Superninja

I believe there is more than a handful of new models that could be released for Ironjawz and still remain in the theme of the army. Though I would like to stay semi elite, I really wouldn't mind a cheap chaff unit (cheaper than gruntas/ardboys) like general greenskin orruks or even some kind of beast. Seems like there would be more beasts incorporated in the army since we come from Ghur. I would love a warmachine of some kind, a scout type, and the gore grunta heroes as you have proposed. I agree with the notion that they should/could be cunning. Or slap another thought in there like "fights dirty". Something. Just saying "all they do is x" is bland, especially when compared to other factions. Different cheap caster would be nice. I love the Fungoid, but wish we had an Ironjawz equivalent. The one we have seems to be a higher level caster who is deep in the dangerous Waagh! Magic that blasts those around him, while also having a fear of being alone. I feel with all the pokey bits coming off our armor we should do damage to the enemy when they attack us(or the chance to). Or at least have a figure that does that. I'd love to see a figure (beast?) covered in spike armor that is sent in as bait. Even if we do not get new models, I am hoping for a new battletome or a tweak of some kind.

@sambaker31 @1.5 points, I think I would drop the Ironfist. If you know he is going to hit your first, you probably don't need the extra movement. Bring in another set of Brutes or something. As the above post says, if the brutes can get on a dragon and get a Waagh/Frenzy of Violence buff, they could very well kill it. 2 sets of brutes or a 10 stack should bring it down for sure. Have you tried the 2" range weapons with the brutes/goregruntas? Attacking over the top of something is great and hitting a more important target is also great. The goregruntas is this case would need warchanter buffs. (If you get to go first) Use your rampaging destroyers movement on your Gore-gruntas and pin a unit of his back in his territory. Walk your army up the board, taking objectives hopefully. (assuming warchanter buffs on the gore-gruntas in this case) The Mawkrusha is nice for many reasons but is a lot of points. Because it has more Wounds than a footboss, it can last longer, especially with the right trait and artefact. Ignax's scales from Aqshy is a great one for the Mawkrusha. 4+ save vs mortal wounds. IF mortals aren't a problem, then I would use the Gryph-Feather charm from Ghur. -1 to be hit and +1 move. Combine that with Ironclad, the -1 to rend against you and he is quite hard to take down. Gordrakk can be great, but squishy. He can guarantee that all of our units get in, but again, very costly especially when taking a battalion too. (Still good though) Bloodtoofs is a good way to go if you really know what you want to do and how to do it. But with all those points spent on battalions and the Mawkrusha, there aren't many models/wounds left. However, as you said you could take first turn and try and alphastrike him first. (not guaranteed to get there w/o cogs and/or a proc or two from our rampaging destroyers.) If you absolutely know that you are getting alphastruck and he is absolutely going to kill units...bring an ardfist. Keep your warchanter back/hidden. Bring back the ardboys that he kills. Frenzy and Waaagh! OR ally in some cheap orruks (80 pts for 10) or some cheap grots(100 pts for 20/270 for 60) and have them stand in front/bubblewrap your ironjawz stuff. If you are playing your brother, you should be able to proxy what you need. That way you can try a lot of different stuff before buying it.

I am 3-1 since my post of doom. Thanks all for the pep talk and strats! Don't give up!

Just had a good game vs my Skaven buddy on Aqshy. Battle for the Pass was the battleplan. Pinned him back a bit with a unit of 6 Goregruntas with Gore-Hackas. Using the 2" Range to try and get to stuff behind the bubblewrap. Buffed them up with +2 to hit, +1 damage on weapons, +1 to wound/charge rolls, and Mystic Shield. Used my only proc of Mighty Destroyers and got them in first turn. Didn't do quite as much as I could of, but i think it won me the game. Missing the movement of Ironfist, but loving the extra models on the board. Love the realm spells. Gives us something to cast.

I intend to try Gorefist next, expanding on the idea of pinning. This is what I am thinking. (artefacts could be different) With the gorefist, should be able to pin a few units back, allowing the rest of the army to move up and take objectives etc. Brutes are really great for me. (as long as I have the other pieces too. just brutes hasn't gone that well) The brute boss alone is amazing.

@Banglesprout One of the main goals of the list was more models and wounds. (didn't want to go all out ardboy though) It was an 80 point hole to fill. One of my problems, previously, was my battleline outrunning my heroes most games. This usually puts them out of range of Look Out Sir and possibly other buffs. This particular thing didn't come into play as my opponent had no range. But the idea was that a small unit could hold an objective, be near heroes, and contribute to the fight with ranged. Originally, I had Ironskull's boys in that slot. I switched it out for the orruks for the ranged capability. Not taking Ironfist kept my army closer, obviously, so it wasn't as necessary as other times.

I finally won against the Slaves player. This time he used slaanesh. I finally pinned his chaos warriors in with gore-gruntas. Worked wonders. Blood and Glory I think was the scenario. (4 Objectives) We played in Shyish. (Unnatural Darkness is insane) Here is the list I took. So first thing I did was roll for Rampaging Destroyers, getting 1 success, giving the movement to 1 set of gore-gruntas. They moved straight toward the chaos warriors. I then cast unnatural darkness on that set of gore-gruntas(just in range) to give them -1 to be hit. Then the second spell from the fungoid who ate a mushroom, cast another shyish spell which allows a unit to ignore rend. I cast that on the other set of goregruntas. NO waagh first turn. The warchanters buffed up each set of gore-gruntas. The first set of gore-gruntas moved again toward the chaos warriors, ending about 7 inches away. (just made the charge). This pinned them back where they started. It actually took 2 rounds for the chaos warriors to kill these 3 goregruntas!! The other 3 gore-gruntas were in the middle of the board, got charged by his knights and eventually some marauders. The boss from this set of gore-gruntas ended up living till the end of the battle (unbelievable). He double turned me. He cast unnatural darkness on his knights giving them -1 to be hit. On his 2nd turn he retreated with the knights, but was able to pile back in with a 6 inch pile in. This allowed to move around the gore-gruntas and into the Fungoid behind. He moved up his manticore lord and got him into my gruntas. (this was the set of gruntas that was ignoring rend)(only mattered vs the manticore lord i think) The fungoid tanked 2 rounds of attacks from the knights and took no damage. My 2nd turn I moved up my ardboys and all the brutes and got all but one set of brutes into combat. Waagh'd twice and got 3 total attacks for almost the whole army. FOV twice on the ardboys, and one FOV on my Megaboss. (both of these charged his knights who were -1 to be hit) I cast unnatural darkness on my ardboys. I ended up taking out the knights, a set of maruaders, taking his manticore lord down to 1, and hurting another set of marauders. He won the roll off, taking the next turn. On his turn he had enough summoning points to summon 2 sets of daemonettes, trying to go for the objectives I had mostly moved away from. He moved his chaos warriors up and into my ardboys. Moved his other caster manticore toward an objective behind me. The ardboys were -1 to be hit still and the chaos warriors couldn't get much damage through. Overall, it wasn't enough. Shortly after he called it. I left with a feeling that he threw the game a bit...but he didn't admit that. Takeaways: Pinning the unit of chaos warriors made all the difference. No battalion was fine. It gave me more points on units. More Units felt great. There were always enough units around to succeed on Waagh, even from a footboss. This allowed for more board coverage as well. Having more units allowed me feel okay about possibly losing the grunta units quickly. I love the fungoid. I love the warboss. Missed having ballistas.

I know they are very different games, just throwing out an example. Just trying to say that I am not completely stupid. (usually) Again, thank you for the replies/help.

@broche If you take away my wins against new players and players that haven't fought ironjawz before, I am left with like 3 good wins. I do not claim to be good. I am still learning. I do believe the slaves to darkness player to be more experienced/possibly "better". I do not usually have this problem in tabletop games. I have always been able to 'git gud'. I know they are completely diffenent games, but in X-wing i was able to win several (small) tournaments.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NVM I FOUND IT. Thank you! We have been messing this re-roll thing up. Both my opponents have been messing it up. This should help me a little bit.

Thank you Broche, Banglesprout, and Malakree! WOW! I have to say that I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond. That alone has raised my spirits. I will take your words of wisdom and continue fighting. I just tried two units of 10 brutes last night for the first time. Typically run MSU. I found it meh, so far. The order of operation of the save rolls is something I think we have not been doing right. THANK YOU. The pinning of opponents units is something I need to get better at.

Long post. Please read, I need help! Guys I am getting frustrated and I need your help. I am not having much success with Ironjawz. I have probably 8-10 wins(i think its closer to 8 and at least double that in losses. My opponents so far are Stormcast 2 win (2k pts)/6-8losses (2k pts), Slaves to darkness(all flavors) 1 win at 1k pts/8-10 straight losses at 2k pts, Nighthaunt 1 win(new guy first game)/2 losses(2k pts), Idoneth Deepkin 1 win (1500 pts), Fyreslayers 1 win (1000pts/new guy 1st game), Tzeentch 2 wins(new guy/1st 2 games 1500pts/2k), Dispossessed 2wins/2-3 loss, Skaven 2k 1 win/4 loss. I have been trying all the builds as fast as I can. The only thing I don't have the models for is that full out gorefist list that has more than 12 goregruntas.( i have 12) (i haven't tried gorefist yet.) Basic build; 0-1 Cabbage and/or 0-2 Megaboss and/or 0-2 warboss, 1-2 Shaman (wierdnob/fungoid), 1-3 warchanters, 1 unit of 20-30 ardboys, 2-4 units of 5 brutes, 0-2 units of goregruntas. ironfist. Ironclad/Mirrored Cuirass/Aetherquartz/ Goldentoof/Boss Skewer (artefacts i usually choose from) I've tried weirdfist once, Gordrakk 3 times, bloodtoofs 5+ times, Ardfist 3 times, Ironfists 10 times, no battalion a few times, ballistas 5+ times. I've used fungoids (which I like) and weirdnobs 1/and 2 (which I don't like) (first successful foot of gork this weekend though!...didn't get the 4+ to stomp again...) I slaughter my friends that have just started. (Which also sucks since they are new...doesn't feel good for them and not really me either) I also slaughter someone who hasn't fought/seen ironjawz yet. This is due them only having only certain models, not fully knowing/remembering what I can do, not fully knowing/remembering what they can do etc. Once they have played me a couple times (and gotten more models) they realized that large units are necessary to stop smashing and bashing or at least it helps. (and one friend makes sure to tell everyone that) Problems so far: Large Units that are buffed up are extremely hard to remove (30 chaos warriors, with War shrine, re-roll save buff, fatesworn battalion save, etc.) Ranged units hurt. Celestar ballista placed behind me etc...wow. Skaven with their mortals. Hard to sit and defend when you are getting shot and we want to charge into melee anyway. Opponents reserve units that can drop anywhere make things quite difficult. Not much is available to stay and defend an objective when you are trying to get everything into melee. The more invested on defense means less punch when it gets there. Waagh range makes setting up feel like i want to be in just 2/3's of the map. Or just that spreading out seems bad. Actually getting enough of the army into melee at once and succeeding at the Waaagh! Keeping non cabbage heroes close enough to action to get look our sir, keep buffs on, get everyone in Waagh. Weirdnob has done more damage to me than opponents so far. Units tend to move/charge away from him, making it hard to keep his bonus which is one of the main points to bring him. 2 weirdnobs is madness for me. 10-20 regular orruks with bows kinda makes it feel better. Doesn't feel great though, feels expensive though it helps defend. Without bloodtoofs, drops are usually higher than opponents forcing me to go first. They usually set up so that I won't be able to reach them in that first round barring some lucky rolls on rampaging destroyers. So, typically I am heading toward them and then on their turn they can move/shoot/charge me. Teleport/drop/setup behind just makes this even more frustrating. Allies offer choice to fill holes, but you can typically only fill one type of hole. Cheap casters, Cheap ranged units, Cheap Chaff units, or Artillery. Lately, Gordrakk feels like the only option to reliably do what we need to do. Without him, it really feels difficult to get in with enough of the army at once. But he is so expensive in points that list building with him and a battalion leaves little option. Feels like I'll only play one list now for the most part. This is taking away my desire to play. This is making it feel like the money and time invested were wasted. It feels like my opponents have a lot of options and can leverage the options quite easily. While I have little options and have a hard time leveraging them. I feel like I am going up hill in the snow both ways while they are sledding downhill. I am contemplating downsizing or trading or selling my army outright. The new beasts of chaos look great! But I fear letting go of stuff and having new options come out for ironjawz in the near future. (per rumors) I love the way Ironjawz look but the playstyle and options may just be too limited. I just want to play and feel I have a chance in the game. HELP ME SEE THE LIGHT!

I intend to try the weirdfist again, but I basically agree with you. It is a lot of points for 1 trick that you may not succeed at or even try. I don't like the weirdnob. You can put another weirdnob in the weirdfist, just doesn't get any bonuses. I do like Gordrakk . He is expensive and and a bit squishy though.

Footboss is killier though, can take artefacts, has a better save, gives a roll for Rampaging Destroyers, and gives a chance at +2 attacks per command point. This is not me disagreeing with you. I just wanted to put the other side of the coin out there. I think I agree that the warboss is better. But I would like to see how others feel. I think one of the areas this is felt is the #of units that we normally need/want to take. We typically want at least 6 units near each other so that we can get a full Waagh off with our Footboss/Cabbage. This leads us in the direction of MSU (multiple small units), so that we may a good spread of hero units and battleline etc. Compounding the issue is that we want as many Brute bosses as we can get, since its a good source of -2 rend and having two different weapons in each hand allows the extra attacks to be on both. If all works out perfectly this can be devastating but can cause problems. I have found that large units of durable models that are buffed are quite hard to take off the board sometimes. (DUH) (30 block of chaos warriors (many flavors) have been wrecking me...chaos shrine, buffs from spells, etc.)(Making me feel like a 30 block of ardboys is necessary) The Warboss doesn't care about the # of units...it just happens with no chance of fail, which are both HUGE. (But no super +2 attacks per) So then you are more free to take larger units, allowing you to activate more models at once and upping the chance that you can smash and bash. Since he is on a boar, his movement is bananas and allows for him to be where ever he needs to be, which is hard for the footboss sometimes. The Great war banner is probably the key. The within 16" reroll 1's to wound is amazing and everyone can take advantage, not just the brutes like the footboss buff. Who gets the artefacts then? Typically this will leave them to our Warchanters or Weirdnob Shaman. (or the Cabbage, but if you are taking that, you may not be taking the footboss or the warboss.) What I don't like is that most of the items seem to be less effective on them (not the cabbage) because they aren't as 'badass' as the footboss or cabbage. Typically they are easier to kill since they have a worse save and less wound, but they do usually stay farther back from combat than footboss does. The better save, better attack, and the potential of our Footboss's Waagh to generate +2 attacks combined with the Aetherquartz brooch and/or Prophet of waagh are the main things that make me continue to think about it. But since I am leaning toward larger units the warboss is looking more and more attractive. The other main thing that gets in the way is wanting to ally in wizards and/or artillery. These things usually take the spot of the warboss since we can take the footboss. And the new 1 ally for every 4 units rule. I don't like that.

As far as artefacts: The boss skewer could still be great with Bloodtoofs. Further increases yours, while reducing theirs. Daubing of mork is still fine. From Hysh: Guardians Coronet could be good on a hero headed into melee. Lasts until your next hero phase. The Sash of Ten Paradises- +2 move on a footboss would allow him to keep up. Ghyran: Ghyrstrike:+1 to hit and wound rolls. On Footboss could be fun, I want to try it. Could also work on cabbage but you would switching out a defensive item. Jadewound Thorn: Adds a Mortal wound on a hit roll of 6+ . Not as good as SoJ, but it's still cool. Verdant Mantle: Dispel an endless spell as a wizard. Not bad since we may only have one shaman or none. Wand of Restoration: Heal 1 wound to a friendly model within 6". Healing a cabbage could be good and if he doesn't need it, those brutes or ardboys are even tougher. Hypersnare Seeds: Chance to stop a unit from charging. This could be great. Feels like Brutish Cunning and I think the 2 paired could be fun. Stop one unit from charging and then charge with one of yours in their turn. I'd like to try it. (I haven't tried Brutish Cunning yet, sigh.) Ghur: Amberglaive: Add 1" range and +1 to hit to one of your weapons. I really want to try this!! Put it on a footboss, and he can sit behind the ardboys or brutes and still hit something. Put it on a cabbage using a Choppa/Rip tooth fist, now it has a 2" range on the choppa. Put it on a cabbage using Boss Gore Hacka/Scrap-tooth, and you could have 3" range with the Gore-Hacka OR Both your weapons at 2" if you put it on the scrap tooth. I like the idea of this because IF you can clear out things that are 3" away, then you are clearing the way for another charge. Gryph-Feather Charm: -1 to attacks targeting bearer and +1 move. I like this one. On a footboss or cabbage.

Malakree it looks to me like you need more beef. The times I have tried bloodtoofs it has felt like I don't have enough bodies to go around. It also feels like you have to get things perfect i.e. get everything in at the same time with a big Waagh to boot. I would go with the options that give you more ardboys. I am leaning toward the warchanter, footboss, and 10 ardboys. The other option I like is the warchanter +20 more ardboys. The fifth option also looks good, warchanter, weirdnob, and 5 brutes.

Waagh! and Frenzy of violence only last until your combat phase.

@broche How do you work out the 4 points for effective life thing?

@Vasshpit One of the things about the brute boss with boss klaw and brute smasha is that when you get extra attacks, it is with BOTH weapons. Second thing is that the brute smasha is a source of -2 rend, which we often need. Warchanters are cheap way to get another leader to roll for rampaging destroyers, Frenzy of Violence can't be unbound because it isn't a spell, and when you add more attacks from a Waagh the +1 to hit goes a long way to helping those attacks land. Also a cheap way to have more units around for a waagh to go off. Ironjawz don't have a lot of reroll buffs. The megaboss on foot has reroll 1's to hit on brutes only within 5 inches...not a huge distance. The orruk warboss ally has I think a 16 inch reroll 1's to wound. So the warchanter, in a sense, is our reroll guy, except you just hit instead of rerolling. Not sure if he is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, but he is good and he helps us do what we like to do. (hit people more often).

@Hoseman Ironjawz are a bit unforgiving in my opinion. You either smash and bash their heads off or you lose pretty hard. Not much in between from my small experience so far. Our buffs are only in effect during our turn, so your timing on things have to be pretty spot on. You want to start the main fight on your turn. With that in mind, you either are trying to Alphastrike them with Gorefist/Gordrakk, Ironfist/Gordrakk, Bloodtoof/Ironfist/cogs, or beta strike them with Bloodtoofs/Ironfist/cogs, Ironfist/cogs, Ironfist, or a non battalion setup with max wounds/bodies. (the latter is the slowest) You do not need anymore weirdnob shaman in my opinion. I would pick up a Fungoid Cave Shaman (or 2) and possibly a Wurghog Prophet(or proxy). 1-2 sets more of Gore-Gruntas. Running them as a set of 6 is considered to be more effective depending on what you need. Sometimes you do want to run them as sets of 3, if you need more units for Waagh, etc. Mawkrusha is a must have and looks amazing. 1-3 more units of brutes. 2 seems to be the minimum. The brute boss is amazing. At least one more Warchanter, possibly more. Cheap points wise and super great. 10-20 more ardboys so you can have a unit of up to 30.

@Brakkus The list looks good. I haven't had a chance to try the Hag but she looks cool. One thing to keep in mind. One of the other big benefits to taking 2 battalions is that you can the take 2 more artefacts. Allies can't use artefacts....so you have lost out on that benefit. Boss skewer, Golden toof, aetherquartz brooch (from hysh) are all really solid.

gogogogogogo!!!

Man those akhelian guard are quite good looking at the warscroll. All the attacks at 3/3 is pretty nice. Ignore rend is insane as we know. 3 save after a charge, reroll charges, reroll battle shock...the only thing they dont have is rend. 14 inch move is nice too. Yeah thats a tough one. Keep your head up and keep on bashing!

I think your first list is a good place to start. You won't have a battalion, so you'll be slower and your 'drop count' will be higher, but you will have as many bodies/wounds that you can get and that will help when you Waaagh. Using all of the models you have feels good and will allow you to learn all their strengths, etc and allow you to remember their rules. You also won't have the 2nd artefact that the battalion would give. At 1k points thats ok. Ironskullz boyz won't benefit from the ironfist battalion, so I am unsure that particular list is the best way to go. Not having a wizard can hurt, especially if you know that other people will bring magic heavy lists/endless spells. You may not want to keep the ardboys and shaman too far from the Waagh, that way they get the benefit and give you a better chance to succeed the roll. Your brutes are likely to be the stars of the show, use the others to make this so.