Reuben Parker
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Posts posted by Reuben Parker
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32 minutes ago, Mutton said:
One of the most significant problems for SoB is the fact that a single -1 hit ability will utterly cripple a mega gargant...which is 1/4 your army. Not to mention the rampant -1 hit spells out there. They should have been given a rule that allows them to ignore negative modifiers to hit or wound.
Not so sure about that.
impact hits and pickup attacks aren’t bothered. Then the only mega who hits on 4+ and thus gets the largest % damage loss is the gatebreaker who has a tribe that allows him to get +1 to hit vs certain units.
for mega attacks on 3+ your losing 25% output but you still have 75% conventional damage and then impact and pickups so quite easily still going to get around 13 - 15 damage through a 4+ on the charge.
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3 hours ago, Equinox said:
Any thoughts about how mega-G's can be used in a generic grand alliance destruction? The grand alliances tend to be overlooked because the faction specific stuff is so much better, but I do wonder if there are any gold nuggets with these guys. A few of the generic command traits (Might is Right and Wild Fury) and Artefacts seem like they could be put to good use on a mega-G. You could also use generic battleline units that are cheap to compensate for the loss of the model count rule that is part of the Sons faction rules. Just a thought...
Hadn’t even thought of that but actually quite interesting. Could do a cheap battalion as well like a Skal for screening and objectives capping. Then have two mega with items and either the +1 wound or +1 hit traits for the general are both very nice.
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As always time will tell but I really don’t feel this army won’t be competitive because of faction rules or warscrolls. When broken down the damage output and hardness to kill actually seems pretty fine. The main gameplay issue will be lack of chaff as chaff play is a core concept of competitive play. We can get around it to some degree with solo gargant units and ranged / impact hits to clear out chaff but it will make matchups vs heavy hitters sitting behind multiple chaff screens very tough.
gameplay wise the only big tweak I can see is a points adjustment to gargants 15 ppw on 5+ is steep even with pretty good damage output. This and FAQ in regards to casting / dispel and walk over endless spells.
I see people asking for “fun” rules but how much fun do you have when you roll a double on a charge for an Aleguzzler? The giants have pickup and throw attacks, crushing impacts, timber etc for their fluff.
let’s get some games in and see what can be done with the book as is. I think people maybe surprised as a couple of Mega setups allow for very good damage output even down to 1 wound. As such you can win games that maybe look like lost causes.
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38 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:
Excellent analysis @Reuben Parker! I'm currently doing my own write up on Breakers and I agree with almost every word you've written.
Let us know how you get on if you run this army? Would love to hear some batreps.
I’m hopeful for the weekend after release for a game or two but I have the pre order coming to my house so it kind of depends when it arrives as to if I have time to build them or not. I find sometimes pre orders to home can come in midweek.
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Breaker Tribe breakdown.
I thought I would do a little write up on the breaker tribe as I see on this forum and other sources them being rated often as the worst tribe.
I have them second behind stomper but with being more consistent as stomper may have lists where no units of 10+ models exist.
+1 damage vs units in cover. People will rightly say that this will never kick in and that’s correct as your opponent won’t let it. In essence the rule reads opponents don’t get the benefit of cover to their save and that’s pretty strong as a passive buff. A number of heroes and also re roll save units love to sit in cover.
The smaller giants destroying terrain is meh as the gatebreaker does it so much easier anyway and it’s not going to be super common.
+1 to hit should be taken vs either heroes and wizards or command models as this will cover the most units.
heroes is Normally a smaller % of your opponents army but a lot of lists fall apart without buff heroes. It also works well with gatebreaker very powerful ranged attacks. 2 gatebreaker with a blob of 3 giants throwing rocks will kill a support hero a turn on average.
general upgrades my go to will be +2 attacks trait and 6+++ shrug. Although I could see going shrug and +5 wounds as then it takes on average 48 wounds to kill him.
Running breakers you get to run the mega with the most native damage output and is the only sub faction that buffs the damage of its mega. Going from 4+ to 3+ on the flail will be a 33% damage increase.
I would run a double gatebreaker 3x1 1x3 setup and I think it will be a strong build for SoB. Giving strong character sniping a tough to kill general and very high -3 rend output.
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Yeah I’m going to run the army as is but also planning to fit the chaos merc into my chaos dwarves. They lack a high rend beat stick and his -1 stomp aura will combine nicely with the -1 trait on the general.
army has ranged and great chaff killing 12 fireborn average 40 damage but all at rend 0 so his high rend will definitely come in handy.
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46 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:
So listened to the brutal HWG AoS monday episode tonight review of the battletome.
A few points to note:
- army can't cast endless spells, as krakeneater artefact doesn't give the wizard keyword. Same for dispelling endless spells.
- warstomper, with 1 big and 9 small is probably the strongest build.
- due to an FAQ on allowed publications, the 2 merc companies from Forbidden Power are currently matched play legal. So ally in an archregent for a double caster to get those endless spells casts/dispels, plus summoning 20 ghouls for backline objective holding/screens.
- Longshanks ability doesn't allow you to move over units in standard movement. Base of mega-garant is 130mm + 3" stay out of range of opponent + 25mm minimum base size of opposing unit + another 3" stay out of range of opponent from otherside of their base = 12.10", so it only works retreating or running. It can't be used during the charge phase or piling in, as they aren't normal moves. Without run and charge, it's not great and very situational, as retreating or running means no charges. (this info is from the plastic craic review)
There is lots of other info from the HWG episode and they hit a lot of points home. Highly recommend listening to it.
I still plan to do the army, but at least now I'm not going into it with rose tinted titanic warclubs 😂
These are good points my take :
wait for faq on longshanks for endless spells and Also casting them see if it gets added or not.
the 1 big 9 small does seem good, personally I haven’t gone that route mainly as it makes leader role scoring missions a real uphill struggle. Then in terms of rule of cool I want a couple of Mega.
forbidden power is interesting with the merc companies do you have to take a leader role or could you say take 2 grimwrath berserkers?I was wondering if longshanks wouldn’t make it over a base due to the huge pie plate so nice to see someone math it. The rule still has applications either clipping a base or coming within 3” as part of a move somewhere.
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I agree the army is going to have its issues maybe FAQ and some slight tweaks to points may solve it to a degree. All that aside an army with zero screening will always have a relatively low ceiling in competitive play. However for me I really enjoy using and trying to make work armies that are weaker and non meta.
I would love to see a minimal points tweak to allow 3 gatebreaker and 3x1 Mancrusher or evening slightly larger points tweaks to allow 2 mega 2x3 Mancrusher 1 Mancrusher.
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59 minutes ago, Mutton said:
I don't know why they think 35 wounds is going to stand up to much in this game. Magic and mortals are the meta and a single unit of competent horde infantry can bring a mega down in 2 combat phases. I think most games with SoB are going to end by the third battle round, usually with the gargants getting whomped by combined arms. Any kind of shrug would have helped immensely.
Either that or they'll just get mucked up with crappy 5-man units. I'm really hoping their Longshanks lets them walk away from combat (but I doubt it will).FLoSH are seen as competitive and they’re 13/14 wounds on 3+ 5+++ shrug (Equivalent to roughly 21 wounds)so considerably less tanky per point than a mega especially vs mortals. If your worried about hordes then that’s where stomper tribe excels or breaker taking +1 to hit vs command models.
stomper tribe has a re roll saves item and breaker has 6+++ shrug item.
against shooting / magic SoB are going to be 140 odd wounds however it’s built and fast with some ok ranged sniping. Apart from things like endless spell locking which may well get FAQ for longshanks they’re not really anymore vulnerable to it than other melee armies. Also it’s easy for SoB to space out so spells don’t hit multiple units and they can take advantage of shrug terrain better than any other army.
Their offence and defence when broken down seems actually perfectly fine. It’s more screening etc where they’re at a huge disadvantage.
maybe some points tweaks may happen (180 for a maneater seems high) but at most I expect SoB to be able to fit in one extra maneater.
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Wait for FAQ as I saw a few pages back it was discussed and someone posted a screenshot of the designer saying that they can cast endless spells with the lantern. Dispelling wasn’t addressed from what I saw in the chat. I would imagine though that would be intended as well but again see if an FAQ drops. If that happens it does give takers a niche as dispelling an endless spell would be a big boon.
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3 minutes ago, Beliman said:
I'm playing with https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/ at the moment: PDF down, 3 megas and a unit of 3 mancrushers without tribe and 1 unit of 3 mancrushers buffed by the Warstomper tribe and 1 shout).
Some things:
The Warstompers can give a lot to their fellow Mancrushers (dmg and movility).
The Gatekeepers fully tooled to kill Heroes is a monster (30 wounds to 4+saves).
I don't know how to play with the Kraken-eater. Maybe sit on an objective and kick it when 20 hearthguards charge your big boy?That’s my plan either to play a stomper plus gatebreaker Stompers list or a double gatebreaker breakers list. I see a lot of love online for the takers but their damage output doesn’t seem on par to me. Fancy rules are fine but in sigmar you need to be able to delete your opponents threatening units.
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11 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:
Well that's a little more reassuring damage wise but yeah the logistic issues remain as you say with the game mechanics.
My plan is a 2 mega 1x3 3x1 man eater build. Push the 3 solo ones to take objectives vs melee armies. Your opponent can’t shift them with chaff and will have to send one of their damage dealers and hopefully allow for a counter attack from your mega or blob of 3. The army will struggle against lists that can make an insane deathstar as we can’t screen it.
also I don’t see us beating elite melee armies that make us fight last like Fyreslayers or slaanesh. Our only hope would be lucky shooting to snipe heroes or impact hits if they position poorly.
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I can’t refute lack of customization or lack of warscrolls. I’ve said several times my main gripe is lack of artifacts / traits for each Mega I personally feel they should all get one.
however I will push back on saying they hit like wet noodles. On page 42 someone has done a breakdown of their expected damage vs 4+ saves. In summary
kraken 9.27
stomper 12.3
breaker 13.34
maneater 5.03
and they compared to FLoSH (a feared hero on monster and sees competitive play) 12.82
so they are around the FLoSH level before you factor in their special attacks and their shooting (both have good impact hits). Also what gets lost in the shuffle is they actually don’t degrade that badly. Even at 1 wound a stomper still can get 10 attacks with his club. A breaker with the +2 attacks trait at 1 wound has 7 flail attacks still. Also the couple of rr1s are not included but don’t make a huge difference.
the kraken also gets a huge boost if you give him the jaws and sandals artifacts (although he and takers are my least fav).
then stomper tribe can massively up the damage output of man eaters. Whilst breaker tribe +1 to hit is huge for the mega and his 4+ to hit flail either go heroes wizards or command models would be my choices. So you have models that actually have good damage output that are consistent all the way to death. The competitive issue is more around screening and zoning but that’s a product of AoS itself not SoB.
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56 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:
A bit of a worst case scenario for me as the models are incredible but the rules are just so meh. Saved me an awful lot of money Mind you!
Can’t believe how much they are charging...
What don’t you like about the rules?
The only thing I feel was missing was either a artifact/trait per mega Gargant or a cheap battalion to achieve the same end.
apart from that I like the 3 mega Gargants rules and the faction main and sub faction rules seem solid to me.
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1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:
Yes, logically it should. But endless spells are different to normal models in that they don't have to abide by the rule of staying outside of 3".
As longshanks specifies models with a wound count, endless spells don't have a wounds characteristics so don't fall into that category. They also don't full under the category of terrain either.
So currently longshanks doesn't work with endless spells.
I see what your saying. maybe be a day one faq we already need one for the lantern to be in line with the designers comments.
I guess the only other defence would be to have multiple bases together touching to stop the triangle point pinning.
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44 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:
So the gargant artefact allows to cast/unbind like a wizard.
It doesn't let you dispel endless spells, because you don't gain the wizard keyword, instead it only let's you cast or unbind 'like' a wizard, nothing mentioned about dispelling like a wizard.
So this currently means that you have no way to dispel endless spells for gargants, even if taking this artefact.
Now add into the mix something like Soulsnare Shackles. Casts on a 5 and can be set up in a triangle formation around the large base of the mega gargant, with the 3 models of the spell.
You can't fly as a gargant and you can't even use the 'longshanks' ability to walk over endless spells.
So until an FAQ corrects this in-game interaction, your 500pt mega gargant can be completely immobilised for the entire by a 40pt endless spell.
They are models with less than 10 wounds as they don’t have a wound stat at all. Logically longshanks should still work as they have 0 wounds Which is equal to or less than 10.
Longshanks to not work would have to be worded a model with a wounds stat 1 to 10.
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26 minutes ago, kaaras said:
So, to bring the tone down a little, anyone seen the pre-order prices on this thing? $320 smackers here down under... the hype train has been derailed. Might be better elsewhere but that is steep, even if the model is awesome...
It’s expensive all round maybe Aus is worse. However it’s still around how much you would pay for any other army. 1100 odd Canadian got me 2 mega, 6 Gargants, tome and cards today which is about standard for a 2k army.
I know pricing seems to be a big deal for a lot of people as it’s more than an imperial knight. I never worry too much on that side of things I more think about how much the entire army costs rather than individual box set prices.
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5 minutes ago, novakai said:
man i want to do breaker just to destroy every Bone tithe nexus that comes around
I’m leaning towards stomper but probably run a gatebreaker as a second mega in it for his utility destroying terrain and making opponents not want to get cover saves whilst adding another nice snipe attack.
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So now people have seen all the allegiance videos etc what are people’s fav tribe?
for me it’s probably the stomper still running d3 command points and re roll saves on general then probably a Gatebreaker 3x1 and 1x3 Gargants.
however the breaker tribe I also really like for the +1 hit vs command models and a general on 40 wounds with 6+ shrug although for breaker I kinda feel you just focus on multiple gatebreaker and Gargants so they all get the +1 hit.
seems there’s a lot of love for kraken but I feel the shift in counts as won’t make a huge difference going 10-15 and 20-30 and the kicking objectives as others have broken down is quite limited by needing to be controlling it and within an inch.
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2 minutes ago, a74xhx said:
Powergaming to defeat Longshanks: for every unit build one extra model with a very long 4 inch weapon pointing upwards or a really tall hat. Worried about line of sight? Ok - RAW, nothing on your army list says you have to use the exact same models against non SoB armies.
It’s 4” terrain features models can be 20 feet high as long as less than 10 wounds
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Indeed a more nuanced approach is generally better. However the re roll saves does seem the best of the bunch we’ve seen. I would also love a shrug even if it’s only a 6+.
Even if the lantern does allow all a wizards actions it is still going to be on the weaker end once you factor in most armies bringing some form of anti magic. Magic in general is best as an overload stratagey.
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14 minutes ago, Mutton said:
They're all junk save for the cestus.
Cowl - Rerolling 1s to wound against heroes and all wounds against the general...this is nothing. Too specific. Why isn't this just flat rerolling wounds??? You know, like almost every other artifact in the game will do for you. When the enemy knows you have this he's just going to keep heroes away from the dude. You don't have many models, so it won't be hard to do.
MogJaws - Rerolling 1 hit, wound, or save die per phase isn't going to affect anything enough to be significant. Almost nothing gained.
Lantern - So you can make a giant a level 1 wizard with no unique spells. Okay? To what end? So you can maybe mystic shield or arcane bolt something? Half of the other wizards in the game are going to easily unbind you---some automatically. It's a good premise for an artifact, but unless it's giving him multiple casts, bonuses to cast, etc...it's effectively useless.
I think your underestimating the jaws. The re rolls will be very useful with things like the death grip attack and also makes his shooting a bit more consistent. Then a single save re roll not so much but still at times it may help to shave some damage off.
lantern I agree isn’t fantastic but I think it’s main use will be actually if you want the opportunity to dispel endless spells in your hero phase rather than using it for casting.
cestus though as you say is best of the bunch. I hope they have a rule where every mega gargant gets an artifact.
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19 minutes ago, Falkman said:
The units have a self-buffing spell sure, but they can also pick a spell each from the spell lore as well so I think you will have a very flexible army when it comes to spell casting, and will be able to overcome most magic defenses simply through the sheer amount of spells you will be casting each turn. Attempting 7-8 spells per turn seems very doable, and that’s not counting Teclis.
I’m thinking about maybe 4xspears, 4xarchers 2xcav as a core at only 1300 still leaves plenty for characters / elite stuff and is already a whole bunch of spells. I think Lumineth can make for a very interesting MSU army (which I’m a fan of).
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11 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:
Every party needs a pooper that's why we invited you...
nah, I'm just salty that we can't play them yet and test out all this. I don't think that the matchups with Kharadons would be that doom and gloom with Teclis, and I think there is some way to screen the squishy mage. it all depends on the matchup and the mission. Working around the lack of movement is going to be interesting, and I want to see if I can get the mountain Spirits to work, because if I read it right then 5 damage per hit is insane.
It is a tad annoying how people are immidiately shouting down people's fun with this, and until we actually get data it just turns into a "spear" measuring contest.
Not sure about you but my spear has 3” reach.
I actually think this army even with limited choices will have quite a few possible builds as everything seems playable. I’m not the biggest fan of Teclis (I don’t like huge point sinks in general) but still there will be lists with him that can be competitive for sure.
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19 minutes ago, Lucur said:
Is it just me or are sentinels pretty bonkers? A 20 man unit does an average 7 MW with their spell on, 8 with RR1s from the battalion, 11 if they get full rerolls to hit (and reroll anything not a MW). Plus the negligible bit of actual hits. At 30" without LoS. I can't see myself leave home without 20. Or 40.
I was thinking this last night after reading someone a few pages back saying non of the core seemed broken if spammed. Mass archer for sure will be a problem for a lot of armies. It also to some degree solves the movement issue in the army by giving the army such a strong ranged threat.
They’re kind of another nail in the teclics coffin as well. Teclis + endless spell around 700 points or 50 archers. 50 archers seems way more threatening at range to me whilst being a big blob of wounds / screening / objectives.
My old high elf army was mass archer and spearmen with a few cav / chariots and minimal heroes. Thinking my Lumineth will be the same which is going to be nice and fun
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Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣
in Destruction
Posted · Edited by Reuben Parker
Already addressed
Ignore it’s already been addressed and can’t see delete post option.