Forrix
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Posts posted by Forrix
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Something that I find so weird about these endless discussions about priority rolls is that it is taken as a given that going first is a massive advantage that requires mitigation somehow.
In a nut shell, I almost always give away first turn to my opponent as there is an advantage in going 2nd and by going 2nd I will get access to the first double so its just a winning more scenario. Due to scenario scoring my opponent will typically move up onto objectives their first turn, cast some buffs and that's about it. Then on my turn they are in range for offense casting, shooting, and charging. The only notable exceptions to this are if they're playing a durable army with the ability to get onto objectives turn 1 in a scenario that they can quickly achieve an insurmountable points lead such as duality of death. Alpha strike armies are best answered with chaff and careful deployment in my experience though the double turn can be a nice though unnecessary buff when dealing with them.
The idea of going 1st being such a massive, game deciding advantage seems to come from 40k but there are big differences between the games. Namely, in 40k:
Shooting is MUCH higher ranged and more damaging in 40k than in AoS. In 40k 24" is a fairly short range shooting attack while in AoS that would be considered long range. 36" to 72" is the typical range of your more powerful guns in 40k. Armies are typically shooting focused too in 40k compared to AoS's melee focus (obviously there are armies that eschew this in both games but it generally holds up).
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21 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:
People talking like a 10 wound harvester is the most difficult thing to kill ever. The harvester only brings back models back if things die right next to it and a smart opponent then just focus the harvester. This happened in my last few games, it never made it to the end of the game, for example against a group of trolls, it got picked out by 3 rockgut while standing next to a mortek guard unit, they took it down in 1 go, while the Troggoth boss ate the mortek guard hekatos, auch!
Depends on the army. If your losing a Harvester to melee units you probably need to bubble wrap him better with Mortek Guard (and keep more Guard in range of his rez ability). I've been working on my MawTribes and CoS recently. With Mawtribes about the only chance in hell you have of killing a Harvester is with the Underguts/Tyrant Trophy Rack/Ironblaster spam list and that list presents its own issues. In Cities though, yeah, I don't think killing a Harvester is going to be difficult with things like Scourge Runner Chariots, Irondrakes, and Hallowheart spells.
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Oh lord, here we go again! My usual: Hate it, don't feel its necessary in AoS as more often than not there is no advantage in going first. Would require an edition change to eliminate due to Endless Spells and at least one scenario working off of player order.
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3 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
The HoS point is just not true though and that's my point. Most of the things people consider op are strategic problems, they have developed because most people don't play the game, they just unpack their selected layers of rules and abide by the results.
You don't deal with strategic problems by changing unit A for slightly more effecient Unit B.
Strategic problems mostly have to be dealt with tactically in the moment. Which means at a tournament you need the tools in your list to then use when you need them. What exactly those tools will be is determined by the faction at the operational stage.
Let's take Big Waagh for example. The problem isn't killing models, killing models is just one method of getting to objectives the most straight forward. The problem is getting where the OB player is stopping you from going with his models. Big Waagh don't have alternative deployment or really very much fly. But they do have high quality casters which unlocks Bridge and Purple Sun. The key is finding the thing that least negatively impacts your high level strategy.
So the reason HoS are so dominant internationally at high levels after a good 6 months of people being able to adapt to them is that all these tournament players are bad at the game?
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1 minute ago, whispersofblood said:
That's not really an accurate depiction though is it?
In casual play you tailor to your opponent, and in my experience from my own life and as a red shirt. Casual play is about the race in experience and translating that experience into choosing the right units to buy in the model arms race. So I would say in casual gaming the opponent that learns the fastest usually quickly dominates in their group. So much so that can end up with completely mediocre factions dominating inside play groups. Groups usually die when the players stop learning how to play the game and try to learn how to beat that guy. Which is obviously doomed to failure.
In tournament play if you aren't going to properly address your own structural weaknesses and respect that each faction presents a DIFFERENT problem for every match up in every scenerio then your aren't playing competitively really. The competitive mindset is about the process not the result. Which is why I didn't and still don't think HoS are a problem, the reasons they dominated were mostly meta-selection reasons not technical reasons like say DoK, or Grimghast spam.
While OB durability might feel different, as in a "negative play experience" then say extreme msu builds, the objective is the same deny your opponent the freedom of the board.
I mean, if your okay with 1/2 to 3/4 of battletomes being unplayable then I suppose it's okay. A good part of the reason HoS is so good is a decent chunk of battletomes just dont have the tools available to solve the problem they represent and people dont want to jump ship due to aesthetic/gameplay/hobbying/money reasons.
Negative play experiences are inherently subjective so that's just me. With MSU builds you at least have the option to remove them from an objective and they get weaker in the scenarios with only 2 to 3 objectives.
Most local tournament players I know like to pick a faction based mostly on aesthetics and lore with some focus on the gameplay. They then see what they can accomplish with that faction. They dont expect to go 5-0 in a GT but they want to feel like they have a shot in most of the games they play. When players get curb stomped in 90% of the games they play seemingly regardless of army build or tactics they either quit or change armies. In AoS 2.0 our local scene has had all our Kharadron Overlord or Nighthaunt players either quit the game or switch armies. Bonereapers have been super popular and I'm expecting them to drive out the melee armies from our tournament scene. The casual scene might be different as our Bonereaper players share the opinion that the book is crazy overpowered and of course, want people to actually want to play against them. So I think there will be less Petrifix Elite/Harvester/Mortek Guard spam in the future.
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41 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:
But they don't.
Editing since you expanded your statement. In any game dice rolls play a big part and I'm sure I could have made some better choices. I'm also sure my opponent wasn't an world class tournament player and a 10 man 3+ rerolling, 6++ unit battleshock immune unit that can regain 3 models a turn and get pumped up to high damage dealing levels easily is well above average at guarding backfield objectives.
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58 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
One of the interesting affects of having so many factions is that sometimes people's armies are just good at certain operational schemes accidentally
It's so interesting when a game is decided at scenario selection. You dont even have to waste time trying to play it!
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50 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
Highlights the importance of maneuver, and the power of fly and alternative deployment.
Such an army is designed to dominate the board by making putting a line you can't move through. One of the interesting affects of having so many factions is that sometimes people's armies are just good at certain operational schemes accidentally.
In this case OB dominate the board such an oppressive manner accidentally that even the strongest factions have to take account of it.
2 months ago no one would have thought that a properly constructed Keeper would struggle to dominate the board (spacing wise) against at least 5 factions.
Got to say I love this game.
Gotta say I hate this to the point I'm thinking of quitting. Maneuvering doesnt matter when their 130 point battle line beats your 400 point tricked out killing machine let alone any chaff or objective runners.
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2 hours ago, Sedraxis said:
Seems pretty solid once you get in position, but how will you reach the objectives before your opponent blocks you? 9 drops is too much for first turn and with roughly 4-7 RD per battle-round there aren't a lot of buffs to go around.
I'm having trouble building a reliable list without giving up some of the goodies, leaning towards 2 battalions to keep the drops low.
I'm really curious to see more lists, especially those that can show how OP the army supposedly is cuz I really don't see the issue.
The issue I had in my game vs them as Maw Tribes is they were invincible and killed anything that touched them.
More specifically, he had a blob of 40 Mortek guard with a Harvester that moved forward onto one of my objectives (4 in the game) and screened a good portion of the board. I had no way of getting to the Harvester and thus no way of damaging the unit as a 3+, 3+, 6++, 4++ and rezzing 3 models in his hero phase rendered it immortal.
His objectives were guarded each by a 10 man unit of Mortek Guard. Moved my FloSH against one but could never kill it and the Mortek guard eventually killed the Frost Lord. I did manage to score some points though thanks to the Frost Lord counting as 10 models and killing 1 or 2 Mortek Guard per turn.
Against the other objective I sent 4 Leadbelchers and a Tyrant and was eventually able to take it after 3 turns thanks to a lucky roll on my Tyrants' Hammer. He then died to the Mortek Crawler though that was mostly due to horrible dice rolling on my part.
I dont think the whole bonereapers battletome is broken but Petrifix Elite Mortek Guard especially with strong magical support (Arkhan) and Harvesters are an absolute Nightmare for some battletomes to face and bring new meaning to "Negative Play Experience".
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6 hours ago, schwabbele said:
are there any good third party models for the phoenix guard? I am kinda hesitant because their kit looks really old although they are plastic.
Have you seen them in person? They're a very good kit. Kinda static like a lot of the stuff made for old Fantasy infantry blocks but otherwise excellent.
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2 hours ago, Sedraxis said:
The answer is no, they're not hilariously overpowered. They're pretty good, along the lines of most recent tomes like Mawtribes, Orruks, Cities of Sigmar.
Bonereapers have multiple ways to build a competitive list a well as plenty of options for a more friendly approach, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Currently Slaanesh is the only real outlier in terms of power, maybe Skaven is up there too but with the FAQ supposedly bringing them down a bit we're in for a pretty fair environment. Assuming they don't mess up the next couple of tomes.
You're out of your mind if you think they're in the same bracket as Mawtribes. PE is the most insane thing I've ever played against in wargaming.
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3 hours ago, Sauriv said:
Don't you think Gruesome Trophy Rack would be a good idea? Giving himself and nearby gutbusters +1 to hit against heroes and monsters.
Because of his many weapon profiles it sounds quite tempting😊
Combined with the Giantbreaker makes him a good monster killer
I'd go brawlerguts over Giantbreaker for more consistency and a wider range of targets. The issue is that the artifacts that are suppose to boost his damage are inferior to the general AoE buff artifact when it comes to the damage he himself puts out. The reroll hit/wound command trait is good but far to specific to every be worth taking in an all comers list.
Edit: I don't think he meant the Beastriders, Huskard, and Thundertusks were overcosted by just 20 points. Stonehorn beastriders are good enough I want to actually try them out before judging but the Thundertusks (all versions) could easily be dropped by a 100 points or more.
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On 11/21/2019 at 10:16 AM, Mutton said:
I think most of us can agree the Beastriders, Huskards, and all Thundertusks are pretty heftily overcosted. And after quite a few games I still say the Tyrant and regular Butcher are 20 points too expensive as well.
I've played a couple games with the Tyrant and found him to be super swingy. His hammer can be nasty when it actually connects. I wish he had an artifact that boosted both of his weapons. I feel like he's got a good attack profile but its split between the Hammer and the Spear and their respective artifacts wind up feeling lackluster since they only buff half of his weapons.
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14 minutes ago, Zadolix said:
Just ordered myself a loonshrine. How do you guys transport yours? Do parts like the cages break off it easily?
I magnetized mine, haven't had any issues with the cages or anything. I will say the thing is massive enough it takes up a lot of room in my carrying case.
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14 hours ago, Rune said:
Buffed with warding brand they have two times 50% chance for dealing mortal wounds when they die. I'm thinking use the Soulscream bridge and just get them right in there.
They only do a mortal wound (from their warscroll ability) when they flee. Still, haven't given much thought to Warding Brand but it seems quite good on cheap melee guys now that I think of it.
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Got my Anvilgard start collecting boxes in...Its been mentioned but I just didn't realize how big their base is. The thing is the same bloody base as the Stonehorn, 120mm oval. I the footprint of a unit of 3 is massive, possibly the biggest per point spent in the game. It makes me want to run a bunch even more for the lolz.
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My poor wallet.... That said, I consider 3 an auto-include in the lists I've been building. If anyone has that many chariots please run it lol. I'm curious to hear how it does.
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18 hours ago, Charleston said:
I hope it´s ok I pick this topic up in this thread Forrix
Beastsclaws are in a general weird spot right now. We have 3 Thundertusks:
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Frost Lord on TT
- Actually a dead pick in my eyes. Close Combat Hero on a Mount that is lackluster in Meele. The SH is better in every way here. The lack of synnergy actually weakens this unit. I mean, it is bad internal balance within a unit~
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Husskard on TT
- The better version. A Support Hero on a ranged Mount. With a Vulture and the Blizzard Spell the Husskard is actually a good Pick from what I see reading the rules. The price is okay, the support welcome and he can still be used for the charge bonus. Having +1 to prayers for other Husskards makes it even conciderable to take two of them to buff another.
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Beastriders on TT
- The weird pick. They are an actually okay battleline if you can use the Blast-Ability. They can be used to follow a Husskard for the +1 or to hold objectives in the back. Lack a mount trait but are overall a the shooty pick. Can be cool to ride along a Husskard.
The FL is a dead pick, the Husskard is great, the Beastriders are...well, they are there. Mine were okay when I used them. The Thundertusk is just slow, lacks protection from magic and shooting, suffers more from degrading stats and his unique ability is really just fishing for that lucky sixes, without any chance for a reroll. You can still use this ability to go for heroes, but is simply is not reliable. I still belive having 2 of thoose attacks and some vultures may kill a hero in a round. Also, as they rather suffer from meele than benefit from it like Leadbelchers or Ironblaster do, there is the conflict of charging with them or not for the cause of impact damage.
Meanwhile, SH offers:
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Frost Lord on SH
- Meele Hero + Mount that increases meele damage, is fast and gives him a 5++. Awesome.
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Husskard on SH
- The Battalion enabler, has an awesome CA to buff mournfangs, which will have 4 D3 attacks on charge per model, has still an SH worth of Damage and a 5++. The riders meele skills are a shame as gw forgot to update them but the chance for a vulture is nice.
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Beastriders on SH
- Second PArt of the Battalion enablers, get again an SH in meele which makes them only slight worse than a Husskard. Lack Mount traits which is a shame but can bring at least 2 ranged guns and thus, a vulture.
So yeah, all SH Units are awesome and fast. As they want to be in meele they also benefit greatly from any kind of impact damage. Husskards allows really to let Mournfangs shine and the two battalions thoose guys get are also fine. Especially the one for even more Mortal Wounds.
Nevertheless, while I love the changes to Gutbusters, I really wished for more love on the BCR Profiles. I don´t get while thoose guys punch and kick only for 1D. Also the Thundertusk Frostlord should have gained another ability that supports a backline character, maybe a reroll to hit or a defensive buff?
The Huskard on TT is what I'd run I'm just iffy on the point cost not a bad unit just feels like 340 is a lot. I'm tempted to take Keening Gale on him for an alpha(ish) striking FrostLord on Stonehorn (18 move in Boulderhead). I'll point out that I think a FrostLord on TT (with the enemy strikes last mount trait) is actually legit just stupidly overcosted at only 10 points less than him on a Stonehorn.
The Punches and Kicks are weird. I figured they would streamline the mount profiles like they did in Orruk Warclans with Riders having a single attack profile and the mount having a single attack profile but nope...
Just a better command ability on the Frostlord in general would help a lot. As it is the generic reroll charges ability is almost always better. Even a bubble of +1 charge would have been better.
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Frost Lord on TT
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3 minutes ago, Charleston said:
The Nexus is basically a Priest with 4 different Spells to choose from, a huge range, beeing unkillable. Quite a lot value here compared to IDK or similar terrain. The biggest letdown is how gw design failed to match fluff and rules from what I see. Nevertheless I would love to add such a thing into any of my armies.
It is interesting to know they have no reroll against shooting, I belive we played this part wrong in our last game. Against bigger Blobbs Thundertusks may be a blessing.
About the leaders: Does it really help to kill thoose? I mean, they can use Relentless Tactics thingies freely without a hero, having a hekators nearby
I'm on the fence about Thundertusks. If they were just a little cheaper or had a 6" bubble of -1hit instead of just themselves being -1 then I think I'd take one or two. I've got one sitting on a shelf so I might give him a spin just to see. They do run into an issue of really just being good against big blobs so they're not that great against in all comers list (that's really a MawTribes issue more than an OBR though, Beastclaw Raiders are just so poor outside of the Frost Lord).
For the Leaders, yeah, since they get one RD point per leader each round (and two for a Liege Kavalos) and d3 from that spell. Kill the leaders and they're looking at 1 RD point per battalion (likely 1) and then fishing for 6s for the rest of their units. Not to mention you'd shut off Drain Vitality and Empower Nadirite Weapons and any endless spells (once they're dispelled).
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Got out an played a game against Bonereapers (Petrifix Elite) and talked with three Bonereaper players about them. Definetly the most absurd game I've ever played in AOS (me playing as MawTribes). Main take aways:
Relentless Discipline points are easy to come by and not at all a scare resource. 7 to 10 seemed the normal range to generate per battleround. This is a major deal for my next two points:
The reroll saves on Mortek Guard is crazy good (as expected). Coupled with the rez 3 models ability from Arkhan there wasn't a feasible way for me to put a dent in these units. He had a harvester escorting his 40 man block around though I honestly think that's probably overkill. I had a Frostlord on Stonehorn fail to kill and die to a 10 man Mortek Guard unit over 3 turns (on the Mawtribes front, the counts as 10 models is great and he scored me several points despite getting killed by a 130 point unit) . He had 3 Mortek guard units (1x 40man and 2x 10 man) and took the battalion that lets one unit reroll for free. Between this and the Relentless Discipline generation he had all 3 units rerolling saves for every combat in the game.
The unexpected thing for me as the Rend Command ability. I hadn't thought about it much but it really ups their damage and is readily available thanks to mass RD points. Coupled with an endless spell giving +1 hit, a spell for exploding on 5s, and an artifact for +1 attack these guys were absolute blenders in addition to being super tanks. I expected them to be hard as nails but I wasn't expecting the damage output. He was typically using this on one unit per turn.
The Nexus.... kept the -1 cast/unbind on my butcher all game. Coupled with Arkhan it meant I didn't really have spell casting and I couldn't do anything against his. He was using a spell to gain d3 RD points too (feeds into above).
Mobility: Definitely not a weakness like some like to bring up on this forum. Not a strength either really but the ability to gain +3 movement and still run makes up for the lack of auto run 6. A 40 man Mortek guard unit has a large footprint and 10 man guard units are strong enough to guard objectives from most chaff units (or you know...Frost Lords on Stonehorns….). Also, a lot of scenarios only have 2 to 4 objectives...
That all said I did notice some weaknesses.
Shooting. No rerolls against shooting meant my leadbelchers shooting attacks were doing more damage than anything else in my army. Likewise mortal wounds really hurt these guys but you better be Hallowheart if you're relying on spells from them due to Arkhan's unbinds and the Nexus.
The leaders: A lot of the craziness came from the RD points and support spells/abilities from the heroes. IF you can kill them I could see the army crumbling though base 3+ saves on units and battleshock immunity might still let them hold objectives for awhile. Telling people to just "Kill the heroes stupid" isn't really helpful advice when so many armies have such weak shooting and the heroes all sitting behind a wall of Mortek Guard.
TLDR: A tuned Petrifix Elite army seems like the very definition of a Skew list. I can see them being beat by very specific counter builds that use lots of chaff and strong shooting (cough cough CoS or Hallowheart magic lists that will laugh at the Nexus and Arkhan's unbinds). But general "all comers" lists are going to fail hard and some entire battletomes are just not going to be capable of doing anything. I specifically say "tuned Petrifix Elite list" since outside of that subfaction the army seems substantially weaker which I suppose is a good thing for Bonereapers players seeking friendly games.
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I'm probably going to do an Anvilgard list with an Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix with the 5+ FNP artifact and Gotrek for the lolz sometime. I could see it being crazy good on Duality of Death too.
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How do these rules interact? Or more the point, is Vitrolic Spray considered a modifier for the purpose of Ethereal?
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On 11/10/2019 at 6:32 PM, Aelfric said:
My question is; has anyone considered or used a Flamespyre Phoenix with the Drakescale Cloak. On paper, it seems pretty tanky with the threat of it coming back to life when it dies - any thoughts much appreciated.
I hadn't thought of that but I believe those buffs would stack. That would be comically tanky. I'd be tempted to take the Frost Heart Phoenix for the extra damage and Blizzard Aura. The resurrection might be wasted since it probably would never die once and I hate single all important dice rolls.
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There was a rumor a while ago that said Gutbusters would get an overhaul and be made bigger with armies consisting of about 15ish models with units consisting of 1 to 3 models. Obviously debunked for Ogors but maybe what someone saw were prototypes for a new giant army? An entire army of either single model units or up to 3 models per unit would be elite to an extent surpassing Ogors (normally about 30ish if running Gutbuster heavy) without having to rely on mounted units and not running into the design issues that would arise from having an army with only 3 to 6 units.
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New collector - Anvilgard and Fyreslayers
in Order
Posted
GW has a strange obsession with Stormcast. I'm pretty sure regional managers beat store owners who don't push them to every customer that walks in the door. Ally wise I think both will work well enough for regular games though Fyreslayers have a specific Mercenary Company you can bring.