet understand about Zombies is that they just die. They are a good unit, but they just die." For those who don't know, Sam Morgan is the ListLab guy and he used to run Zombies as his battleline in Grand Alliance: Death to good success in tournaments in the past (I think a second place somewhere as recently as a month or two ago). Personally, I think the value of zombies comes from their huge body and wound count for their price, and their 6" pile in. I think that should make them good in the mid field for capturing and hindering enemy movement, even if they "just die". All educated guessing, though.

    Direwolves are basically the same as before: A bunch of hard-to-remove, fast bodies on big bases for cheap. That will always be a useful unit to have.

    All our unconditional battleline are what I would call "trash units". By which I mean that they are cheap units that provide a lot of their value from giving a lot of bodies and wounds for their points, not necessarily from their offensive or defensive capabilities. Above all, they are good value with their incidental healing and resurrection. I think pouring a lot of support into them is a trap. Anything more than one dedicated hero for a max-size unit (30 Skeletons with a Necromancer, 40 Zombies with a Vampire Lord...) seem like overspending to me.

    keep in mind, 10 dire wolves barf out 20 attacks 4s and 4s. black knights barf out 10 attacks 4s and 4s, 10 attacks 4s and 3s. Also, wolves get to wound all those attacks on 3s if they charge. Basically it's the same amount of damage between the two per point. You are correct on black knights being trash, but it's even worse =B

  9. 1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

    Fair enough. I haven't actually gotten any games in with SBGL yet but I've quite a good amount of general experience with a bunch of factions against very high level players, so I'm mostly coming from a broad perspective here.

    I don't think zombies really need anything to do their job. I can see them in a couple of roles. They are a good for initial screening and area denial as they cover a lot of board space on the cheap. They are reasonably defensively efficient and do a good job of squatting on objectives. Their threat radius is also very reliable because they don't have to charge, and there are some nice edge cases where having the ability to attack without charging can be quite useful (avoiding triggering start of combat phase abilities or charge reactions).

    As you know they can also get quite reasonable on offense when buffed (and are more efficient than charging Dire Wolves even when unbuffed, for what it's worth). They don't actually need anything specifically for them -- the best buffers are Mannfred and Radukar, and both of those are potentially worth taking regardless. They aren't there to buff the zombies, but if they happen to be in position to do so then great. I generally agree with you that Blood Knights are likely our top non-hero warscroll, but I can imagine that something like 15 Blood Knights and 80 Zombies could outperform 25 Blood Knights.

    I could easily be wrong though.

    Also, I don't intend to be confrontational at all but I find it a little odd that you're claiming to have extensive play experience but are being cagey about how many games you've played with the tome. I don't mean this as an insult at all -- it's just very helpful to figure out how to weigh other people's takes.

    The problem with zombies is quite simple. Their dmg output is trash, and the mortals aren't going to do enough. 40, if they all can hit, will do about 6 mortal wounds, and like, not much else. Their dmg is actually quite horrible. Next, anything at all is a threat to them. If they get charged by anything, it'll annihilate them, and those 6 mortals (which is ideal) won't do enough. They can be let to activate first at very little risk. Next, their bodies is true, but doggos both have better movement, and are better at screening. When your save is - then you're taking pretty much insane dmg, and then once leadership hits, you're in for one hell of a bad time. 

    Next, to get them to be a viable threat, you need a necromancer and a foot vamp lord. You've suddenly found yourself spending 1 cp, about 250+ on heroes, and need to get off a cast. Using them for dmg isn't viable. Then I suppose you could use them for camping objectives, which they can do, and is the only role they are good at, but in this regard you're left having to pick them or wolves. Wolves offer much more utility for less. Anything that isn't helping them get mortal wounds just doesn't seem that amazing. I feel like getting a few more 0 ap attacks at 1 inch seems bleh. I'd rather have manny and beast boy looking after blood knights or in a monster mash. 

    80 zombies seems like it'd last a while, but in practicality 400 points of actual dedicated hammers will erase those 80 zombies pretty fast. Remember, you need to only kill 25 in a unit to erase the rest to morale. a 10 man blob of blood knights dishes out 28 wounds to them at -1, and 7 at 0 ap. If I split those attacks evenly between two blobs of 40, you suddenly are left with only 16-10 zombies in each blob after morale. 

     

    Also, I did edit in it's only been 8 games so far, but I've been talking with some other competitive players and more or less there was some consensus. With how things are right now, I don't think anyone's gonna have 50+ sample size or something, so again, don't take what I say as word of god. Still, I wouldn't say zombies are bad, it just seems they're not something you lean on. A single unit of 20 isn't going to be a bad thing. It's cheaper than dire wolves, and not skeletons. 

    • Like 6
  10. 18 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

    @Jaxler I'm not too surprised with your analysis (although I think that Zombies are potentially good). Still curious how many games you have played so far.

    I've been throwing around a lot of lists, but I cut zombies out rather early. Maybe they can be made good, and I'm by no means word of god, but I'd honestly suggest leaning into units that don't need support to preform. I find the best units to run are the ones for whom buffs simply make them better, instead of trying to get a meh unit to preform. 

  11. 42 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

    @Jaxler can you give us an idea of the sample size of games and what opponents you played against?

    The local meta is basically Slaves to darkness, bone reapers, Skaven, Lumineth, Tree people, cities, orks and more slaves to darkness, and some night haunt. 

    I found that death march sucked because skeletons never preformed in any job well in any game (they still broke to morale because replaced models still count for battle shock), and the wight king always got shot off or magically killed. My grave guard either never made it into a good charge, or ended up just being left fighting better, tankier units. Sitting them on objectives seemed like a real waste, especially when they kept getting leaf blow. In every match I played against, I found summonable units were left weak and each opponent had some tool to counter me. The only ok-ish game I had when using them was against nighthaunt. I also found that realistically, I'm only getting maybe 1-2 units back before the game is basically over, and even then, the only unit that does it's job well at half strength is doggos.

    zombies got deleted instantly each time after getting 20 in and doing 4 wounds. Van hel's kept getting denied.

    In every match, I found doggos were useful as objective nabbing boys, manny was good, bella was good, and vampire lord worth 14 models and 1d3+ on his spear was also good. Blood knights while not OP were able to do their job unlike all the summonable units. 

     

    I've came to this conclusion after talking with a lot of people on how to build stuff, and I'm pretty confident I'm right on the dollar. I'm just disappointed that grave guard have too many little issues to actually be worth it. I own 200 skeletons and 60 grave guard and 30 black knights. (people keep giving them to me in lots when I buy other death stuff)

     

    Also, as for sample size, I'm looking at like, 8ish games so far. 

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  12. So, I've found that most summonable units are actually pretty bad. Graveguard lack the staying power to be a good anvil for their points, and have no mobility so they're bad hammers. I've found that skelies just suck and get leaf blown, and zombies are too squishy to do anything well other than objective camp. 

     

    I also found most the support for these units is bad. Within 12 inches in rough, a lot of buffs suck outright, and don't fix problems the units have. That, or are tied to so much tax as to be useless (deathmarch). A lot of heroes are overpriced too. 

     

    Basically, you take wolves with Bella, and a pick/choose of manny, the beast, vamp lords on zombie dragon, blood knights and magic. Everything else just doesn't work. Just act like summonable units don't exist. 

     

    I found many, many minor problems that ruin a lot of other builds. Its just so many tiny restrictions that ruin things. 

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  13. My local store is running a two v two, 1k each league. I'm playing legions of nagash, and my partner is running skaven. They're bringing sniper teams and screens, and my list is grand host with 30 grave guard, 40 skellies, a necromancer and our boy kurdoss as an ally. The necromancer has +1 to death rattle attacks, and the -1 to wound aura for his trait and artifact. 

    I'm trying to judge of kurdoss worth it. For 180 points I get more CP for throwing at bringing back units, and I'm getting double the chances to steal CP. I have a 55% chance to yoink a CP a turn, and the local meta lacks many players who can generate extra cp. Still, its 180 points for what is effectively dead weight on the battlefield. I could maybe have him run duty protecting a unit of jezzails, but even that feels iffy. Also I don't know what I'd spend the extra CP on besides rerolling 1s to hit. 

    I'm also sitting on 50 points for endless spells. I want a few points set aside for a triumph. I'm considering the palllisade for keeping my necro from getting snipped, but the local meta lacks much shooting besides the rat player, who is my companion in this quest.  

     

    Also, general feedback on the list and alternative builds for 1k would be appreciated. I'm looking mostly to control the board, as the skaven player can deal with heroes and surgically remove problem pieces. 

  14. If he is running a deathstar build, you need to ask yourself a question. Can I kill it in combat on the opposing player's terms? Considering it is a deathstar list, odds are no, but if you play bone reapers you could conceivably pull it off. 

     

    So, you've accepted that you cannot kill it if it operates as a deathstar. This means you need the use the classic method to dismember a deathstar. Force units apart. Make them play the field. Keep your units spread apart so no direction is worth advancing in. He can kill stuff, that's fine, but If he kills 200 points a turn with his whole army, by the end of it you still are on the board and you could be up on points. 

    Ranged options are invaluable here, (and to a lesser extent, magic). If you can pick out valuable models his star will fall apart. 

     

    Most of all though, force him to choose between splitting up his army, or falling behind on points. From there you can pick apart his separated assets.  Of course you could always just go shooting and murder skarbrand turn one also. 

     

    Basically, whatever you do, be honest with yourself, and ask if your army can kill the desthstar head on. If not, ask yourself how to minimize it's strength (power as a group, synergy with other units, protection due to screens) and maximize its weaknesses (lack of force projection/control across a 6 foot board, reliance on other units to perform, speed hindered by screen speed, lack of protection from shooting.) 

     

    As bonereapers you can potentially take this head on. 2 catapults should kill skarbrand if they get to fire twice, and every dead thirster is a huge hole in his list. (Each one is a third of his killing power) With mortarch of the bone bulge, your guard get 3+3+6+4+ save if theyre next to a harvester, with the 4+ being unrendable, and his chaff become replacements for your bone boys. 

     

    As LoN you have access to plenty of fast objective grabbers, reusable fodder, and powerful units that can go toe to toe with isolated thirsters. Place your sites around the table so you can easily summon back boys, and so they can only ever shut down one with ease. Play map control and try to force engagements you can recover from. 

     

    Flesh eaters out do the killy monsters. A grislegore Goulking on giest goes first, hits twice, and is frankly going to murder skarbrand before he even swings. If he does, and kills the king, the kill will just fight one last time and kill the thirster. Your ghiests can out munch thirsters. 

    As night haunt you need to play the board and avoid combat. You are faster than him. Abuse this. Dreadblades are perfect for porting guys across the board to nani his poor army and force him to redirect attention, as well as for snagging objectives. If you play scorched earth and have a dreadblade or two, you auto win vs that army comp. Abuse your mobility and play object control while feeding him units you are ok with losing. Speed is your only big edge against them, use it. 

    As tomb kings, uuuuh... cry? 

     

  15. On 1/10/2020 at 6:44 AM, BoneHeart said:

    The problem is that we have the same warscrolls for both OBR and LoN. OBR, fine argument valid, but in LoN, there are not so many heavy hitters as morghast so they are definitely filling a spot, especially within GhoN where they do 4 attacks. You can also add +1 A with a vampire so thats 10 Attacks from 2 morghasts which is nice. Also ,there is no other unit in LoN which charges 3D6.

    The problem is that they're just worse grimghasts. Are you really going to invest in them when you can literally recycle grimghasts?

  16. 9 hours ago, El Syf said:

    Morghasts surely do more damage? Less attacks (if using halberds) but higher rend and damage.  In my experience rend is everything (obviously not applicable to nighthaunt) .And for me the models are nicer looking!

    If you go the extra damage mode of stalkers they get AP 2, and 2 dmg base on 5 attacks, vs ap ap 2 and 3 dmg on 3 attacks with morghasts. Now factor in that morghasts come with 2 models vs 3 on stalkers. Stalkers get 15 3s and 3s, AP-2 2dmg attacks vs 6 3s and 3s, ap-2 3dmg attacks. 

    That's 18 dmg at rend -2 3s and 3s vs 30 dmg rend -2 3s and 3s. Almost double the damage of morghasts. 

     

    Also people keep talking up tje fast morghasts, but what about the 5+ fnp one? Shouldn't that version get a buff?

  17. 7 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

    They tend to perform fine for me. I feel flying and movement is very underrated whenever I see people comparing units.

    From what I understand, they've the same movement as stalkers, with only fly vs discount fly at a lower rdp cost being their selling point. 

  18. I am frankly boggled at how GW can justify putting morghasts at 210 points. For ten less points, look at necropolis stalkers. They pack more damage (almost double as much), pack as many wounds, and can be even more survivable for less points. I don't get why GW cannot seem to get these things to be worthwhile after all these years. It's as if they have a running joke of being the canonical good looking model with bad rules. 

  19. 3 hours ago, Mr Spadge said:

    Just curious.... I'm taking this list to throne of skulls next year and wondered what issues and positives people think I'll run into with it... aiming to some decent variety:

    (Petrifex)

    Liege kavalos - general, petrifex relic

    Soulmason- spell tbc

    Soulreaper - spell tbc 

    Boneshaper - spell tbc

    20 mortek  guard - swords

    10 mortek guard - swords

    5 kavalos deathriders - spears

    4 morghast harbingers - halberds

    Gothizzar harvester 

    Catapault

     

    Soulstealer carrion  spell

     

    2000pts spot on

    Morghasts are just worse stalkers. For 10 more points you get less dmg and squishier models who are slower. Stalkers get better at charges and not dying when you need either or, unlike morghasts who have to be set at one or the other. 

     

    Make them stalkers, use those points 20 points elsewhere. Also you probably do not need the reaper, hes kinda lame tbh and doesnt do enough compared to the guy that heals or the Mason. 

    I'd drop the horses and put in more guard. Guard are just better and cheaper. I'm on the fence about the harvester. I honestly think stalkers or catapults are too good compared to it. 

     

    Also the tithe shrieker is probably the only endless spell worth taking. The carrion suffers from being used to let the wizard see things out of LOS, so you want to use it to snipe with spells, while also making it harder to cast spells. Alone it doesnt do enough dmg to be worth the debuff. 

  20. On 12/9/2019 at 8:51 AM, Sception said:

    For the mean time, the Legion rules still exist to play old deathrattle in AoS.  I still think they'll see at least one more revision going into 3rd edition, but even if they don't their rules won't be going anywhere any time soon.  I doubt they'll be rendered unplayable in AoS, certainly not before the new oldhammer is out, whatever form that takes.  Heck, *tomb kings* are still AoS legal, and viable enough that they still occasionally show in tourney results, and they got squatted years ago now.  I'd personally probably keep them to square bases, but as long as you're playing them in a context casual enough not to mind that, there shouldn't be any trouble running Legions of Nagash just as they are for years.  They maybe aren't the most competitive faction these days, but that's such a moving target that getting hung up on it is imo probably not worth the heartache.

    Tomb kings have the great benefit of being untouched and clunky enough to be essentially able to contrive up insane ****** that shouldn't work. 

     

    I for one am planning on running a 2.5k list that is 6 knights, some chariots, definitely not setra, a prince with sword of 4+ d6 mortals, and 2 bone reaper catapults because I'm running death alligeince. Toss in s standard bearer for 10 wounds returning a turn.

     

    Sniping heroes never felt so satisfying.

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