Ravinsild
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Posts posted by Ravinsild
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28 minutes ago, Neomaxim said:
I was thinking, as I continue to delve into Cities of Sigmar, that it might be a good excuse to repaint some of my Stormcast units, and give them new life. I frankly loathed trying to run Stormcast in a serious, competitive way, but feel a lot of units have meaningful potential as CoS.
Any favorites, tips, tricks, etc...? In early days testing both Knights Azyros and Incantor have proven fun. I'm thinking of seeing if Evocators on Dracolines can add anything of note, though I suspect supported Demigyphs fill a similar role already as shock-cav.
3 Evocators unbuffed and unsupported save for their own warscroll drastically outperforms Demigryphs.
In fact 3 Evocator on Dracolines is so powerful it competes about on par across the board with 6 Demigryph Knights w/ Lances and Halberds as well as 6 Vanguard-Palladors which are basically literally even with 6 Demigryph knights both loadouts.
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1 hour ago, Gwendar said:
Ah, I would do that but planned to take them to tournaments at some point.. though I have 2 armies I already do that for when it comes to major\ITC tournaments so.. maybe I'll strictly use this for local and have some bears 😉. Speaking of, what are you using for a Dwarf themed Hurricanum?
On the subject of Dwarf lists, I came up with this as an alternative to the Gunhauler + Endrin list:Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Leaders
Runelord (90)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Warden King (110)
Battlemage (90)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
Battleline
20 x Hammerers (280)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
30 x Arkanaut Company (270)
- 3x Light Skyhooks
Units
3 x Gyrocopters (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
I initially had FG Guard, but keeping it dwarf themed had me looking at a different screen\objective sitter. With that, my choice was honestly between 3 things:
- 20 Vulkties - Effectively 40 wounds and about as killy as Arkanauts, but no TE benefits. Same +1 to save in melee as Longbeards to sit on 4+ over a 3+, but 10 more wounds total.
- 30 Longbeards - 30 dudes sitting on a 3+ is nice, even if the damage isn't spectacular.
- 30 Arkanauts - Some ranged potential with the Skyhooks and RR BS on objectives if that's something you think is good. Damage-wise they're about on par with 20 Vulkites (~10 damage vs a 4+ save), but that's assuming you get 20 models in with melee as well.
With this we have 3 threats in the Hammerers, Irondrakes and Gyrocopters. I've also considered just dropping down to a smaller screen (IE, maybe another 10 Longbeards for 3x10) and would have 170 points to play with.. though I don't know that there is much I could consider using that on. A Gunhauler for sniping potential? I suppose it could work well if ran in conjunction with the Gyrocopters and you would have yourself a nice little Dwarved Air Force squad to boot 😉 (the more I think about it, the more I prefer it over the above.. curious on everyone's thoughts).
I am using essentially all Scibor Miniatures. I am using the actual carriage for the Celestial Hurricanum, but I am replacing the horses drawing the carriage with bears and I am replacing the humans wizards on the balcony and back with Dwarf Wizards.
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/sierpien_2010/big/war_bear_2_01.jpg
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/sierpien_2010/big/war_bear_3_01.jpg
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2018/big/dwarf_wizard_2_01.jpg
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2017/big/dwarf_wizard_01.jpg
As for the Lord-Arcanum upon Gryph Charger, he shall henceforth be: https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2018/big/dwarf_wizard_on_war_bear_01.jpg
The three (for now, possibly 6) Evocators on Dracolines shall be as follows:
The Leader: https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2016/big/dwarf_lord_on_war_bear__2_01.jpgGuy with a Granstave 1: https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2010/big/dwarf_general_on_war_bear_p_01.jpg
Guy with a Grandstave 2: https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2014/big/dwarf_on_war_bear_1_p_01.jpg
I ended up adjusting my list as follows:
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Strike of Eagles
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Battleline
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Ironbreakers (130)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
10 x Hammerers (140)
Units
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
- 2x Grandstaves
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113
In this way I can experiment with the Heraldor and simply walk up the board turn 1 or even run (and still charge w/ Evocators AND still shoot (Command Ability of TE) with Irondrakes even if it's just the 1 shot each). 7'' on 24'' distance between deployment can move in pretty deep and I don't necessarily *need* to see action turn 1 per se.
And/or I can add the 3 other Evocators at a later time and/or drop the Herald guy for a SoulScream bridge. I have a decent core and I can plug and play from here to find what works best for me.
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20 minutes ago, readercolin said:
A note - Evocators are specifically barred from casting anything except Empower, however any number of them can cast empower as many times as they would like. The exception is they can cast spells from the Lore of Invigoration, and this is specifically called out in the Stormcast FAQ. What this means for non-stormcast usage though is that they can only cast empower. That means no city spells, AND no endless spells. That being said, because of the wording on empower, they might be able to cast empower twice from a single unit if they somehow get 2 casts available.
Aether-Khemist + 10 thunderers is going to be worse than evocators, and if you were looking at that I would instead look to run more irondrakes. The only case where an argument can be made to run Thunderer's in Tempest Eye is if you have a boat to stick them on. Otherwise, 10 Irondrakes that aren't getting hurricanum/hawk eyed buffs are going to be dealing 70% of the damage that 10 thunderers are with all the buffs (and more than 10 thunderers that are out of range of the buffs), while being 90 points cheaper. However, only thunderers (and arkanaughts) can get into the boats, so if you want to run a frigate/ironclad with extra guns inside as another mobile killing force to be able hit from more angles, they make sense. Without the boat though, it is really hard to promote them.
As for other options, I do agree that evokitties are one of the killiest melee options available. However, I would like to say that you may want to consider bringing a Heraldor instead of an Arcanum. Why? The heraldor lets the kitties run and charge (say hello to a 17-22" move followed by a re-rollable 2d6 charge), and he lets them also retreat and charge as well. Since kitties do significantly more on the charge than when stuck in, having that extra mobility can be extremely helpful.
As for your city choices, realistically either will work, but I would probably look to get another mage or two in if you decide to run hallowheart, just because its only real benefit is maximizing spells. Aside from that, your list looks fine to run as either.
Thanks! Honestly I’m not too familiar with Stormcast Heroes so I was thinking I guess... in my mind the army would play as two halves?
The castle which is dropped via SoulScream Bridge and the mobile hammer/strike force that’s mostly independent. I figured a quick hero would be beneficial as an escort and provide sustain/buffs as that Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger can bring one back to 1 wound and I would have either the healing spell he’s got or emerald lifeswarm to keep the hammer in the game. I even considered a regular Ghur mage on foot for simply Wildshape to grant +2 to charge rolls but essentially have the two halves as independents as possible.
ill look into this Heraldor fella and see if I can squeeze him in one way or another.
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3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:
Evokitties look really... Stormcast if you don't proxy them though.
With an Ironclad, 11 dwarves fit just fine, it has place for 15/25. You're probably thinking of a Frigate, which is half as hard to field and has place for 10.
Yeah I was looking at the Frigate. I just don’t think Kharadron bring enough to table since I’m not wanting to run a Kharadron force but rather a strong regular Disspossessed/Duardin/Old Dwarves list with a complimentary supplement. I guess the whole point of the list is to run as many Dwarves as possible but still be effective and win and supplement with units who shore up their weaknesses and provide something they don’t innately have.... like speed. And magic.
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20 minutes ago, Gwendar said:
Worth noting that I run something similar; 20 Longbeards (sometimes 20 Guard and just 10 Longbeards) and rather than Dracolines, I use 20 Hammerers, 20 Irondrakes which are the 2 main hammers that both go across the Bridge. Hammerers get a lot of + to charge (Ghur Battlemage) and charge at whatever they want rather reliably. I also take a Gunhauler + 6 Endrinriggers which act as the highly mobile squad that are good for trash clearing or taking lightly\unguarded objectives.. the Gunhauler may even snipe a support hero or two if you're lucky.
So, essentially I'm trading your 2 hammer units for 2 1/2\3. It still has the same risk that Bridge has for everyone.. the bottom line with that scenario is that you have to just see how your opponent is deployed and whether or not you can take that T1\2 Bridge and remove enough off the board so you aren't threatened in return. Otherwise... yeah, making a castle on an objective can do it, depending on the battleplan. Anyway, works well for me, though I also despise Stormcast (even though I run an Azyros for those free RR 1's 😅) so I would never consider running Evocators anyway, despite the fact that they do 28+ damage against a 4+ all on their own without a Lord-Arcanum.My entire army is 3rd party miniatures so for my part I’d be running them as Dwarves on Bears with a RunePriest on bear. I have no love for Stormcast but I have reviewed many options overall. As I said, Demigryph Knights, Grundstok Thunderers, Gyrocoptors even, and yes Gunhaulers.
It appears to me to be a most effective hammer even dropping down to 3 in order to pick up a unit of Ironbreakers to fortify my screen and a unit of Hammerers who do about as well as the Evocators with the right love and attention
that gives me 3 deadly hammers spread out and so not all my eggs are in one basket. I suppose I shall see how this pans out for me....
my only real desire was to make a winnable army with the majority of it being actual Duardin Warscrolls even if I’m subbing every model for Dwarves including the mages.
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Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Celestial Visions
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
Battleline
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
20 x Irondrakes (300)
Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
- 4x Grandstaves
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103
So this is the list I think I finally came up with. At this point I'm wondering if I ought to stick with Tempest's Eye or possibly go Hallowheart since I've now got 3 wizard units, and apparently the Evocators themselves may take a spell from the spell lore, in which case I think I might take Eagle Strike on them to harass from ranged if needed.
I looked at possibly bringing an Aether-Khemist with 10 Grundstok Thunderers, a Freeguild General on Griffin with 6 Demi-gryph Knights, a Lord Celestant on Dracoth with 4 Fulminators, Decimators or Concussors, but by and far the most damaging thing is these Evocators on Dracolines. I considered the Lord Arcanum on Dracoline, but I think the healing spell might be more beneficial than merely +1 attack on the paws, especially since I can cast Aura of Glory WITH my Lord-Arcanum.
I feel as though the extra casters and raw power of the Evocators is a major boon over simply Demigryph Knights w/ Mounted General or Grundstok even if they'd be at -2 to hit in melee.
Turn one would be something like roll 4+ for Seerstone, roll 4+ for Adjutant. If I get extra command points, wonderful I'll probably spend one to auto-empower my Evocators, if not then I'll probably just bank it. Might need it for my Warden King's no battleshock ability. Might need it to spend on Volley Fire to re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase. Spells going off would be Aura of Glory, empowering my Evocators and the Soulscream Bridge.
Cast Soulscream Bridge and try and fit 20 Longbeards, 20 Irondrakes, a Celestial Hurricanum, a Warden King and 2 Runelord wholly within 6'' around the bridge to castle on an objective. Then use my fast moving Evocators and the Lord-Arcanum upfield to smash into enemy lines. Hopefully the objective is within range of my Irondrakes so I can also shoot, like to clear screens or destroy a clutch support hero. I coulddrop the Soulscream bridge and just run or even walk people turn one. That gets me about 120 free points, with which I'm not sure what to do. Unless I also dropped 3 Evocators. That'd leave a gap of 380 points for.... more Dwarves such as Ironbreakers for Screening or 20 hammerers for a 3rd hammer, or perhaps a Luminark of Hysh to grant all a 6+ FNP, or something else...
Pros of Tempest Eye:
- +1 to save rolls bringing my Irondrakes and Longbeards to at least a 3+ turn 1 then depends on what or may not target them to as powerful as a 2+, my heroes to a 3+ or 2+ respectively, and my Evocators to a 3+ rr1 vs shooting.
- 15'' on Evocators and Lord Arcanum turn 1
- +1 to wound rolls for my Irondrakes
- Spell to add +1 to attack rolls for melee weapons which jacks up my Evocators to absurd levels
- Adding +1 to run rolls for even greater mobility in the late game when objective snagging
- I can run and shoot with my irondrakes for 1 command point if absolutely required.
Cons of Tempest Eye:
- Only 1 Spell cast per Wizard means I must carefully consider my spells. I can't Empower my Evocators if I choose to cast Emerald Lifeswarm, Soulscream Bridge and Aura of Glory all on the same turn.
- No 5+ FNP vs magic so enemies like Nagash, Tzeentch, even Skaven could put in a lot of work turn 1 with a magical alpha strike
- The +1 to wound rolls spell effects everyone, not just ranged units, whereas the command trait will only ever work on essentially the Irondrakes and could never help the Evocators
- A lot less healing in general
Pros of Hallowheart:
- 5+ FNP vs magic (especially useful vs Tzeentch)
- 2 casts per wizard (I'd have at least 3 wizards)
- I can take mortal wounds to add to casting rolls so POSSIBLY even Tzeentch can't shut me down
- Warden of the Flame is the same as the Seerstone from TE for a 4+ gain 1 CP
- Whitefire Tome allows the bearer to have ALL of the spells which means:
- Lord-Arcanum Could cast Sear Wounds AND it's own healing spell to keep Dracolines alive, especially with that Storm Ability to revive 1 at 1 wound
- Can add +1 to wound rolls instead of using the command trait from TE
- A much more deadly magic phase
- Ability to cast Sear Wounds AND Emerald Lifeswarm to heal 2D6 Wounds overall to replace lost HP from the command ability to add to casting
- Ability to improve my screens by either granting them mortal wounds on unsaved save rolls and then revive with Emerald Lifeswarm, or grant them a 4+ FNP vs magic
- A deadlier Magic Phase able to ****** out tons of mortal wounds
Cons of Hallowheart:
- No +1 to saves turn 1 means I am squishier to alpha strike
- No +3'' to movement and no +1 to run rolls and no running+shooting means I am generally slower which can hurt on large maps with many objectives for instance Scorched Earth with 8 objectives total spread out over the whole map
- No spell for extra attacks, although it would only lower the overall damage by single digits like at max 6 or something
- No automatic +1 to wound rolls on my Irondrakes and powerful dispellers, like Khorne, other Dwarves, Tzeentch and Nagash might shut me down
- Powerful dispellers and unbinders might shut me out so I gain very little from the allegiance abilities
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Lindybeige on YouTube has many historical videos and talking about how medieval weapons function and such. Very entertaining and educational.
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6 hours ago, Kramer said:
As a dwarf player of all sorts I’d say no. That’s not true imo. Unless you also take a frigate. That movement is extremely valuable. And it’s 60 pts cheaper.
but irondrakes are easier to buff, more bodies, more shots, battleline, better save against shooting.He is advising me that it’s infeasible to send 20 Irondrakes, 10 longbeards for a screen, celestial Hurricanum and a support hero or two all over via a Soulscream Bridge and that I need to be prepared for the charge on my opponents turn as my screen will instantly die and then so will my Irondrakes.
He is saying sending just 10 Grundstok Thunderers and an AetherKhemist with a Celestial Hurricanum will be much more survivable at 4+ 2 wounds each with a -2 to be hit within 3 inches.
OTOH he runs kunnin rukk and 100 Arrowboys as well as a fully buffed Rogue Idol... and my friend plays Tzeentch (Changehost). There’s also Ogors and Skaven and Idoneth Deepkin In my local meta plus other like Sylvaneth and Ossiarch Bonereapers. Also every single one of them has shooting which does not provide any negatives to hit the Thunderers.
Edit: There’s also not really any room in the list for an Ironclad and once I finally found a way to fit it in it wasn’t worth it because it’s movement speed was halved due to having 11 Dwarves.... so I might as well continue with the SoulScream Bridge plan.
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2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:
First you need to wonder why?
In Greywater Fastness, Irondrakes are quite good. They have 3/3/-1/1 at 16", but if there are no enemies in 3", get an extra attack at 15 pts per model. They have save 4, 3 vs missile.
Thunderers have 3/4/-1/2 at 18 with rifles, and get an extra attach if enemy within 3, but they are 24 points per model. They have save 4 and 2 wounds per model.
Thunderers deal less damage per point even when equipped with special weapons, and are about as survivable. Only when the enemy is within 3 or 16-18 away, will they outgun them.
Then there's the matter of the command trait Drillmaster (reroll ones to hit) and command ability (giving +1 to hit) not working on Thunderers.
I mistyped and meant to write Tempest’s Eye.
He is advising me that it’s infeasible to send 20 Irondrakes, 10 longbeards for a screen, celestial Hurricanum and a support hero or two all over via a Soulscream Bridge and that I need to be prepared for the charge on my opponents turn as my screen will instantly die and then so will my Irondrakes.
He is saying sending just 10 Grundstok Thunderers and an AetherKhemist with a Celestial Hurricanum will be much more survivable at 4+ 2 wounds each with a -2 to be hit within 3 inches.
OTOH he runs kunnin rukk and 100 Arrowboys as well as a fully buffed Rogue Idol... and my friend plays Tzeentch (Changehost). There’s also Ogors and Skaven and Idoneth Deepkin In my local meta plus other like Sylvaneth and Ossiarch Bonereapers. Also every single one of them has shooting which does not provide any negatives to hit the Thunderers.
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So are any of the Kharadron Overlord units worth taking in TE? Someone is trying to convince me 10 Thunderers is better than 20 Irondrakes...
I think they have some merit but I’m not fully convinced
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Someone has been advising me to include about 10 Grundstok Thunderers in my Greywater Fastness list.
what’s the best loadout for these boys? 1 of each weapon they can have?
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As long as I can play what amounts to the Dwarf Slayer in Vermintide 2 I'm good
It's looking like that'll be the Doomseeker.
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15 minutes ago, TheR00zle said:
Just make sure you post pictures of said army when you’re done!
Pretty sure I plan on going for a Space Wolf Blue(Grey?) color scheme accented with white. White fur cloaks, maybe Silver or Gold trim, and just like cool light colors, whites, light blues, silvers, golds, etc. Polar bears for the Bear Cannons and Bears pulling the Celestial Hurricanum. I'm replacing the human wizards with Dwarf looking wizard/runepriests.
The only GW model for Dwarves is the Cogsmith, and that's cuz I got him in Hammerhal Warhammer Quest.
The only non-dwarf is the Lord-Ordinator.It will take some time to paint 50 Dwarves, plus about 6 leadership models plus the carriage and 6 bears...
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I've done went and done it now. Paid about $480 due to Scibor's sale to grab my planned Dwarf Army at a large discount.
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5 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:
Have you taken a look at Atlantis Miniatures? Though their armament is quite mixed, if you want to sprinkle a few in, it would work perfectly.
Yep! As far as I can tell they seem to just have a miner squad and crossbow squad though?
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Well, the first list I conceived would be rather simple:
Warden King:
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2018/big/dwarf_lord_nurgrok_01.jpg
RunePriest:
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/en_,shop.php?art=3347
Cogsmith would probably be Games Workshop.I don't know about the Lord Ordinator, might keep him Stormcast.
Hurricanum would be the carriage.
Replace the wizards on it with the following models:
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2018/big/dwarf_wizard_3_01.jpghttps://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2017/big/dwarf_wizard_01.jpg
Replace the Horses with the follow:
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/sierpien_2010/big/war_bear_3_01.jpghttps://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/sierpien_2010/big/war_bear_2_01.jpg
Longbeards become:
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2018/big/dwarves_lion_guard_04.jpgIrondrakes I'll either use GW sculpts or I'll use these:
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2015/big/dwarves_cannoneers_set_03.jpgHammerers I am also debating between official GW and/or these:
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2015/big/dwarves_iron_hammers_04.jpgAnd last but not least for the 4 Helstrom Rocket Battery I'd run these:
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2017/big/dwarven_cannon_01.jpgMy TE list is a bit more complicated to figure out.... so I kind of just like this list for now even if it's not the best. It's simple.
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5 hours ago, MarkK said:
Great thread! After getting the rulebook for Warlords of Erehwon last week, I'm tempted into starting a small force of old school Dwarfs like the below picture
Does anyone know a good source of Dwarven war machines? Can't seem to find any outside of crazy eBay prices.
Scibor Miniatures has Cannons on top of BEARS as well as Ballistae on top of Bears. I know nothing for the organ gun or the grudge thrower though
I've been looking for alternate GW sculpts for Hammerers and Irondrakes. Scibor has some, but their bears are tucked into their armor and it sort of makes them look like eggs, so if it comes down to it I'll get GW's models, but I'm open to anything that could work if anyone has suggestions.-
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trying to pick between two lists which I'll detail in a different post.
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38 minutes ago, readercolin said:
Take a look: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Ironclad-en.pdf
If you give it +1 to hit and wound (aka, hurricanum + hawk eyed) it does an average of 16-22 damage depending upon which main gun you give it. All of this on a 18 wound model with a 3+ save that can re-locate to anywhere on the map it so desires if you are looking for mobility. Additionally, if you so desired you could stuff it full of Grundstock Thunderers to add extra firepower (though then you need 6 non-KO units in your army) to get a gun platform that can be dealing ~40 damage and able to re-locate to anywhere it wants to on the board. It would only cost... 870 points for it...
Is it actually better than fulminators... probably not. Is it a fun "monster" unit - yup. Is it a monster to paint? Oh dear lord, I almost regret getting it - when even the instructions are recommending subassemblies for painting, you know you are in for a "fun" time.
More to the point though, the problem that Dwarfs have is that they are slow. Yes, they move almost as fast as Ironjaws do, but Ironjaws have tricks that allow them to move in the hero phase, get massive charge bonuses, and potentially charge 3d6 if they so want. However, the biggest thing to help the dwarfs in mobility is magic. Soulscream bridge can move them 24" forwards, and doesn't even count as a move. Cogs + Wildform + musician can give them +5" to their charge. But, doing this, the Dwarfs naturally want to form a deathstar. Yeah, when you put 1500 points of dwarfs and wizards in 1 spot, it is going to absolutely murder whatever comes near them. However, AoS is an objective game, and some battleplans help the deathstar, while others punish it pretty badly. So what you need is stuff that can hold the objectives while the deathstar deals with the opposing army.
While a unit of fast movers to back them up is one way to support as the dwarves (also, if you are looking at fast movers, I HIGHLY recommend looking at literally everything else before you look at the Drakespawn Knights), what you really need is something that helps them on the objective game. That can be cavalry, as cav moves fast and can usually (except drakespawn knights) take lightly held objectives, or otherwise hold down the fort, don't limit yourself to looking at JUST cavalry. Gryocopters are decent options, shadow warriors are great as they don't have to commit right away and can just hop down on objectives, Scourgerunner Chariots are pretty decent and have huge base sizes to act as roadblocks as well. You can also look to the Kharadron Overlords, as all their boats get "fly high", which basically just lets them teleport anywhere on the battlefield following normal deep strike rules - but they can do that from on the table. Or you can just look to bring some chaff that is ok standing back and is just there for screening and objective holding. A great example here is Freeguild Guard - at 80 points, they can have a 10 man unit with a 4+ save, and for 500 points you can afford 6 of those units if you felt you needed that many. Another one is to look at bringing a pack of Aetherwings from the stormcast - they are fast fliers that can just sit around and be annoyances - but at 50 points a pop, they are CHEAP.
Yeah that boat is huge and looks pretty tough to paint and build LOL! I kind of struggle with big projects like that so I figured the biggest centerpiece would be the Hurricanum.
I think Demigryph Knights look really strong (I did the maths and even with 0 support 6 can put a hurt on something), 4 Fulminators can crush things. I don’t really like the feel or Aesthetic of KO which is kind of why I forgot they existed.
Things I had been looking at were sparse human supplements but converted to be dwarves, Stormcast Eternals, Fyreslayers (because I love the old Slayers modes), and that’s kind of all I had been perusing as far as Dispossessed supplements.
I had very strong considered 6 Gyrocoptors in 2 teams of 3 for objective getting in addition to screen clearing.
I think I’d been looking at Calvary because Scribor Miniatures has dwarves mounted on both rams and bears that I think is ultra cool and I might have been looking for any excuse to use them.
As far as back line MSU objective grabbers I had considered just plain old Ironbreakers as they won’t totally fold should a unit be sent to contest, in addition to even doubling down on my “shield wall” front line protection and getting the Stormcast Eternal with the +1 to save rolls lantern and either Liberators or Sequitors (re-roll all saves) and plant them out front for a super beefy wall that would take serious commitment to chew through. I even considered possibly bringing the flying lantern guy with the Fulminators to at least let them re-roll 1’s to hit for a modicum of support, or even the Demigryph Knights.
Id still like to pursue an Artillery Greywater Fastness list if for nothing but the sheer uniqueness of it, but I think an alternate Tempest Eye list would suit me well. I had considered Hallowheart but finding the room to bring more wizards just to make anything out of its traits was too difficult.
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9 minutes ago, readercolin said:
Changes I would make here:
I would split the longbeards into 2 screens of 10. You already aren't winning wars on drops, and they don't get any bonuses from unit size, while 2 units of 10 gives you better screening potential. Alternatively, keep them as a squad of 20 and make them your Honored Retinue.
I would make the Runelord the general. With hawk-eyed, he wants to stay near the irondrakes, while the warden king wants to stick closer to the hammerers.
Lastly, I'm not entirely sold on the Fulminators. I have a squad of 4 myself that I've been testing out (though in the living city so they can come on, shoot, and then move up for the charge), and I've been a little underwhelmed by them. Feel free to try them out and see how that works out for you. That being said, if you are going tempest eye... why not bring some Kharadron Overlords? An ironclad backed up by the hurricanum could be hilarious.
Aside from those relatively minor changes though, it looks like a solid place to start with a dwarven list.
1) That makes sense, I'm used to about 30 Ardboyz of Screening split into 2 sets of 15, so 2 sets of 10 Longbears feels right. I also prefer MSU because moving too many models at once annoys me and I'm a slow painter, so I like to keep as tight a list as possible.
2) That makes sense. Runelord General does complement being stationary well. I figured I'd maybe be castling and planting my Warden King for battleshock immunity? IDK
3) Yeah I don't even know tbh. I was just looking at quick moving hard hitting Calvary and checked out Gyrocoptors, Demi-Gryph Knights, Cold-One Knights and Fuliminators so I'm not super attached to them or anything. More like just picked them because I don't have any heroes fast enough to support them so I figured they ought to be a self-sustaining unit that can just hit flanks or clear screens or even just quickly snag objectives. I read Dwarves are complimented by very fast moving elements.
4) Quite literally I just don't know enough about Kharadron Overlords to have remember them lol. I don't know what's good or bad or what anything does with them.
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3 hours ago, readercolin said:
I am counting the cogsmith and the battalion in with the price of your rockets. 1 turn of shooting twice is... not really worth it in my opinion. And the benefit of the cogsmith (your artillery gets to re-roll 1's to hit) is... already gotten if you are running drillmaster.
Go ahead and use your AOS math tool (I like using this one: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/) and break up what is doing what damage. Yes, any enemy within 16" will be taking about 50 wounds between all your guns. But where is the damage coming from? And how resilient are your threats?
~27 damage is coming from your 20 irondrakes. 24 is coming from your rocket batteries turn 1. The rest is coming from potshots from other units. However, what happens if someone can snipe that cogsmith? He's a 5 wound model with a 5+ save. You lose your RR1's on your irondrakes, which drops you down to ~23 damage, which hurts a little but isn't a major blow to the unit. But now your rockets go from ~24 damage to ~10. Ouch.
What I recommend you do is take a look and compile a quick list of what armies you regularly play against. What are their threats? What can they do? Then, try to build an army that, on paper at least, counters that. You were already trying to do that by focusing on how much you can blow up turn 1 with your artillery + irondrakes. But then ask yourself - what if they go first. Can you still pull off your game plan? What can their army do to ruin your game plan in a single turn before you get to do anything? And then, if they let you go first, can you do enough damage to make them struggle if they get a double turn?
Don't plan past turn 1/2, because each game is going to vary depending upon mission, dice rolls, luck, etc.
But this is why I am not a huge fan of the artillery battalion. Yes, it can do a good bit of damage turn 1 if you get to unleash it on your opponent. However, you are paying 180 points for the battalion + cogsmith, and the weak link here is that cogsmith - if he dies, you just wasted all of those points, and lose a major portion of your gameplan. If you are going to be facing down something that can't deal with him (Ironjaws, Slaves to Darkness, Khorne, etc.) then it is a great investment and will allow you to take out centerpiece units/models with ease. If you face something that can deal with him (anything with halfway decent shooting, or a strong magic phase that can reach him), then it is a waste of points. That is too swingy for me to want to rely on, when there are other more consistent threats that you can use.
Luckily I have a lot of practice screening against pretty potent shooting (Tzeentch Changehost can teleport those Flamers anywhere without a roll or anything), and I've learned to screen out my best stuff more than 18'' by surround them with a huge wall of ArdBoyz that inevitably get shot instead.
I think the Lord of Change's magic and the Flamers of Tzeentch are the BIGGEST threat in the Changehost army, and they each have an 18'' range (Further than my Irondrakes, but much less than 39'' of Artillery).
Bonesplittaz my friend typically tries to clear screens with Arrowboys, but they've got an 18'' range so won't be clearing on turn 1 more than likely. He likes to clear screens with his Arrowboys to make room to hit stuff with the Rogue Idol fully buffed. I think even going second he hasn't really got anything that can touch my Artillery, but I could snipe his Wardokks and Wurgog Prophets well enough to cripple any army synergy.Against Ogors they've got some shooting too, but it's pretty bad and never seems to actually hit. Their main threat is how tanky they are and how hard they hit up close, but naturally deposing leaders makes things start to crumble....except Stonehorns. Those are so so hard to kill... Tyrants and Butchers, however, not so bad. The two Ogor players like to screen with battleshock immune Gnoblars or put them on objectives.
Sylvaneth might hard counter me though, because their trees block LOS and he likes to hide in trees. Granted he can't reach me with his stuff being about 18'', but he can spam trees on the objectives and hide in the trees and make me have to charge into the trees and I don't think 1 unit of Hammerers can carry a game like that and the Artillery is basically useless and so is the Irondrakes.
I've got a lot of Chaos players in my group, at least 2 Khorne players, 1 Slaanesh player, 1 Tzeentch player and Tzeentch is the most threatening to my Orruk Warclans for sure. There's also 2 Nurgle players, but one seems to be going into Skaven + Nurgle and the other just runs normal nurgle. I know they've run the 3 Greater Unclean ones with the casting list before, and one has at least 40 plague monks. Aside from that it's been awhile since I've played them.
We do have Ossiarch Bonereapers player but I haven't had the (mis?)fortune of playing him yet, although I've heard nasty things about how OP they are.
I also regularly spar against an Idoneth Deepkin player who can guarantee fighting Turn 3, and move something like 27 inches Turn 2 with being able to add 3 to movement (moving I think 17) adding maybe +1 to run and running, or maybe he auto gets 6's to run or something, then can charge. Massive threat range turn 1, but turn 1 nothing really except positioning. Still, Eels are terrifying. -
3 hours ago, readercolin said:
I am counting the cogsmith and the battalion in with the price of your rockets. 1 turn of shooting twice is... not really worth it in my opinion. And the benefit of the cogsmith (your artillery gets to re-roll 1's to hit) is... already gotten if you are running drillmaster.
Go ahead and use your AOS math tool (I like using this one: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/) and break up what is doing what damage. Yes, any enemy within 16" will be taking about 50 wounds between all your guns. But where is the damage coming from? And how resilient are your threats?
~27 damage is coming from your 20 irondrakes. 24 is coming from your rocket batteries turn 1. The rest is coming from potshots from other units. However, what happens if someone can snipe that cogsmith? He's a 5 wound model with a 5+ save. You lose your RR1's on your irondrakes, which drops you down to ~23 damage, which hurts a little but isn't a major blow to the unit. But now your rockets go from ~24 damage to ~10. Ouch.
What I recommend you do is take a look and compile a quick list of what armies you regularly play against. What are their threats? What can they do? Then, try to build an army that, on paper at least, counters that. You were already trying to do that by focusing on how much you can blow up turn 1 with your artillery + irondrakes. But then ask yourself - what if they go first. Can you still pull off your game plan? What can their army do to ruin your game plan in a single turn before you get to do anything? And then, if they let you go first, can you do enough damage to make them struggle if they get a double turn?
Don't plan past turn 1/2, because each game is going to vary depending upon mission, dice rolls, luck, etc.
But this is why I am not a huge fan of the artillery battalion. Yes, it can do a good bit of damage turn 1 if you get to unleash it on your opponent. However, you are paying 180 points for the battalion + cogsmith, and the weak link here is that cogsmith - if he dies, you just wasted all of those points, and lose a major portion of your gameplan. If you are going to be facing down something that can't deal with him (Ironjaws, Slaves to Darkness, Khorne, etc.) then it is a great investment and will allow you to take out centerpiece units/models with ease. If you face something that can deal with him (anything with halfway decent shooting, or a strong magic phase that can reach him), then it is a waste of points. That is too swingy for me to want to rely on, when there are other more consistent threats that you can use.
So I guess change the city, and run something more akin to this?
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
Battleline
20 x Longbeards (220)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
20 x Irondrakes (300)
20 x Hammerers (280)
Units
4 x Fulminators (480)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Where I could replace the Fulminators with say, Demi-Gryph Knights or Gyrocoptors for an element of fast support much like Gore-Gruntas, which hit super hard and clear screen or outright destroy key pieces? -
1 hour ago, readercolin said:
The general dwarf playstyle is to put heavily armored units in front of their opponents and dare them to try to break through, and then put a solid threat behind that wall to punish them if they are foolish enough to do so.
Frequently the way this plays out is to put a line of longbeards down with irondrakes behind. The longbeards (with shields) form a solid wall with a 3+ save, and the irondrakes behind benefit from re-roll 1's to wound. That being said, if you want to make that threat be a block of hammerers, that is definitely a valid threat as well. Instead of longbeards, you can run ironbreakers instead, but most people don't think that the extra attack of the ironbreakers over the longbeards make them worth running when they are acting as nothing more than a screen or an anvil.
As for what cities best support this?
Greywater is fine if you want to bring a wing or two of gryocopters, as the rest of the line can sometimes struggle with massed hordes. Bringing 2 rocket batteries isn't a terrible idea either as that gives you a unit that can snipe out small hero's, since a pair of them will do an average of 6 damage to a 5+ save (assuming that they have a +1 to hit and re-roll 1's from somewhere). Keep in mind - 2 rocket batteries at 260 points is a LOT easier to fit into your army than trying to fit 700 points of them in, and 2 of them provide a valid use case rather than trying to make them a main damage dealer like they would have to be if you brought 4 + battalion.
Tempest Eye and Hallowheart are generally the best cities for the more traditional dwarf playstyle of sticking irondrakes behind longbeards though. Tempest Eye gives you extra speed as a backup plan in case you can't get your bridge off, while between a hurricanum and hawk eyed you can get them to a 2+/2+ profile, re-rolling 1's to hit from a command point and re-rolling 1's to wound from the longbeards (note, this means that every 10 drakes will put out ~20 damage on average, and keep in mind that the rend buff from the runelords stacks, so that can be at a -3 rend pretty easily). Hallowheart can do this very similarly, but requires a spell for the +1 to wound, but in exchange can get spells off MUCH easier.
After Tempest Eye and Hallowheart, Living City is probably the third best choice, as it gives you a way to get your drakes in range without needing a bridge. Once they are on the battlefield though, living city becomes significantly worse, as none of its other bonuses really help, and you are still stuck with slow dwarfs.
If you are more interested in a Melee heavy dwarf playstyle, then Tempest Eye and Hammerhall are the top 2 choices. Tempest Eye for the extra movement bonuses, and Hammerhall because of the ability to pile in and attack twice if you can get into enemy territory. Hallowheart also works ok if you are trying to do a bridge+charge (9" away, get a +1 to charge from musician, can get another +2 from a battlemage, and maybe another +2 from cogs). And lastly Living city works ok if you are willing to bring the Cogs.
4 Rocket Batteries is only 520 points though which is roughly 1/4th of my army, still a lot, but less than 700. Unless you mean 520 + 120 for the battalion and then +60 for the Cogsmith? I'd been looking at Gyrocoptors though because they actually go fast, they super cheap (80 points!!) and have nice shooting and the bombing ability. So maybe drop 2 Rocket Batteries for 2 Gyrocoptors (or 1 unit of 2?) if I want to stay Greywater, or take the whole thing down (Battalion, Rocket Batteries, etc..) and go Tempest Eye?
I was actually interesting in martial + ranged and I genuinely thought Artillery was more of a threat than it apparently is. I had used the AOS math tool to figure any enemy within 16'' would be taking about 50 wounds (4+ save) between my Artillery and my Irondrakes (and the Ironbreaker pistol and bomb...and cogsmith rifle, etc...)
I really thought a rock solid shield wall (Ironbreakers maybe even buffed with Ancestral Shields and Mystic Shield) covering a battery of artillery and Irondrakes could pretty much tear most things apart.
Right now I play Orruk Warclans too so you say things are expensive that to me are quite cheap, haha. I'm used to small armies with a big punch (Fully buffed Gore-Gruntas can wipe almost anything in 1 go). The most cheap thing we have is 110 points so i saw people calling a Warden King expensive and I was like ??? he's dirt cheap and everything else is about the same or cheaper! There's no Megaboss on Maw-Krusha centerpiece hogging 460 points, look at all these free points!! lolHowever I notice my Orruk Warclans lose to Tzeentch and Bonereapers and many armies pretty badly as I run them pure Ironjawz. I do want to try BIG WAAAGH for the 6+ FNP, but the Runelord prayer attracted me to them, and Ironbreakers with a bit of help can be as tough as ArdBoyz and a bit killier to boot!
Then of course Ironjawz has 0 ranged threats (1 shooting attack from maw-krusha, and I don't run big waaagh and don't have any arrow boyz and Orruk Warclans don't have artillery anyway) so I was like....if I can have just as killy Ironbreakers as ArdBoyz, and Hammerers are essentially as powerful as Gore-Gruntas....then put a ton of shooting overtop of that! I can maybe shoot a Lord of Change before he does that Infernal Gateway spell and deletes a ton of my units...or really blow up his screen of pink horrors to open the way for my Hammerers to actually put a dent on the LOC from AFAR (Artillery, Irondrakes) so by the time they get there it's not 40+ wounds of constantly regenerating bubble gum all shooting a ****** ton
Not to mention how tough Ogor Mawtribes are, especially a Stonehorn! My 6 fully buffed Gore-Gruntas put like 2 wounds through on a Stonehorn guy and he just destroyed them the next turn. Well maybe with Dwarves I could shoot it and force it to charge my shieldwall who can hopefully not all completely die and keep shooting it and then fight it. I feel pretty hamstrung by lack of options in my Orruk Warclans, so I was really attracted to Dwarves because they have really good shooting, and COS can bring Stormcast Eternals whose artillery I knew was good, COS had artillery, amazing dwarf shooting and also apparently a ton of magic so I could participate in all 3 phases of the game instead of essentially putting all my eggs in 1 fight phase basket that's withered away by enemy magic and shooting and loses to attrition pretty bad.
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8 hours ago, readercolin said:
While sniping key hero's is nice, or taking out key support pieces, this can just as effectively be done by infantry and the Soulscream Bridge. For a turn 1 threat that can apply constant pressure and must be dealt with, this can also be done with infantry weapons and the soulscream bridge. These are probably some of the big reasons why artillery isn't used much. Also, for the Stormcast Ballista's, while they are nice, without the ability to deploy in Azur it is much more difficult to make use of their rapid fire ability, AND if you wanted to bring 4 of them you would have to bring 12 other non-stormcast units, both of which make them less than ideal for a Cities of Sigmar army.
In my opinion, there are 3 things that are attractive for a Greywater Fastness army.
The first is Gyrocopters. Steam guns benefit from the +3" range, which means you have 11" range steam guns, which make it much easier for a few of them to go out and utterly decimate hordes. Also on that front, each shot from the steam gun has a 1/3 chance of hitting, which means a squad of 3 on average will delete a horde of 1 wound models with a 6+ save.
The second is handgunners. With a freeguild general around, handgunners can already be hitting on a 2+/2+. Additionally, long rifles can hit out to 30". With drillmaster, you can put a freeguild general near a squad of handgunners for a 2+rr1/2+/-1/1 damage profile, which is a surprisingly large amount of damage. Additionally, with long rifles ignoring look out sir, you get models that are pretty good at sniping small support hero's too. While is is possible to get this effect elsewhere, it usually costs a CP to get RR1 to hit, while drillmaster will allow you to easily effect several squads of handgunners at once if you so desire.
The last is Steam Tanks. Now, lets be clear here, steam tanks are objectively bad. Greywater Fastness doesn't do anywhere NEAR enough buffing to make them actually good. However, if you want to run a steam tank army, I would totally make it a greywater fastness one, because a greywater steam tank is still a lot better than a non-greywater one.
If you aren't taking advantage of one of those 3 things, you will probably find other cities work better than greywater fastness. If you are in love with the city and want to run it anyways, go for it, its your army. But they were REAAAAALY cautious when they gave greywater its bonuses, and it shows.
So you would recommend more infantry, a soul-scream bridge and dumping Artillery in order to pick up Gyrocoptors?
Or rather, I suppose, what's the best city to support an all-dwarf army? I was going to swap out the crew on the helstrom batteries and the human wizards to be dwarves as it were, and I'm really trying to play essentially a dispossessed army, either that or chaos dwarves (for the artillery and shooting [fireglaives] with a bit of punch [dragon ogors]).
Again, having not played Dwarves, I thought their playstyle was to hit them from really far away to make them come to you (Artillery), then hit them in the mid-range (Irondrakes) even worse, bubble up with a shield wall of Ironbreakers to absorb charges and the like, then swing back with Hammerers and crush their nasty charge unit (like for instance a 6 block of Gore-Gruntas, or 40 plague rats, or an Idol of Gorkamorka).
It's looking like that'll be the Doomseeker. 
Best adopted Stormcast units?
in Cities of Sigmar
Posted
So here’s a chart comparing the Warscroll self contained with no buffs save what is on the Warscroll itself.
3 Evocators (260 pts) vs
6 Demigryph Knights with both loadouts (360 pts)
Vs Vanguard-Palladors with both load outs (360 pts)
This assumes a charge in all cases seeing what would happen if I played them aggressively like Gore-Gruntas and just shot them ahead of my army.
So then I was like okay basically the same across the board adding in manually about 3 mortal wounds from the Celestial Lightning Arc
So then I was like well how do 3 Evocators (260) fare against 4 of all the Drake riders dudes (Concussors, Decimators, Fulminators and Tempestors)
260 (3 Evocators) vs 380 (Demigryph and Palladors) vs about (Decimators and Tempestors) 400 to (Fulminators and Concussors) 480 points
So then I was like ****** it it takes basically double unit size to really compete with Evocators so what if I went the whole hog and spend 520 points on 6 Evocators on Dracolines and they ****** on everybody