Satyrical Sophist
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Posts posted by Satyrical Sophist
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1 hour ago, Yoshiya said:
Hey all, not sure if this is the right place to ask but I reckoned if anyone can help it would be you guys.
Im looking to make a converted mixed-beast/daemon army for Slaanesh and I have what I hope will be a cool idea for some Slaanesh themed Ungors.
i need to check the size of the models to make sure they won’t be too different though so I was wondering if anyone had a size comparison picture?
if possible, a comparison picture between Ungors and ghouls would be best but otherwise it would be great to compare them to a liberator.
I'm working on converting ghouls into Ungor, I have a plan but hoping to have some built up by this weekend, been a bit busy recently.
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4 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:
No one here plays the gits because they are not up to snuff competitively, but when people were trying them out here, the moon did almost nothing most of the time. It pales in comparison to things like the flesh eater throne giving free summons or the skaven knotholes.
It's entirely possible that gits would be fine with the moon active all the time.
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17 hours ago, Sleboda said:
Well, my experience has been totally different. My regular opponent uses two every game and they (as well as fanatics) have been the MVPs each time.
As to rolling well for the moon, yeah, sure, just like any other ability. The thing is, that's all it takes. No model on the table. No positioning. No line of sight. No range. No point cost. Nothing. Just roll a die and profit.
Compare, as a simple example, to a Slaughterpriest. Got to have a model on the table. Got to get the target within range. Got to roll well (that's what they have in common) but a bad roll can kill the Slaughterpriest whereas a bad roll for the moon is just a failed attempt.
My point about the moon is not even that it's too good. It's just not fun and it cannot be countered.
You were talking about character sniping. In order to take a hit from the moon you need to roll a 1. So on average each turn a character is under the moon is 1/3 of a mortal wound. The moon is on average on the battle field for three turns. So on average they might expect to take 1 wound in the whole game from the moon... Assuming that they are chasing the moon. The moon that starts in one quarter of the board ...so positioning. Can only effect stuff in either it's quarter, or if it's in the centre of the board. Almost like a range...
I have seen games where the moon did absolutely nothing. Turn 2 rolling a 1 and it staying off the board. It's a terribly unreliable effect. There is a higher chance that the moon will have no effect than a slaughter priest will kill themselves early in the game.
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2 hours ago, Arlen Presleynn said:
What's de point of gavespawn? Create a some chaos spawns, but is that better than ambush with any unit in the battletome?? Even warherds and thundercorns(that's not my tsrget but, I want to play this sometimes.)
Why in most list of beast of chaos people play gave spawn and for my surprise, chaos lord in mantícore with nurgle mark, (or maybe was chaps sorcerer)
Thank you for answering my post.
Gavespawn is played mainly for the command ability and has a bunch of cool perks. Heroes turning into a chaos spawn when they die (usually) is handy, since they can do a bit more damage, or screen, or just block the opponent. The artifact is a powerful one, particularly on a Beastlord. He can kill a lot of the heroes in one on one combat.
Going back to the command ability, it's an impressive buff, and very easy to trigger by summoning in a spawn off the table edge, or with a hero spawn.
Edit due to accidentally submitting early ea
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6 hours ago, SwampHeart said:
Looks solid - I'm curious how well do the 10 Tzaangors usually do? I most often ran them in a big 30 block to maximize their tarpit/durable nature. But other than that I see a great MSU list with lots of small but very points efficient hammers and of course the Taurus which is effectively a must take for me.
I've run 10 man Tzaangor a fair bit. I actually like them a fair bit. Generally you get one nice damaging charge, then they are a pain to kill. It's a lot of work to chop through them all
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1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:
What I mean to say is trading Bestigors for Clanrats is a bad trade. The points trade out in my favor but that's not necessarily the best way to evaluate if the trade was effective. Because what happens afterwards is I get charged by the Plague Monks behind the Clan Rats who are more offensive than Bestigors so effectively I'm trading one of my hammers for a screen. I've tended towards using the Contorted Epitome near the Bestigors to get a double chance at causing fight last to let them at least swing before the Monks go.
I just assumed that was what the second unit of Bestigor were for :P.
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On 5/20/2019 at 7:13 PM, SwampHeart said:
Honest answer is its difficult to deal with. I've considered Ungor Raiders, especially with a pre-game move it isn't too hard to get 30 in range to shoot a hole in the screen but obviously that's a points investment. Right now my main game plan is usually putting Bestigors into the screen and understanding its a bad trade. The Bestigors will wipe out my opponent's screen, I know I'm going to get charged by Plague Monks so I atleast try to keep the Epitome near them for the chance to swing before they will before they get removed. Usually the goal against that build is to go full bore and just try to pin my opponent on his side of the table for the first two turns so I can get the upper hand on objective scoring, and then just try to keep pressure up via summoning.
Probably misreading this, but 30 Bestigor for 60 clan rats works out in your favour doesn't it? Or are you assuming you'll only get to hit 20 or 40.
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3 hours ago, Myrdin said:
I get your point but let me offer an alternative view. Centigors are the same price, and are superior in pretty much every single way, other than screening (since its 5 2W models instead of 10 1W ones). Better damage output, durability due to save, can have benefits of a command group, and most importantly is much much faster with or even without a Shaman, which does compensate a lot on the "not as good of a screen" part, since they can keep up and ahead of pretty much anything else we have. I mean there is no comparison between them and the Warhounds.
Alternatively - Chariots and Razorgors 60 and 40 pts. I use those as throw away units. Both are still better than Warhounds.
The only thing Warhnouds have going for them is the 10 model screen, but with no save, and a single wound, there ARE better ways to screen even at 80 pts, albeit a bit more finicky (Razorgors are pretty solid flank protectors, you get 3 as individual units and position them with 3" gaps, this way you can pretty much cover some odd 15" of a flank).
Dont get me wrong, I would love for them to be at least mildly useful, but there is not one, but several better units that can do just the same, though in a slightly different way. 60 pts Warhounds, I believe would draw a good bargain and make people think much harder whether to take them or not.
Oh absolutely. As I said, I don't know how you'd make them work at 2 wounds each. But at 60 points I think they'd get pretty close to auto take. I always want a shaman and a sac outlet at the herdstone. At the moment that ends up being ungors. If warhounds dropped to 60 I would definitely use them. They would basically work as a sac outlet and a turn one screen. You can daisy chain them along your front line leading to the herdstone. You have like 3 feet of screen.
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15 hours ago, Myrdin said:
I would like to see:(warhounds 60 pts pretty pleeeease).
I think at 60 points they'd be too good. I know I'd sacrifice little else. The big thing with warhounds for me is that they are the only unit of 60x35 bases with one wound. I don't know how you'd repoint them at 2 wounds each, but I think they could really do with it.
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22 hours ago, Drib said:
Is there a secret to building Bestigors? I can't get the arms to fit as they should.
They are a pain in the ass. The method I got to work was glueing the arms together at the hand/wrist joint, letting it almost dry, then pushing the arms onto the body. There should still be some flex, then you can glue the arms to the body.
19 hours ago, Killacat said:My friend is starting age of sigmar with beastmen and I was wondering if anyone could help me make a 1000 point Brayherd list for him. So far he has the start collecting box, unit of centigors, unit of bullgors, and an extra Bray-Shaman. Thanks so much for the help! Any tips and build advice is appreciated
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Well, what you have there comes to 800/820 points depending on what you build stuff as.
You have 66 wounds in those 820 points, but only 31 bodies which is pretty light. It honestly depends a bit on what you/your buddy feels like playing with.
Bray Shaman
Bray Shaman
Bestigor (Battle Line with Bray Shaman General)
Ungor (Have to run these as non-raiders to make battle line)
Centigor.
Bullgor
Ghorgon/Cygor.
The Bray Shamans are really good. I tend to only run one but mainly because I haven't painted another up. One works really well baby sitting a herdstone (which I recommend picking up), along with some ungor for sacrificing to generate summoning points. The second is a cheap hero who makes a big chunk of your army faster, and has some powerful spells.
Bestigor are just plain very good.
Ungor are a really nice fast chaff unit. As I said the first unit tends to stay with the herd stone (I usually go with a herdstone near an objective if I can), but late on the survivors can go very fast (Up to 16 on max/cp run) to screen or steal an objective.
Centigor I love. They are absurdly fast and reasonably tough.
Bullgor can definitely do work. They are very very inconsistent though. I've had them just tear through units, or whiff completely. They benefit a great deal from anything that boosts attack numbers, or increases accuracy. I think they also play well in some of the god armies, like Slaanesh or Khorne. Equipment wise I went with great axes. There are arguments for other weapon load outs though. The shield and single axe boosts the save in combat and is more reliable (3 attacks at two damage) with less rend. I'd be slightly leery about going for double axes though, since the Khorne battalion (which is very good for these guys and if you are running them in khorne you need to get) gives an easy way to get reroll 1s to hit, and if you are running them in Slaanesh there are a lot of ways to get reroll 1s as well. I'm interested in the generals handbook for these guys, because I feel they could probably use a small point drop.
I've not played with a Cygor, but I've seen them do well. The Ghorgon is basically like the Bullgor's bigger weirder brother. The last game I played with him he killed Mannfred, Mortarch of Night almost in one combat phase (finishing him off immediately afterwards), then failed to put a dent in zombies until they dragged him down. The game before that he stabbed a Bastilladon to death in one turn and held an objective for the rest of the game. The game before that he failed to hurt a unit of dryads. He is a monster and a cool unit.
As for what to do next? You have a load of choices. It also depends a bit on what you/your buddy wants to branch into. Remember that you'll be spending a long time painting stuff, and if you don't like the models, I'd advise going for something else.
The Tzaangor are an option. Tzaangor on foot are a tough unit compared to a lot of BoC stuff, and start out pretty punchy.
Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs are an absolutely brutal unit right now. They are very likely to get a price increase in the next General's handbook (Or the Tzeentch Battle Tome if that is first), but thats pretty deserved. Honestly they should be at least 160, maybe even 200. They are very good though, and can tear through anything, while also being stupidly fast (16 inch base upto 19 with bray shaman) and flying.
The Tzaangor shaman is quite pricy. He boosts the other Tzaangor, but the foot Tzaangor need it more than the discs. If you are running endless spells (Like the big bull) he also gets to cast one super powered spell a game, which is really good for forcing it through.
Skyfires I haven't played much with, though they represent some of the armies only shooting. They are apparently deceptively good in close combat, and some people have been getting good results with them. They may also be getting a points adjustment in the generals handbook.
If you want to stay pure beasts of chaos, or branch into Tzeentch then Tzaangor are a good choice.
If you want to potentially try playing a god army with BoC base then you want to avoid Tzaangor (Unless that god is Tzeentch).
In that case you still have a lot of choices.
One of the easier options would be another SC box. That'd get you another 10 ungor and Bestigor, plus another big monster. The Ungor and Bestigor would take your points up to around 1000 and add more bodies. The monster could be assembled as the other monster option, so you'd have a ghorgon and a cygor for example. You would end up with 3 bray shamans total, which might be too much, but possibly not. He is a flexible option.
There are a lot of choices in this army, and its pretty well internally balanced. If you like the model for something, you should get a use out of it.
There are only a few things to warn about.
Warhounds are a bit disappointing rules wise, and people have mixed feelings on the models. I love them and have some painted, but it wouldn't surprise me if they got a rework at some point, potentially with the new Dark oath release.
Be careful going too monster heavy. They can be very powerful, but tend to be more fragile than the same points worth of units. They also struggle to hold objectives.
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51 minutes ago, Poryague said:
Hard to say besides euphoric killers. Slaanesh does seem to have the ability to hand out reroll1 to hit. The thing is we dont know all the possible synergies. We only have a small picture.
Euphoric Killers is a pretty big deal though. And it looks like we have an easy time fulfilling depravity point requirements. With God seekers we get even faster, and can easily manage three t1 charges (if nothing else Centigor under HoS have 14 +1 + run then 2d6 +1 charge). I also want to try doombulls, since they have 8 wounds for 120 points.
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3 minutes ago, Drib said:
No it doesn't? Desolating Beast Herd is any hits, not just melee. That's the thing I was mentioning with raiders.
Since I'd done the maths for Desolating Beast Herd Ungor Raiders I decided to do Euphoric Killer Hedonite Ungor, which does only work on melee.
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17 hours ago, Televiper11 said:
Ungor Raiders are awesome. Especially if run in the Desolating Beastherd battalion. Ran 40 and shot my opponent off the table.
I might have done the maths wrong, but 4+ (reroll 1s and 2s, 2 hits on a 6)/4+ works out as the same end result of 3+/3+, or 4/9 damage per ungor before saves.
I'm curious as to what the best way to equip HoS Ungor will be.
Spear Ungor (30+)
5+ (reroll 1s and 2s, 3 hits on a 6)/4+.
Is 0.44 damage per ungor before saves.
Spear Ungor (20-29)
5+( reroll 1s, 2 hits on a 6)/4+.
Is 0.29 damage per ungor before saves.
Spear Ungor (less than 20)
5+ ( 2 hits on a 6)/4+.
Is 0.25 damage per ungor before saves.
Club Ungor (30+)
4+ (reroll 1s and 2s, 3 hits on a 6)/4+.
Is 0.56 damage per ungor before saves.
Club Ungor (20-29)
4+ (reroll 1s, 3 hits on a 6)/4+.
Is .49 damage per ungor before saves.
Club Ungor (less than 20).
4+ (2 hits on a 6)/4+.
Is 0.33 damage per ungor before saves.
I don't know why I did this, but I started and apparently there is something wrong with me.
20+ Bestigor Vs a big unit that isn't order gets 2 damage per Bestigor before saves on the charge.
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3 hours ago, garmr said:
I think all the artifacts and traits are linked to the hosts judging by the examples shown. There's nothing in the ruling that says That BOC battalion can't be part of a host. So they should get all the benefits. The only thing it looks like we miss out on is the spell lore. (not including endless spells.)
There is nothing stopping beasts in Khorne from being members of a slaughter host (the equivalent), and taking their command trait or relic. That said, mostly isn't super useful since they tend to refer to mortals (sometimes even a specific unit type) or daemons.
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So, looks like BoC might be really good in Slaanesh. Ungor end up a bit silly with Euphoric Killers. You easily get to generating 3 hits for every 6. With clubs that means each ungor gets 1.1 hit, each ungor with spear gets .89 hits. That's pretty good
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7 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:
The problem with using BoC under Khorne allegiance is that a lot of stuff won't work on them.
No demon/mortal-specific buffs. This basically leaves bloodsecrator and priests. Also without allegiance BoC lose all of their ways to get up the board fast except the run+charge.
Is slower BoC with bloodsecrator and priests better than BoC with just a BoC allegiance? Who knows, maybe. Or maybe it's just same Khorne, but with worse saves.
The lack of buffs is over stated. They benefit from more than enough good buffs. The main ones they seem to lose the Aspiring Death Bringer extra attack, and the Blood Stoker buff. They also lose the Mighty Lord of Khorne reroll charges. I'm not saying that these are not good buffs, but they remain effected by the Wrath Mongers, Slaughter Priests and Bloodsectrator, and have some very good attacks to boost.
Khorne BoC can't ambush, but honestly it's not much to miss out on. You say they are not much faster, but Gors and Bestigors both run and charge, and get +1 to the run, meaning that they basically run 7+d6. That's an average move of 10.5 and can still charge. Centigor move stupidly fast, a default 14 +1 + d6 for charging.
I also don't know why you are saying that BoC have worse saves than Khorne. The beast shields give Gors and Centigors a 4+ in combat, and Bestigor have a 4+ native.
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7 minutes ago, Mikeymajq said:
edit: oh cool so brass despoilers would become part of your BoK army? What units does it require you to take? (damnit, I don't need more stuff!
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Yeah, they do. They lack the mortal keyword but benefit from anything that buffs Khorne in general.
1-4 combination of Beastlord and Doombull; 3-8 combination of Bestigors, Bullgors, and Gors; 0-8 combination of Centigors, Dragon Ogors, or Tuskgor Chariots; 0-2 combination of Cygors or Ghorgons.
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2 hours ago, Battlefury said:
Using Beasts of Chaos was a thing I did concider too. But a few sides before someone stated, that they can not be used in the Blades of Khorne allegiance, although they would gain the KHORNE keyword.
Is that right?
You can run Brass Despoilers in Khorne.
Q: Can Brass Despoilers, Phantasmagoria of Fate, Pestilent Throng and Depraved Drove be used as part of a Chaos army that owes allegiance to a Chaos God? For example, can I take a Brass Despoilers battalion as part of a Khorne army? A: Yes
‘Units from this battalion gain the Khorne keyword. In addition, this warscroll battalion is part of the Khorne faction and the Beasts of Chaos faction.’
It works. I'm looking forward to trying it (I'm BoC main).
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1 hour ago, Furuzzolo said:
I don't want to start a flame, just to make you re-think the popularity topic.
2 weeks ago people were chanting that the fyreslayer topic had 7 pages and none was interested in the faction cause of the looks of the models. Well, I kinda surf all the duardin-suburban-cluster around the internet and now I see a LOT of people start collecting the army and hyped around the frigging 2+ save and hearthguard berserkers....
Still, same models.
Edit: the point is that, MAYBE, rules that make an army fun to play weight more than people think regarding popularity.
I haven't started Fyreslayers (way too big a gray mountain) myself. but was tempted. One thing that really put me off FS 1.0 is that in order to run it you needed to paint blocks of 30 Vulkites, which ends up damn expensive, and also very same-y in an army that visually has issues with that.
If you can run a more elite force then that obstacle no longer applies, for example a hearthguard and heroes based list, or heavy magmadroths.
Another issue (At least for me) is that people are waiting for books to be updated before they jump in, not necessarily because they want the latest OP thing, but so they know what to build stuff as. Look at Kharadron Overlords, at the moment the Arkanaut Company can take 3 light sky hooks, but the box only gives one, along with a volley gun and a pike. If they change the warscroll the way that they did for storm fiends then a lot of people are going to have to readjust. If you have other projects on, it makes sense to wait.
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3 hours ago, Kasper said:
Damn, that's so smart. 😋 Thanks a lot for the explanation! I guess you don't want all the bases to be right up against each other, since the enemy model will be able to hit over the ungor screen, since 25mm bases equals just less than an inch? Meaning no beak or disc attacks, just spears from the enlightened?
There is also a very good chance that the unit of ungor is either dead, or going to run in the battle shock phase.
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6 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Can you explain this "clip-charge trick"? I have seen it mentioned multiple times, but haven't really been able to find a good explanation of it.
Not the person you asked, but can give a brief description. You charge an enemy with ungors (the screen) and Enlightened. Imagine they line up like this.
O O O O O O
u u u u u u u E
E E E E E.
Only one enlightened is within range of the enemy unit. They have "clipped" it.
So you can attack first with the ungor, they swing back, with only one or two being able to target the Enlightened, Ungor take the hits, Enlightened pile in (and can attack over the top of the ungor if any survive), getting their rerolls without taking too much damage.
You need to clip the unit to complete the charge, since the enlightened need to end the charge with at least one within half an inch.
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I'm not a KO player, but love the look and flavour. I have way too many projects on to start a new army right now, so fine to wait for a new tome/updates. That said, fyreslayers are apparently going to 2 wounds each, which opens up the possibility for KO as well. If they did up the sound count on troops it seems like they might end up making KO more elite overall. Any thoughts? If it was just a wound increase, what kind of points increase would follow?
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4 minutes ago, xking said:
Two wounds each seems like a big deal
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3 hours ago, novakai said:
TBH the first three BT for AoS 2.0 had their distinct downsides
BoC: the power of the tome seem to be more on the Tzaangors part of the army then vanilla Beastmen
Yeah, there are some definite issues.
Kinda disagree on the BoC front though. I played Tzeentch before BoC and have to say I'm really impressed with how they handled BoC. Tzaangors are good, bit have definite downsides. Enlightened are too cheap, would be a main point I'd make. They should probably flip the points cost of Bullgor and Enlightened.
That said? Internal balance is pretty good I have to say. The old beastmen hold up very well, and are definitely not invalidated by Tzaangor. There are a couple of units that could do with a tweak.
-Gor are a little bit misbegotten. They suffer in comparison with a fair few other units, with centigor actually showing them up the worst. That said, they do represent unconditional battle line that's fast and reasonably durable in combat. I've definitely seen them used well
-Warhounds are also shown up by centigors. Centigors are just so much faster. Warhounds get to auto run 16 inches, which is very fast. Centigors run 16-21 and can still charge, while fighting better and having a much better save. I love the fluffy guys, but they really could do with being battle line, or just something.
-Monsters. Monsters are in such a weird place balance wise. I think it's one of the weakest areas of AoS in general.
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AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
I'll try and take a comparison picture when I get a chance. What do you want, Ungor next to ghoul? Anything else?