Satyrical Sophist
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Posts posted by Satyrical Sophist
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3 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:
Quite interesting article. Turns out there's even more unexplored potential in the BT that we haven't talked about.
https://plasticcraic.blog/2023/09/18/cities-of-sigmar-crunching-the-rules/Too bad the article doesn't go into some of our things (Vindicarum/Cavaliers/Corsairs) but there's some real original stuff in here. My favourite is Steelhelm blocks in Hammerhal Ghyra with the brazier of holy flame + deliver rousing speech, it sounds really viable now ! Would you paint 60+ Steelhelms for it though...
Interesting article. I think he might unfortunately be wrong with the interaction between the aelf command trait and the fleet master one. When you are triggering an effect on a role I think the player rolling the dice picks which effect, so the enemy chooses between 1 MW (command trait) or 2 MW (fleet masters 1 to hit), and can pick the single mortal wound rather than the 2.
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2 hours ago, Beliman said:
Not sure if it's overpower.
Thunderers without the option to Fly High and the Khemist/Admiral buff are not a good shooting unit. It's all about that 4+ to shoot again (with AoA or we are going to shoot at 4+ to hit) that will make them really good with Special Weapons.
So, two options: if we don't hit that 4+, we are not going to do any damage. If we succeed with that 4+, our thunderers be toxic for the game.
Rng will decide for you how good this army will be.
What's stopping you buffing the thunderers with Chemists or admirals? You can only bring one unit with each Hauler but transporting a hero with one and a big unit with another seems possible.
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1 hour ago, Snarff said:
What's the policy on Harbingers spoilers now? Are they still to be avoided or can we talk about the contents of that book openly now?
There is a lore spoiler thread I think?
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6 minutes ago, Doko said:
even if we get the win rate of woehammer as you said,idoneth have 48 win rate and fyreslayers also have 48 win rate.
idoneths got reduction in points across the board and even a buff in rules while fyreslayers got 0,0000 buffs.
so dont make sense from win rate or tournaments wins point of view
Their own numbers have fyreslayers outperforming Idoneth, so that's what they buffed. It makes perfect sense for them. You can argue that their own numbers might not be as accurate as woehammers, but those are the numbers that they are going to use, it doesn't make no sense.
My understanding is that GW metawatch uses more small tournaments than Woehammer or Honest Wargamer, with more of a casual focus. I can definitely see something like Fyreslayers doing better in casual games than Deepkin.
Edit: was typing while request to move was posted, my apologies. One thing that is confusing me rumours wise is just what is happening with warcry. It's been a few months since we saw the Kruleboys warband, and we have now seen a total of 4 warbands spoiled with nothing out in what feels like ages.
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13 minutes ago, Chikout said:
Why are you using this data? It says July at the top of the page and it lists number of wins not percentage of wins. The faction with the most 5-0s is not necessarily the best faction. According to Woehammer who seem to have the most up to date stats, Khorne are currently at a perfectly reasonable 52% Win rate. That's pretty close to perfect. Soulblight are on their second round of nerds after round one didn't do enough which is probably why we are seeing a bigger change this time. OBR have seen their strongest build hit but we'll have to see how that turns out.
Generally I think this is a solid update. It hits some shenanigans like the incarnate and teleporting blizzards but that might not prove to be enough.
The most common complaint I'm seeing is that Seraphon escaped without any changes though that seems to be more of an NPE problem than a power problem.
Doko has strong feelings about data and their own feelings on which data to use. That data also doesn't seem to include how many players of each faction are playing. Lumineth is only down there for 3 5-0 and 4 4-1 and is put mid tables. If there were only 7 lumineth players that would be an 83% win rate. Equally if there are 100 lumineth players who won no other games then it's a 6% winrate. We just don't have any information. If you want to use 5-0/4-1 you need to have information about faction play rates.
I was surprised how much seraphon dodged in this update, but I think a decent part of that was that they nerfed the rupture incarnate combo that Seraphon and Tzeench were using, so I kind of get being cautious.
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10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:
So due to one Nagash combo and someone who spikes Spirit Gale everything had to be kicked into the dust. I hate it.
The VloZD was questionable at his first point value, only LoB abused it a lot. Awesome he‘s now even worse fir every other faction.
the same goes for zombies - simply prohibit two reinforcements.
It‘s such a big pile of bs, every single change.
I don’t care about too tables or netlisters I care due to this nonsense making my fun games way less enjoyable.
What is your fun list Jack? How many points did you go up?
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37 minutes ago, Doko said:
i think who makes the balance havent idea about the meta.
this is the actual data of the tournaments with 5 rounds since this gheneral handbook.
so we have as the top to vampires and bonereapers with same stats,what make gw? huge nerfs to vampired with across the board increases in almost entire book and some jokes as 30+ to zombis,delete one spell doing it useless,also kill the legion of nigth teleport blizarf, but meanwhile bonereapers get more buffs than nerfs in points and only a direct nerf to one unit.
in general bonerepeaers get a sligth nerf while vampires have been deleted.
then we have khorne in 3th position and get 0! nerfs but many indirect buffs.
other top 10 armys as slaves or nurgles get many buffs.
then we have the botton armys: fyreslayers who are the botton get 0 buffs,then orcs also get 0 buffs.
this balance dont make any sense,only make bigger the gap betwen the top armys and botton,the top got buffed and only vampires have been deleted while the botton got 0 buffs and the middle tier as idoneths got huge buffs
I don't think there is anyway I'd put Nurgle as top tier right now, and the lists that are performing well are mostly very blightlord based, opening up other options is good. Your table there doesn't seem much like there like other meta results based lists I've seen and looks very focused only on 5-0 and 4-1..that's not all GW (and a lot of players) care about. An army that always goes 3-2 won't win any tournaments but isn't ideal to have with a 60% win rate.
1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:Wow, just wow.
They changed the most fun spell in the game to be utter rubbish. (Spiritgale)
I hate such no sensical updates.
How about they stop making the army worse for everyone so some too tables can level the win rate, and instead change the Subfactions Abilities which are problematic. This update really ruined my evening, it’s absurd.
My understanding is that at least half of the vampire subfactions are doing well, with quite different builds? Seems like vampires might just be overall a bit too good, in which case a 10 to 15% point bump seems reasonable. I hope they don't plummet down the table rankings, but I don't think they will. One problem with spirit gale is just that it effects armies so wildly differently. Some armies are barely effected, other armies are going to be messed up by it. It's also very interactive.
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25 minutes ago, Daylight Sneak said:
I don't quite understand the adamant obsession with racial unifications across the board, especially when they make little sense apart from maybe cutting down the amount of battletomes. In my opinion that is just ruination of identity for the entire premise of the setting from the GA: Order's point of view. There was talk about Duardin unification and souping a some years ago and now it's the same about the Aelves. To me it looks more or less like people just can't accept that Age of Sigmar isn't Warhammer Fantasy anymore.
I think some of it is that it can turn limited factions into more indepth factions.
Take Gloomspite Gits. If you want to go trog heavy you can, and there are rewards, but if you end up getting bored of just trolls you can branch out, get some squigs, or goblins or spiders. You don't need to start w completely new army. I suspect a lot of primarily trog players wouldn't have started if they knew the army could only ever be trogs.
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5 minutes ago, Matrindur said:
I felt the same way about the endless spells. In the first half every faction got theirs but in the latter half that kinda fell off. I wonder if GW started designing the Incarnates at that time and because the Endless spells didn't go as they wanted they also stopped designing more Incarnates?
They've been pretty actively balancing and changing the endless spells. I think they might have just decided that they had enough? I think the incarnate turns out to be too powerful for what they were intending and it made them cautious about new ones.
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4 hours ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:
I had been coming closer and closer to making Big Waaagh the next army I assemble, but I think that's probably dead now, sadly. And ironically enough, the super-cool revamped Ironjawz are what killed it. I was already having a ton of trouble fitting lists together before them, and even if I don't take any of the new stuff, the change to Ardboyz removes any chance of cheap battleline. Going from an 80 point minimum in old Ardboyz to 140 point minimum with Brutes is pretty rough. Some of this is self-inflicted, because I want to include a Maw-Krusha in the list just for the model. Still it's disheartening.
I might be wrong, but I think one unit of gutrippas, 1 unit of hob grots and a unit of brutes is the cheapest. Works out as 370, or effectively 123.3 per battle line choice. I don't know if the 50 points you save is worth it, but if it was tight.
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2 hours ago, Gorthor21 said:
I really like this. They used big portable shields with their firearms to protect fro arrows so I could see this being an awesome looking unit if you manage to get them to base up right. Have they changed the rules about basing and I didn’t know?
I think the fancy shield is called a Pavise, which I think is neat.
The rule for basing is (as far as I can remember) that it should be the same size as the bases that come in the box. This one is a bit of a cluster frag honestly since they've changed base size with the same models sometimes. Nurgle piper came on a 40 but nurgle base size list says 32. I think the Warden King used be on a 25 and is now on a 32 etc.
You should try and do this if you can, since base size can make quite a difference (25s being able to fight in 2 ranks for 1" range, or 3 ranks for 2"), and has a big influence on how much space the unit as a whole takes up, a little under 60% more space for a unit on 32s than 25s. It also makes a massive difference for coherency.
Particularly if you are proxying, matching base size is a big one.
Those Fusiliers look awesome Myrdin, hope you find out soon! From looking at Fusiliers I think they are on 32s, since they are visually distinct enough from the human characters that I don't think they'll feel the need to put them on 28s. I've not had a go working out from the photographs though.
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14 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:
Wait where does that "FS mini wave rumour" comes from ? Kurnothi we know because Whitefang, but FS ? Apart from vague Whitefang reacts that FS where somewhere in the pipeline. Elarin or WF said some things about FS recently that I don't know about ?
I thought it was the harbinger thing, the grimhold exile being one of them. The other reason is that FS are one of the 1st edition mini factions, and with FEC getting some kind of update, and rumours of Slyvaneth getting something as well.
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9 hours ago, Doko said:
i am not a fan of the female models of gw(they are more men than girl) and so i dont like these two female dwarfs.
but the minidroth is cute and the male models without the ass visible finally are great.
i hope they are playable
I think it's really good that female dwarfs look muscular and burly, I really don't like the world of warcraft approach where the males of a each species look distinct and the female version are just the human female with a slight colour change and maybe horns or cloven feet.
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3 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:
(Stolen meme)
Warcry bands have a reasonably good rate of playability. The true meme might be the pain of removing adorable pets. I fear running the new cities warband because you often will want to pull doggos first.
I think a lot of the non chaos warbands are actually pretty playable, and some of the chaos ones are really good, there are just so many that having them all be good is a pipe dream. Thinking about it the only whiff I can think of outside of slaves to darkness is the Tzeench one, which has such strong competition from horrors (for durability) and kairics for cheap battle line.
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2 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:
TRUGG IS BIG AND BRUTAL
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/lQR8doCdKS14oWPO.pdfHe's a big ol' boy. The lodestone seems WAY more consistent than I was expecting.
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5 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:
I vote for interesting proxies quite often! And the Phoenix Guard can be the Black Guard.
Working on my Dreadlord kitbash today. It'll be a Kharybdiss base, and I'm thinking like tentacular fins rather than wings. I only have 1 pair of real wings, and Cthulhu needs those. Sure, they can summon a little aether-sea like the IDK. Yeah, that's the ticket!
My 2k + of rotated Aelves is dang well gonna be in cities. I have 10 actual black guard, but 30 Phoenix Guard will be joining them. Possibly if they get removed then I'll have old school dark elf Idoneth
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27 minutes ago, Myrdin said:
And importantly: Has an inbuilt 18" aura giving charge reroll to all Ordo Serpentis units. Be it knights, Hydras or himself. Not having to spend a CP on that makes it very very nice.
The reduction of the dmg to D3 is silly though.
And yes its an ugly model in my oppinion too. But there are people who like these classic looking old miniatures so I am not gonna take it away from them. When I was still trying to build up my DoK army, I wanted a Dreadlord ally, and instead opted for that Forge World one, since I got it fairly cheap (considering regular FW prices) second hand. Warpfire Dragon or something like that. My DoK never got finished since then they re introduced BoC and CoS with proper AoS battletomes and thats where my desert themed snek girls (and the dragon) project ended.
I'm trying to decide what to use my unbuilt frostheart phoenix for. Dreadlord on dragon is one possibility.
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3 hours ago, Myrdin said:
My solution to second shooting block is via allies. 3 Starshard Balistas (Lumineth) are individually very strong, and taking multiple you are getting the 36" range buff. Combined with the reliable profile and low cost at 120 you can easily bring 3 and let them have a go at lonesome priority targets turn 1 without even needing to move. Since they dont require any buffs and even offer a single turn debuff, I believe you should be able to get your points worth back.
For those planning to run Greywater this might be a serious pick to consider since our own cannon is overpriced, short ranged and really not that impressive.
They come in a bit ahead of Cannon without All out Attack and a bit behind cannon with all out attack when you account for points.
I was considering Sevireth in Settler's Gain. He isn't super efficient, but he can do targeted mortal wounds in addition, and move ridiculously fast to threaten objectives.
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12 minutes ago, Elarin said:
16th Sept pre-order, 23th Sept release date 😁 the book, all new Orruks, Orruk Vanguard, Troggoth box and Rabble-Rowza
Right in the wallet
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3 minutes ago, Doko said:
i dont get what u mean,soceres can also buff to other diferent unit while giving the ward to blackguards and better even can even debuff enemy to give a indirect buff to non elf units where runelord only can buff dwarfs,also enemy dont know what order gonna give the sorceres where if you see a ironbreaker in a objetive together a dwarf you know that he gonna do the shieldwall.
again i dont get it,what u meaning. we are speaking about the more competitive options,whats the point in speak about how ironbreakers can be used as shield,or how a sorceress can do one spell,or the artillery can be used to shoot!?
everyone know these things,usually the point to discuss is what are the best units for each role.
also i dont get because i gonna do feel bad to persons that dont like the non optimal option,they gonna feel better spending 300€ in their non optimal units thinking that they are good and then get destroyed in every game and dont have fun?
here in my club i am asked for many players about the best unit to buy to be competitive etc and maybe i have got a habit to be too much white and black about each unit.
i myself i have used a full dispossesed army for 8 years (not in tournaments) and i never felt bad when other players said how bad were the dwarfs units so i dont get what you meaning,i think that i am doing a favour to many players that dont know the army or the units and only want spend the money in one 2k list that gonna be competitive and dont want spend this money and then end with a non competitive list(im sure of this because i got many persons asking me for this in real life and on the web)
Would you mind spending a little bit longer formatting your messages, it is pretty hard to read and parse. I understand that english isn't your first language, but all the sentences are blurring together.
I'm just talking about a book I'm quite enthusiastic about that looks like a lot of fun to play. This forum isn't relentlessly competitively focused, a fact I'm pretty happy with. I think there is a middle ground between tournament grinding meta seeking and wanting to play well.
If a very new person was getting into AoS and wanted to start CoS I would recommend the following.
- The newer units are likely to be around long term.
- Older units might stay, they might not stay.
- If you enjoy the look and want to paint older units, go ahead but be aware that they might not be around in 3 years. It helps if you give some thought to where you might play the units if they rotate out. For example, Dawn Riders in Lumineth are the same base size as Drakespawn Knights, and both are Aelf Cavalry. There are a number of places for the Dark/High Elves to go, even if another faction isn't released. Some units are going to be harder to place though. I think Drake Spawn Chariots could be rebased on 90 by 52 ovals to be used as Sharks in Deepkin.
- Getting into an army takes a long time, and metas can change famously fast. I'd be more careful about buying a lot of copies of an Old World unit more than getting a huge number of Fusiliers say, but I'd still be cautious about getting 10 units of Fusiliers.
- Some units are better overall than others. If you want to play competitively you probably want to focus primarily on the better units. Some of the better units are only better due to finite buffs though. For shooting I think the first Fusilier unit buffed by a Warforger is the best choice. After that point though if you want additional shooting (You might, you might not) then I think you are better off using a different shooting choice. Potentially that is Iron Drakes, potentially Scourge Runners. Probably not currently cannons.
- Some of the less good units may be better in some different situations. If you have a sorceress then Dreadspears suddenly have an upside over Corsairs.
- There are definitely some units that I'd struggle to see the point in using, because the alternative is TOO similiar, but better. Examples of that would be I'd struggle to ever want to run a Sorceress on Black Dragon over a Dreadlord. Similarly I don't see myself ever wanting Bleak Swords over Dreadspears. Same for Battlemage on Griffon over the Marshal version. Maybe I should look more into some of these, but from what I've seen I'd struggle to justify them.
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17 minutes ago, Doko said:
yup in fact i sent some emails to the faq team with this:
first errata is in page 143, the warscroll of the unit dwarfs hammerers dont have champion,standard bearer neither musician when they have all this in the unit,so need be fixed because its a errata
second errata in page 127 the warscroll of the freeguild marshal his shield is missing and havent stats
also page 143 the irondrakes have other errata,the gromrhill armor is missing(+1 save against shooting)
Unfortunately I think there is a good chance none of that is errata. I've had a look through the book and every time you see Hammerer's appear in the art they don't have a command squad. I think this might be a deliberate choice they made. If thats the case its a shame, but there is a sort of thematic sense to it.
I don't think the shield has rules, might just be a look thing.
As for the iron drakes defence against shooting, I think that is also an intended removal, they already have 2 different unit rules, and they've been cutting down on them.
10 minutes ago, Doko said:hnnn dont irombreakers lock you on a runelord also?(because enginer is the worst hero of entire aos and runeking dont have any use of he isnt your general)
so is the same combo, irombreakers+runelord vs blackguard+sorceres but sorceres is better than runelord by a big gap and blackguards better than ironbreakers in almost every situation also(more damage and with rend,better tankiness in our combat phase,enemy shooting and enemy magic and only worse by a small +1 save in enemy combat phase)
also the dwarf combo need one order while the elf not,and is free of choose one order while dwarf is locked to shieldwall if we are speaking about tankiness
As I said, I think black guard are probably better. They are more locked into a buffing piece than the ironbreakers though. Iron breakers can be buffed by a rune lord directly, but you could have that runelord buffing Iron Drakes instead, or buffing hammerers and hanging back close enough to the Iron breakers to still order them. The opponent doesn't know whether the runelords order is going to be shieldwall or counter charge. There are definite builds with the warden king working with hammerers as well, where he is there and can potentially order. I do agree that the cogsmith is fully underwhelming, he should definitely be cheaper, acting as a budget dwarf hero.
I think you need to stop looking at things in such a simplified top trumps, it achieves nothing and only really makes people who like the non optimal option feel bad.
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11 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
Big oof. Poor dwarfs.
I guess you can still Unleash at full strength if you are between 3" and 6" away from the charging unit, but it certainly does not make the unit easier to use.
Unleash Hell
These warriors have prepared their missile weapons so they can unleash a devastating volley at the last possible moment.You can use this command ability after an enemy unit finishes a charge move. The unit that receives the command must be within 6" of that enemy unit and more than 3" from all other enemy units. Models in the unit that receives the command that are within 6" of the target unit can shoot in that phase, but when they do so, you must subtract 1 from hit rolls for their attacks and they can only target the unit that made the charge move.Yeah, you are going to want screening units for them, which does add to the cost. One of the reasons I like corsairs is as a screen that can inflict some mortal wounds on the enemy as they go down, while also being a target to buff up with ten blades if you get an opportunity.
Ironbreakers are behind black guard in my own personal rankings, but a 3 up save shouldn't be underestimated, particularly since you can AoD and Mystic shield on top of it. 3+ being able to get to 2+ can be pretty nuts. You do have access to the -1 to be wounded prayer as well. The sorceress can also do a -1 to wound, but that works on enemy units, rather than your own and is considerably more enemy dependant.
I think direct comparisons can be a bit wrong here. Even if black guard are OVERALL better they have advantages and disadvantages and also lock you into a sorceress (who I think is a fantastic unit, don't get me wrong) if you want the ward save.
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9 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
Having a Steam Tank or two is genuinely a defensible option, but not for their ranged damage output alone. They shoot OK, though. Same for the Scourgerunner and possibly the Gyrocopters.
Everything else seems like incidental shooting, not real damage dealers. You can slap a unit of Darkshards in a list as a ranged screen that does, like, 3 damage per round. Or you can run a unit of Wildercorps Hunters just to push them onto terrain near an objective so that the opponent has to come down there to remove them. But none of the units not mentioned above have the potential to deal serious ranged damage.
In my opinion: Be happy with the good shooting you can get out of that first Fusilier unit, build the rest of the army as melee.
A trio of scourgerunner chariots is actually more damage than you might think with fleetmaster buff. This is the output for a unit of three with AoA from a fleetmaster, which is pretty close on a points base to the flaming fusiliers. I've not factored in the fleetmaster in the points efficiency though, because I think you have him primarily for Corsairs, which the scourgerunner buff being incidental.
0+ 2.74, 1+ 4.59, 2+ 6.44, 3+ 9.19, 4+ 11.93, 5+ 14.67, 6+ 15.56, 7+ 16.44.
If it happens to be vs a monster it jumps.
0+ 3.67, 1+ 6.44, 2+ 9.22, 3+ 12.89, 4+ 16.56, 5+ 20.22, 6+ 21.11, 7+ 22.00.
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1 hour ago, Myrdin said:
Reason why Irondrakes and some other stuff got fundamentally worse is very simple: Its to "gently force" the players away from these old models and subfactions. Eventually phase them out completely, but before that ensure people start using them less and less. I mean the push for HUMAN only keyworded Cities is clear to anyone is willing to look.
I`ll just repost this from my last post since now with the discussion about Irondrakes on this makes even more sense and points towards what I just said.
Look at the orders where its very obvious: The Castelite one is universal oder and the Counterfire a Human only.
That make NO SENSE!
In fact it would make perfect sense for the Castelite one to be Human specific and the Counterfire one to be universal, since both the Dark Elves and the Dwarves have plenty of shooting of their own. THAT would make all the sense in fact.
But since its not that way you can tell it was either a huge oversight (it would change the dynamic of the 2 subfacitons a lot if they could use this order) or intention to clamp down on them, and make sure people slowly phase them out. Sure it could be an oversight but I believe this is intentional. Just think about the utility of Counter Fire if it was a universal order instead of purely human one. And vice versa, the fact the Castelite one is unusable by anything other than specific human units.
Which order are you calling the Castelite one? Do you mean Advance in formation? Because plus 3 move is very useful even not getting the fortify part at the end, I think the movement boost might be even more important if you want to run a heavy dwarf base, since jumping to 7 movement is really important to them.
I might be wrong, but I think if you want to have a second castle then Iron Drakes seem like a better choice than Fusiliers, they marginally underperform non flaming weapons command trait Fusiliers when moving and massively over perform when staying still. Since you can only have one flaming weapons cast a turn, it feels like any shooting you want separate should probably be either Iron Drakes, or possibly scourgerunner chariots.
Speaking of other shooting units, the Steam Tank Commander's output isn't actually too bad, and with overload and AoA expects to do a total of 5.6 sounds to. 3+, 7.8 to a 4+, 9.9 to a 5+ and 12 .1 go a 6+, which seems like it has a very good chance of triggering suppressing fire.
18 minutes ago, Beliman said:I hope that the next Cities of Sigmar wave is focused on Duardin/Aelves units. Even ignore that Duardin/ Aelf/ Human keyword for any synergy and just focus on their organizations:
- Ironweld with Humans engineers.
- Castelite with Duardins Custodians.
- College Arcana with Aelven wizards and AoS'ied Swordmasters.
- Shaddy humans for Darkling Covens (tweak the lore a bit to make it possible).
- Pirates Humans for Order Draconis/Serpentis.
Even throw other minor races as new Cities fo Sigmar units like Half-kin™ (halflings) and Ogors (we already have one!) and re-writte racial orders to be based on this organizations (pretty sure that the Order Serpentis don't use the same methodology of training than Castelites).
I'm hoping for something like this
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AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion
in Cities of Sigmar
Posted
How many points we we looking at?