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dmorley21

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    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    9 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

    I doubt I’d ever do it due to the financial cost, but thoughts on this random list I came up with?

    Allegiance: Nighthaunt

    Leaders
    Dreadblade Harrow (90)
    Dreadblade Harrow (90)
    Reikenor the Grimhailer (160)

    Battleline
    5 x Hexwraiths (130)
    5 x Hexwraiths (130)
    5 x Hexwraiths (130)
    5 x Hexwraiths (130)

    Behemoths
    Black Coach (220)
    Black Coach (220)
    Black Coach (220)
    Black Coach (220)

    Battalions
    Deathriders (130)
    Deathriders (130)

    Total: 2000 / 2000
    Extra Command Points: 2
    Allies: 0 / 400
    Wounds: 105
     

    I remember there was someone who had  success running a double Death Riders list at some tournaments in the US. 

    As for the list, I'd say there's no reason for the third and fourth Black Coach. They don't fit into the battalions and thus don't really serve a role. If you're going for double battalion, I'd guess you'd want enough leaders to take the three artefacts it gives you. But that list would be a lot of fun to play. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    4 hours ago, Thamalys said:

    I disagree. Personal opinion: Reikenor is pivotal to very specific builds, while Lady Olynder is always useful. Kurdoss should come down at 120-130 pts and have a proper command ability. Having said that, his +3 to cast, as opposed to Kurdoss' CP stealing on a 5, is quite reliable. Sadly, I fear we are heading toward a meta where even a +3 to cast might prove not-so-useful... I love Reiki's model and I did play it quite a bit. I have also included him in a Soulblight a couple of times, where he can get a silly +5 to cast (happy days)...

    I do think Reikenor could use a second cast or command ability or some kind of bubble effect to fully justify his use. However, his speed often gets overlooked. At 14", he's the fastest hero in our army. My opponents typically don't target him once my endless spells are on the board, so he's great at flying around and grabbing objectives. 

    1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

    We should move on.

    "We’ll be previewing both Battletome: Stormcast Eternals and Battletome: Nighthaunt in more detail next week, but we can safely say these are some of the best battletomes EVER." - Warhammer Community post June 24th, 2018. Boy, time was not kind to these tomes, was it?

    The battletome was released June 30th, 2018.

    Various murmurs both on these forums and in a few Discords (AoS Coach's in particular) are suggesting that the meager release of points for GHB2020, the slowness to confirm if our December offerings are still legal, and passing the our 2nd birthday are all classic GW indicators that we might be having a new tome just over the horizon.

    What do you guys think? What would you like to see? What would make NH competitive in the current meta, and even better, what would make it a bit more future-proof than it currently is?

    Personally, I would love to see the following changes:

    • Legion of Grief's ability for the general to spend a CP to bring back a destroyed unit. We won't be able to complain too much about being evaporated in a single shooting phase if we can bring that unit back.
    • Wave of Terror changed to either be on a CP spent during the charge phase but can only be activated once per unit, OR, the first unit to make a successful charge move gets to immediately pile in and attack. Either would make WoT a tactical choice, and a reliable one that requires resource management or planning a couple moves ahead, instead of it being totally random and likely to shaft us.
    • Ethereal, when applied to Nighthaunt, incurs a -1 to hit penalty from ranged attacks beyond 6". We're ghosts, fluttering in and out of phase with the plane. We should be harder to hit at a distance.
    • More ways to get casting/unbind bonuses. Or just casting since we have Banshees (who should have a longer range on that ability).
    • And perhaps most importantly remove "wholly" from our 12" Deathless save!

    Honestly, I'd be very surprised to see a new Nighthaunt battletome at this point. I think a campaign book along the lines of Wrath of the Everchosen is more likely that will offer different rules for Nighthaunt - sort of like Legion of Grief. Then I think Nighthaunt will receive a battletome in AoS 3.0 that will be a hybrid of those three things. 

    As for what I'd love... well quite a bit. The first though is to continue to allow Nighthaunt to be Nighthaunt. They're an army that relies on movement shenanigans, which always makes for interesting games win or lose IMO. If they lost that identity, I think I'd lose my passion for them as an army. So, while I hope they're made battle, I hope that part doesn't go away. It's what drew me to them in the first place. 

    • Like 3

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    7 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

    New Zealand. Every tournament organiser has their own rules for what’s allowed, but all of them respect gw IP and would refuse anything that isn’t a legitimate copy/can’t verify you actually own a legitimate copy (for example, I have a teams event coming up that has flat-out banned digital, but I wouldn’t be allowed to just print out my digital copy even though I can prove I own it legitimately because you actually aren’t allowed to make copies of gw books)

    I'm just glad it's not like that at the small local tournaments I play in the US. I've bough all my books on the app for my phone, and wouldn't be able to print if I wanted. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    3 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

    The expectation is that you would print out the faqs/errata for your books. Whereas printing a copy of digital content you bought is not allowed (according to the front page of every gw publication)

    Where do you play? I've only done small tournaments in the midwest (US), but have never encountered this and didn't know it was a thing. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    If we get any clarity on the White Dwarf battalions, it will be in the general GHB2020 FAQ as this is an issue that affects all armies that have received White Dwarf battalions. 

    I was just re-reading the GHB2020, and it states, "With the exception of Legends units, only units that are included in this book or that have a later publication date can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent." 

    I emphasized the word units, as warscroll battalions are not units. I'm not playing competitively anytime soon, but until I see something that states otherwise, I'm going to assume that the White Dwarf battalions are still fair game. 

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    57 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

    I found this in the Designer's Commentary of the Core Rules

    Our WD battalions are safe. Thanks for coming to my Spook Talk

    That's promising, but we'll just have to see. Do email the team if you haven't. 

    9 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

    Then by that logic the Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass is legal too ?

    Sadly, no. That got moved into legends in the GHB which is different all together. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

    So bare in mind that my gaming recently has been a bit mute due to covid,

    Shooting lists. This is KO, Tzeentch and especially lizards. As so many of our units rely on hero support to function, whether that's for re-roll 1s, 6++ ward save, etc...and as they are so squishy, it's not very difficult for shooting armies to pop out heroes in turn. I lost 4 out of 6 in one turn to lizards in a recent game. The only reason the other two didn't die,w as because they were in the Underworlds waiting to come onto the table. Most of these armies have units that either have the range or have the ability to get into range very easily. There isn't much chance of blocking or countering it, it just happens. You have to hope that you can roll well.

    Magic Doms. This is lizards, OBR, Tzeentch and soon to be lumineth (and in a way Khorne a little bit). We are a weak casting army, even with Riek, who gets 1 cast, and most of our spells are at 12" range. Teclis for example has unlimited unbinds, can auto-cast spells (varies depending on level, either four at 10+, two at 12+ or one auto which can't be unbound). In a game where you try and out play your opponent, saving your best spells to be cast when your opponent has ran out of unbinds, or is unable to reach you to unbind, these magic dom armies can basically shut down any magic. So if you are relying on being able to cast that spell, to buff the unit, to get them to do what you want, it's pointless even trying. And the mortal wound output from some of these casters is just gross. Again our squishy heroes have no chance of not getting one shooted. In fact it's even easier to take them out with magic, than it is via shooting.

    Resilience. The new lumineth stoneguard (hammer dude) can be made to ignore up to -2 rend. iirc they can be given +1 save. As there is so little -3 rend in the game, this effectively makes them 3+ ethereal dudes. They are 100pts for 5 guys, but they are 2 wounds a pop, which makes our bladegheists awful by comparison. They are just one example of incredibly resilient units that have come around. Even with the new rules to stop ward saves stacking, there is a lot of units in the game that we can not take out in a turn, even with a 10+ charge. And these aren't fringe units, they are often core units, such as mortek. So it becomes a situation of how to engage with an enemy that can punch you in one hit, but it's going to take you multiple goes before they disappear.

    There is some other bits and pieces, like Focal Points scoring extra for behemoths, which we just can't compete in as a mission, and being an army that is going to struggle without the WD battalions, stacking ward saves, realm artefacts. Leaders score more points, but all of ours die to a stiff breeze, so getting them in range to score more make them more likely to die in your opponent's turn. It's basically come to battleline are very good in GHB20. We have lots of good battleline options. Fly and fast movement is good, we have that in abundance. So we have to play to those strengths. 

    Thanks for sharing. There's probably going to be a lot more hypotheticals than actuals for the next little while due to COVID. 

    The Dolorous Guard battalion really made me no longer fear shooting lists. I'm still hoping against hope that it stays, despite evidence seeming to point to that not being the case.  

    I'd say our casting is average, not weak. Reikenor and a GoS can both get +'s to cast. Lady Olynder gets two casts. Midnight Tome is a great option - especially with small heroes being more worth it now. Slapping that on a Tomb Banshee or a Cairn Wraith makes for a nice little mage. Vampires are still good allies. My most recent list had 5-6 casts (with a double cast for Reik sometimes from slowing down Cogs). That being said, it's certainly not a strength either. Does Teclis get any bonus to his unbinds? 

    The Lumineth Stoneguard sound problematic, but so were Mortek Guard/Witch Aelves/Phoenix Guard. I do like that they're 2 wound models, which makes it harder for them to hold objectives as that's what those resilient units are great at. 

    Focal Points does annoy me as I still haven't been convinced on The Black Coach or Mourngul being strong additions and just overall because unlike leaders and battleline, access to behemoths is not as universal for armies. 

    Overall though, I don't think we're in a worst spot than before the White Dwarf battalions. Which of course is not a great spot, but life's tough for a ghost. 

    • Like 3

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    16 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

    When they roll well they are great but when they fluff, my god they fluff hard, maybe it's the weight of dice that do nothing 😂. 

    But ultimately I think the question we need to be asking isn't what units shall we fit into our lists with the new points changes, it's what options can we use to deal with Teclis, with shooting lizards, with resilient OBR, etc...and I can't see harridans as being part of that solution unfortunately, in fact I've had a vision of the future..... 

    "what is it that your future eyes have seen?" 

    "Grims. Grims as far as you can see. At first I thought it was 2018 again, but no, it was 2020 and grims had come around full circle to once again be spammed, with every NH list taking a minimum of 90, and some as many as 150."

    Can you explain the current meta from a NH perspective a bit more? 

    I haven't played since the Tzeentch/KO release and haven't followed Wrath of the Everchosen, Seraphon, or Lumineth at all. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    47 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

    @dmorley21 the main issue with harridans is:-

    - 1" reach makes units of 10+ redundant 

    - no inbuilt reroll ability, which they need hitting on 4+, so in order to function they need to be babysat by a torment or similar 

    - their -1 to hit ability affects about 4 units in the entire game. I use them all the time and can not remember the last time that the -1 actually came into effect 

    - not battleline and don't fit into any useful battalions 

    I love them but they need to just give out a -1 to hit regardless of bravery. 

    You bring up some good points.

    I've always had a unit of 10, and have had a lot of success with them typically without any hero support. They can make a great support unit if one of my anvils gets bogged down. More often, they're solid hero/MSU/lesser behemoth hunters. I've had many opponents not worry too much about them and focus on my Reapers/Blades/Lady O only to have a key unit/model wiped by the Harridans. They're also great objective hunters as they can typically wipe off other objective holders in a single round of combat. 

    In my previous list, I had a unit of 10 Harridans and two units of 5 Bladegheists. I'm very tempted to now run two units of 10 Harridans and open up 40 pts. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    Like others, I just sent an email about the WD battalions. 

    On another note, I wanted to talk about Dreadscythe Harridans. I might be biased here, because I often take a unit of 10 (love the lore and the models) and they often exceed my expectations and catch my opponents by surprise as they're unfamiliar with them. However, I think with the most recent points drops there's a case that Harridans might be one of the best units in our book. 

    At 70/260, they come out to be 14/13 pts per wound. Here's where that compares to other units:

    Chainrasps: 8/7 pts per wound (ppw)

    Hexwraiths: 13 

    Spirit Hosts: 13.3

    Harridans: 14/13 

    Stalkers: 15 

    Reapers: 16/14

    Myrmourns: 17.5

    Bladegheists: 18/16

     

    So, just looking at how much they cost per wound you can see they have some decent value. Granted, they're not battleline, so that hurts, but the value is there. But then I decided to calculate how much damage they do on average before saves (I did one attack causing 2 damage for every 6) and the results look like this:

    A unit of five: 5.3

    A unit of ten: 11.2 

    A unit of fifteen: 17.18 

    A unit of twenty: 22.13

     

    That damage output is really good by Nighthaunt standards. It's more output than Reapers (including their re-rolls) and Bladegheists that don't get charge off that turn. However, it really shines when you look at how much in terms of points you're paying for that damage:

    A unit of five: 13.2 pts

    A unit of ten: 12.5 pts

    A unit of fifteen: 12.2 pts

    A unit of twenty: 11.7 pts

     

    So how does that compare? Well, for Reapers that are fighting hordes, you're paying 16/14 pts per each wound before saves and 24/21 if they're not fighting hordes. For Chainrasps, you're also paying 16/14 pts and you don't get any rend. For Bladegheists, you're paying 14/12 if they're on the charge, and 20/18 if they're not. 

    So, Harridans are our most points efficient damage dealers and one of our most points efficient per wound units. If their other special rule actually goes off, then that's gravy. 

    This all begs the question, how should they be used? Even though they're very point efficient in a horde, their large bases and 1" reach makes me think that you'll end up losing some efficiency there. I've always had good luck surprising opponents with how much damage a unit of 10 can do, and I'm inclined to keep using them at that size. But I might look into including two units of 10 instead of one. There's far too many armies that ignore battleshock for me to run a Shrieker Host battalion, which is a shame, as that could be pretty interesting at this point. 

    What are your thoughts on Harridans? 

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    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    7 hours ago, Yeled said:

    I have a physical copy but was listening to The Honest Wargammer podcast review of the GHB 2020 and what they kept reporting off the digital copy was different than the physical copy I was looking at. It took me a while to figure out what was going on and realize they weren't just skipping things. Like they reported the Black Coach was unchanged pointswise, but my physical copy reports a 40 pt reduction.

    Is this issue known? Are people figuring this out? What gives?

    The Black Coach is unchanged from the digital winter points update, but changed since the last GHB.

    So it's the same points as what people have been playing lately, but it has an asterisk because this is the first time a hard copy has those points next to it. 

    So maybe that was the confusion?

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    16 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

    Considering the first look at a real book won't be until Saturday, and that digital downloads will be a huge deal for more reasons than just a cutoff date (covid), I'm willing to bet we'll see the battalions.

    If not, it's a simple matter to email them and ask for an official opinion and stance on Nighthaunt. That's been great for me to learn certain ways to play them that wasn't readily apparent with their lack of presence on the tournament scene. If enough people ask they'll address it.

    I hope you're right. Out of curiosity, what is something GW has cleared up for you when you have emailed them? I've never tried emailing them before. 

    2 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

    What about the battalions from the dual army boxes that had points but were made not legal after the GHB release (Carrion Empire, Looncurse, Feast Of Bones, Atherwar, Wrath & Rupture)

    it seems that gw don’t like ‘limited’ availability items being allowed in matched play due to some perceived belief that it’s ‘unfair’ or a disadvantage that not everyone can access it

    Just thinking about intent, these seem pretty different than White Dwarf battalions. The intent of starter set battalions is so that players can play against each other if they split the boxset. They're more of a toss in - people are buying that box for the models and the savings, not for the battalions. Meanwhile, people are specifically purchasing copies of White Dwarf magazine based on battalions. So it may make sense to ignore box set battalions, but it's sort of self defeating to negate White Dwarf battalions as that's literally a selling point for some of their issues. 

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted · Edited by dmorley21
    Can't type on my phone lol

    5 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

    At least the Mourngul went down a whooping 10 points.

    I'm interested to know how much cheaper everyone's lists are now? Most of my 2000 points lists are 30 points cheaper from 10 Hexwraiths and the GoS. So the same as a Stormcast Lord Exorcist who went down from 120 to 90. 😂

    1.5% cheaper army, I take it!

    My army dropped by 50 pts. It was 1970 before so I now have 80 pts to work with. 

    This is assuming Dolorous Guard remains and remains the same price. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    14 hours ago, Undeadly said:

    Don't worry; All the WD battalions arr still intact 

    That would be excellent, logical news. Do you have a source on this? 

    6 hours ago, Aaranis said:

    Well if we DO have to pick only from our own artifacts list all I'm encouraged to do is drop the army until they have a new Battletome honestly xD

    Missing Aetherquartz Brooch or something similar in an army that desperately wants Command Points is a major bummer. That being said, as others have mentioned, Nighthaunt artefacts are quite good. 

    Pendant of the Fell Wind can straight up win games. Midnight Tome is a really useful artefact. If you take a Guardian of Souls, they have some really good options with Wychlight Lantern being my favorite. And then there's some interesting melee artefacts. 

    Most times, you're only taking 1-3 artefacts. So while annoying not being able to reclaim a command point, it's not really going to ruin the army. I feel worse for armies that relied on Ethereal Amulet or Ghyrstrike.  

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    31 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

    I’b gutted if they got rid of Dolorous Guard. My tournament list (which is in fav a LoN last...) is built around that battalion. I converted 10 - ten - Dreadblade Harrows to make it happen... 

    Me too. I didn't convert Harrows but did by 2 kits of Hexwraiths and Lady Olynder. The battalion was a real game changer for me. 

    I appreciate the other points changes though. I ran a 2 units of Hexes, a unit of 10 Harridans, and a GoS; so it opened up a good deal of points for me. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    9 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

    If that were true, Grimghast Reapers would have an asterisk too as they started out at 360 points

      

    The Mourngul, like other Forgeworld stuff is in the Monstrous Arcanum section of the GHB that hasn't been leaked as of yet. But he's in there (and hopefully much much cheaper). Dolorous Guard and the other battalions not being in the Nighthaunt section therefore is quite telling. 

     

    4 minutes ago, Greasygeek said:

    Im pretty sure that the asterisk just means that points have been changed since the last GHB or bttletome. In case of the Blck Coach and some of the other mentioned units, they had their points changed about six month ago during the big FAQ thats realeased six month prior to the next GHB. However since none of these changes has been bookpublished they have the asterisk to let us know that something has happend since the last Ghb. Even though this is old news.

    Yeah, I was wrong here. This is what it means.

    As for the battalions, do other armies have their WD battalions in the GHBs? Another thing I thought of is those battalions came out after Cities of Sigmar, so they might be in the digital update. 

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    46 minutes ago, Spears said:

    Black coach, olynder and reiknor all have an asterix but haven't changed points. Any idea why?

    They are changes from the battletome. The asterisk represents when the points value are not what they are in the battletome. 

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

    in Order

    Posted

    On 3/19/2020 at 6:56 PM, nine7six said:

    How can you fly high in the hero phase with zilfin? It says normal move only for zilfin (run retreat, disengage) and the fly high rules says “instead of a normal move” which to me means you can’t use the special ability for fly high?

    On 3/19/2020 at 7:19 PM, Sttufe said:

    yea I agree to put it the other way would seem to be a bit cheaty, it is just says normal move, so technically it would be dropping the vortex in your hero phase by moving super fast with various endrinworks and the zilfin move in the hero phase ( just not flying high), and then use the jump-tastic powers of fly high to get the heck outta there with your kkhemist because he is a fairly good hero especially for only 90 points.

    On 3/19/2020 at 7:30 PM, Nightgaunt said:

    Honestly I read about it on another forum, perhaps that's what they were doing and I misunderstood? It seemed popular, I think they called it the 'Rat Trap.' I'm still quite new and haven't been able to play any games due to the current crisis, entirely possible I misread it all.

    ::Edit:: Looking at it again I think that's what they meant. Stick Khemist in Gunhauler with compartments, use 'Always a Breeze' combined with auto 6 run, use the bottle. Sorry, still learning all the rules.

    On 3/20/2020 at 3:24 AM, Beliman said:

    Are we 100% sure that the we can't High Fly with the Zilfin Footnote?

    The footnote give you the oportunity to make a "normal move" in the Hero Phase, and the warscrolls have an ability that instead of making a "normal move", you can just High Fly. 

    It seems a good interaction.

     

    This has been brought up quite a bit, and it seems that yes, you can use "Fly High" for Zilfin's Footnote. First off, even though it was brought up, it was never addressed in the FAQ/errata. Secondly, Warhammer TV posted a video where this occurs. It occurs late in the game IIRC - the link is posed below. Finally, there's been anecdotal evidence of players using the Fly High + Footnote at official Warhammer Heats.

    Given all of that, I'd think that Zilfin using their ability to Fly High during the hero phase and drop an Endless Spell is a legitimate strategy.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/540071772?filter=all&sort=time

     

     

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    Whats the 'Worst' Warscroll and why?

    in Age of Sigmar Discussions

    Posted

    The worst warscroll that I've ever used is easily Nighthaunt's Glaivewrath Stalkers. Two units were mandatory as part of a battalion I was running at the time.

    For 60 pts, you get a unit of 4 - 1 wound a piece. That's a strange unit size, but Myrmourn Banshees make it work by being very killy in the right circumstances and being able to unbind spells. Stalkers... move slowly, don't have any rend, and their attacks profile are outclassed by just about anything that is not a Chainrasp in the army. With a drummer they can retreat and charge, which juices up their attacks - to be still pretty bad. Bladegheists do the same thing but have a higher movement characteristic and actually hit hard. As a unit of 4 and the cheapest unit overall that Nighthaunt have access to, they can be a speed bump or a screen, but for 20 more points you get 6 more wounds by using Chainrasps.

    So, in essence, they're a bad unit that is then outclassed in every single way by another unit in the book. Oh, and they're not even batteline.

    • Like 2

    AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

    in Death

    Posted

    7 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

    Where does it say a named character can't use it? I've never heard this before.

     

    3 hours ago, Thamalys said:

    Me neither - Spectral Summons is a Command Ability listed under the "Battle Traits" section of the book. It's not a command trait, though, just a CA that your general gains on top of whatever CA they already have, hence I'd say it can be used by named characters as well. Having said that, I've always picked the Dreadblade Harrow as my NH general, so I never spent too much time worrying about this...

    Yep. So I've been handicapping myself! I had just always used the Harrow before Dolorous Guard and thought this was the case. So good to know!

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