[The great big Generals Handbook 2019 Discussion Topic]

19 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

leaked DoK points 

 

Reminder about the leak rules here...

[The great big Generals Handbook 2019 Discussion Topic]

10 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

(All this is based on the blurry NH page picture that's been circulated)

With these points changes I sincerely hope they are going to 3 month updates. Nighthaunt got basically nothing and are still as terrible as ever. And our one good unit got bumped, not because it's an allstar in NH, but because of Legions of Nagash. Mourngul down 20 points? What a joke. GW are you really trying to tell me a Mounrgul is better than a Verminlord Warpseer?

20 points at a time is good if they are going to do this every 3 months. If they do 6 months or yearly they need to do more steep drops. Because every new army is literally destroying old armies that weren't broken from the get go (DoK). And that leads me to believe they are just doing power creep on purpose to sell more stuff and force people to do new armies or be left in the dust.

I haven't seen it yet; but I'm not sure what your really asking for. Would you rather Grimghasts still be fairly broken in LoN? I think GW sees the problem with both FEC and Skaven, seeing as they directly stated they are giving us a point update. Perhaps a year or two I'd be as pessimistic, but I feel if they can give both those armies a point increase, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. Slaanesh nor Fyreslayers are inherently broken; Slaanesh especially begins to loose power once you start plinking wounds off of their KoS, screening their hordes and debuffing them with -1 to hit.

 

Side note: very interested in seeing that they'll be putting actual new warscrolls in the book, with the Phoenix temple units. That opens a lot of doors for revised or entirely new units.

 

 

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

So with the GHB, ya'll have any predictions about some units? And viability incase some points go up and down? If Glaivewraiths were brought down to 40, and Harridans to maybe 70 or 60, I think they could really be good. 160 points for 16 unrendable wounds is pretty decent, and I think they could be a better screen unit than Chainrasps.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

Still waiting on a FAQ for Forbidden Power; although, question: As a Nighthaunt player, is Forbidden Powers worth as a pure Nighthaunt player, not necessarily a LoG player?

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

1 hour ago, Blackmaniac said:

Can one of you wise folks help me “unlock” Nighthaunts?  I have about 10 games under my belt at this point (having built up from the Soulwars box set)...and I have yet to hit upon the right Stratagem to make things really work.  Our group is relatively new and we have really not branched out into objectives and stuck to playing “First Blood”.  My regular opponents are DoK and Ironjawz.  My games so far have boiled down to: rush the center, hope the dice are favorable and the recursion is enough to whittle down the enemy numbers.  I have tried horde style with all the chainrasps and spirit hosts with only two heroes, and I have also tried support bloat with 4 heroes and a medium but heavily buffed battle line. Our heroes seem kind of squishy so they have not spent much time on the front lines.  I’m starting to get the sense that this is not how Nighthaunts want to approach the game....  As for the models I have to choose from:

Heroes:  Reiknor, Lady Olynder, GoS, KoS, SoT, Executioner, a vampire lord (winged).

battleline: 50 chainrasps, 10 reapers, 4 stalkers, 9 spirit hosts, 4 banshees

other: 2 Mourngul, Black coach (purchased before I realized we might be staying at 1000pts)

We play at the 1000 point level.  I have had the most luck with Lady Olynder and the chaingaurd battalion (for the extra CP), but otherwise I’m getting my bread buttered!  Any suggestions or direction you could point me in would be fantastic.  

Well, for starters, start using Objectives! They radically change the feel of the game, and can give even the weakest armies a chance at winning.

 

And here's another tip; Nighthaunt can do really well if you use minimum sized units, You may not get the horde discount, but you do get more chances of a WoT.

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

Alright, I have an idea that I kinda need some further input on, but how do we feel about MSU? Because I feel like there might be something to it, and how it having lots of smaller units might actually be better.

In favor of MSU:

1) Your rolling more dice for charges, meaning more chances for Wave of Terror.

2) More Drops means more units that can deepstrike; leave the 10 man Chainrasps on the board, so you can deep strikr scarier stuff in.

3) Easier to keep units wholly within the aura range of our Heros. And since its auras and not Command Abilities, you don't need to worry about buffing one specific unit.

4) Nighthaunt saves are unpredictable; the enemy will have to gamble with their attack splitting, hoping that they'll have enough to kill one unit without leaving another one alive.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

Forbidden power is up now in Warscroll builder! May the list speculation begin! Here is a more all comers list, built around using Skeletons and Grimghasts to pin down the enemy, while Bravery debuffs are casted. Some subsitutions could be for a Corpse Cart instead of a second banshee, or more Harridans,

Allegiance: Death
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Dreadblade Harrow (100)
- General
- Trait: Tragic Emanations 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Spell: Shroud of Terror
Necromancer (110)
- Spell: Dread Withering
Tomb Banshee (80)
Tomb Banshee (80)

Battleline
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades

Units
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
2 x Morghast Archai (220)
- Spirit Halberds
5 x Dreadscythe Harridans (90)

Behemoths
Mortis Engine (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Horrorghast (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

5 minutes ago, ledha said:

I agree. Consistently point drop of everything that isn't good is the road to powercreep

Key word is consistently; I personally think pure Nighthaunt needs a lot of work, both unit and allegiance wise, so as to form a cohesive army that works as an actual army, but until then, I'll take some point drops to ensure that we can stay competative and play the army of our choice until the update. Legion of Grief feels like another whack at Nighthaunt rule wise, with Endless spells that make sense with Nighthaunt, Terrain that heavily benefits us, and a allegiance that actually plays to Nighthaunts strengths, rather than an allegiance that hopes we roll high. Sure, we loose some speed, but we still have Gravesite deep strikes from our Dreadblades,  and no less than 2 new Endless Spells designed specifically to help movement, and 2 more designed to do bravery debuffs.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

6 minutes ago, Equinox said:

The issue with reducing points is that you create "model" creep with armies.  I would prefer GW raise the cost of the major offenders instead of just making the poor stuff cheaper.  In a 2000 point list, someone like Lady Olyander or Kurdoss should have a cost appropriate to their stature in an army.  By lowering their points, it sends the message that GW knows the model is not comparable to something else at the same cost, but that they are going to fix the problem by punishing players by them needing to buy more toys to fill the "free" space left by the point reduction.  Granted it could be argued raising points is a form of punishment as well, but the key difference is that a point raise doesn't require a player to buy more models.  A point reduction does unless they want to be handicapped in a different fashion.  

Well, the solution is to make models more powerful, but the problem with changing unit rules too much means that suddenly, that rulebook you own is worthless, and that you need to carry around and remember all the errata for your book. The ideal is you need neither, because the book is good from the start, but that rarely happens, nor can it stay that good in a shifting meta.

The best situation is that the units get cheaper in the GHB, but when the book comes out, they get a buff and a points hike. Nighthaunt is a newer book, but as a death player, I'm fine with lots of models, so a decent price drop would be fine with me.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

1 hour ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Really? Is that a new development? I' gotten the impression the opposite was true.

But I DO live under a rock, so...

Problem is, Nighthaunt are kind of a gambling faction. Sometimes, you roll perfect 10's for charging and roll nothing but 4's for saves, and Nighthaunt seem OP as hell. Other times, the inverse is true, and we get our ethereal butts kicked.

[AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion]

Hey ya'll, little Undead sproutling here coming from Nighthaunt to Sylvaneth. Following a Start Collecting, Looncurse, and a cheap nabbing of Drycha and some Tree Revenants, I've started growing my own little forest of hate. Now, I'm wondering how should I bring it up to 2000 points?

Right now, I have

Drycha

Durthu

Branchwych

Arch-Revenant

3 Kurnoths with Scythes

16 Dryads

10 Tree Revenants

5 Spite revenants

 

I'm debating on whether I should buy another Start Collecting, or just pick up another box of Dryads.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

Anybody else feel like Forbidden Power was made for Nighthaunt? Besides the awesome Legion of Grief rules, the Endless spells are perfect for Nighthaunt, and the Terrain piece is incredible for Nighthaunt (CP gain or Re-roll saves of 1). This seems like the expansion that Nighthaunt deserves.

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

By the way, noting the Bridge Endless Spell, that is actually a pretty decent way to get Tomb Banshees into a more effective area, since in LoG, they have to float everywhere.

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

12 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

The thing is if I am to run 40 man skeleton blob anyway, I might as well go with the old legions as LoG is the weakest otherwise. Sacrement is better at casting, nagash himself is a beast in his grand host and legion of blood has the exact same rules except more attacks for vampires, twice the traits and artifacts and access to VloZD. Not to mention all have far more spell options and locus of shyish. 

I guess my point is that this legion is rather disappointing and good for nothing else than using ghosts a bit differently. The legion is by far the worst for any other type of unit to be in. 

Execpt its explicitly not; Legion of Grief's spells are honestly far better than the majority of the Lore of the Vampires; Giving -d3 bravery or another point of rend can be huge for some units, especially with things like Skeletons.

 

In fact, Skeletons are probably the best battleline choice for LoG, since they have a banner for more bravery shenanigans, have the better buffer in the form of a Wight King, and are really good canidate for buffs. With the rend spell, and Lady Olynder's spell, you have a unit that's 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, with 5 Rend -1 attacks a model. There is literally no unit in the game that can match that level of killyness. And wouldn't you know it, Lady Olynder can cast two spells, and now has access to both a Corpse Cart and Mortis Engine to boost her spells.

Black Knights and Morghasts also really shine, as they are fast and killy -2 Bravery at any time, and don't get much else from the other legions. And lets not forget that with Dreadblades, you can essentially guarantee a gravesite deepstrike where ever you please.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

18 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

So, out of curiosity, what are people thinking they're going to be running in their Legion of Grief armies?  I know this depends fairly heavily on the answer to the battalion question (which my own feeling will be yes).  I may have picked up a couple of boxes of Bladegheist...

Probably a lot of Mortis Engines; I ran quite a few of them back in my old Legions of Nagash Army, and they never let me down. Now with some really solid bravery debuffs, I feel not only is the Mortis Engine a really good support piece, but also pretty deadly weapon as well. Only question is, how many Mortis Engines do I bring? Other notable things I might use are Crypt Flayers(thanks mercenaries!) Tomb Banshees, Morghasts and, as you said, Bladegeists. Mortarchs hit hard and are not only fast, but confer another -1 Bravery, and Bladegheist are really just awesome for what they do in LoG.

 

Also, anybody else kinda curious on what heavy CP army might be like in this army? I know we lack the Vampire Lord, but with Kurdoss, the 5+ Command Point regen and Aetherquartz, you can really rack up Command points, and from there, the Command Ability lets you resurect lots of units, and when combined with the speed of a few Dreadblades, I feel like the enemy would be hard pressed to stop a rush of never ending Grimghasts/Harridans/Bladegeists while possibly hurting for CP themselves. Use Reiknor and a Mortis Engine to set up cogs, then drop in your troops all around the battlefield, and resurrecting them when needed. 

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

4 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

So, out of curiosity, what are people thinking they're going to be running in their Legion of Grief armies?  I know this depends fairly heavily on the answer to the battalion question (which my own feeling will be yes).  I may have picked up a couple of boxes of Bladegheist...

Probably a lot of Mortis Engines; I ran quite a few of them back in my old Legions of Nagash Army, and they never let me down. Now with some really solid bravery debuffs, I feel not only is the Mortis Engine a really good support piece, but also pretty deadly weapon as well. Only question is, how many Mortis Engines do I bring? Other notable things I might use are Crypt Flayers(thanks mercenaries!) Tomb Banshees, Morghasts and, as you said, Bladegeists. Mortarchs hit hard and are not only fast, but confer another -1 Bravery, and Bladegheist are really just awesome for what they do in LoG.

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

2 hours ago, Rhellion said:

I got 4th out of ~60 players this weekend with this list. Missed Best Death due to 1st and 2nd place being FeC. I beat Skaven, DoK, KO, BoC, and lost to the 2nd FeC by 1 point (but beat them 1700 to 1380 on kill points).

 

Reiknor, soul cage
Guardian of Souls, mortality glass, shademist
Dreadblade Harrow, general, tome, soul cage
40 Chainrasps
10 Chainrasps
10 Chainrasps
10 Chainrasps
30 Grimghast Reapers
20 Bladeghiest Revenants
20 Bladeghiest Revenants
Cogs
 

What were the 3 ten man units of Rasps for? Objective holding?

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

5 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Seems like a nightmare (pun) to move that many models

Honestly, since I'd been deep striking stuff around so quickly, there wouldn't be much moving, only setting up units up proper.

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

@Undeadly40 man units of chainrasps does not sit well with me, I tihnk it will be near impossible to maximise their use with only 1" range on their attacks. If you reconsider battalions this would fit so well as a condemned battalion.

My suggestion is to cut the units down to max 30 man units, this pays for the battalion and now all the chainghasts reroll to hit near your torment and ghasts. You can also then use the artifact to give the dreadblade or torment the midnight tome, possibly taking shademist would could make any unit much tankier. The added command point will also be useful for the charges, or keeping the rasps around if they start taking a lot of fire.

Thats just my 2c though.

 

I see your reasoning, but my problem is that the Condemned is a bit too pricey for what it gets you. For 150 points, that's pretty expensive for a buff thats entirely made for Chainrasps who will mostly be dropping in to clog up the enemy so that my deadlier units are the ones. The command point and extra artifact would be handy, but thats 150 points of models that I'm not taking.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Banners from deathrattle units also provide -1 bravery, so sprinkle that in as well.. Anything that does not absolutely overwhelm the entire castle will just disappear the following turn, jeez. It will probably lose the objective game though, a wise opponent will just stay well away  the maximum 9" of the aura.

Keep in mind, Mortis Engines have a pretty speedy movement of 14"; if he keeps moving, out of range, than I think an appropriate risk would be for the Mortis Engine and your heros to fly over the chaff and go for after them.

And depnding on certain missions, avoiding a giant bubble of doom is easier said tham done for a lot of armies; another factor to remember is how cheap Mortis Ejgines are. At only 180 points per engine, while taking up a pretty hefty proportion of your points, that still only comes up to 720 total before heros.  Thats still over half of your points that can go into more mobile units capable of taking the fight else where or defending. A block of Grimghasts or Bladegiests can easily slot into this army, and provide a sticky horde where needed.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

7 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Do the casting buff stack? Because with 4d3 mortal wounds and +4 to cast this is a scary castle.

The casting may not stack, but the Mortal Wound bubble does; and even better, the Reliquary ability can heal other Mortis Engines and Heros, while also damaging the enemy. Properly set up, you can do a almost guranteed 8d3 MW, plus how ever many mortal wounds your Banshees do.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

Guys. Guys. Stay with me here. 

4 Mortis Engines. Reiknors and Banshees in the middle, flanked by Morghasts, with a KoS/Dreadblade in the middle, bubble wrapped by Dire Wolves. 

Welcome to the Mortis Castle.

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

So this is a bit of a weird list, but one that I think has a lot of potential as an army. For starters, there are a few weird things about it, but overall, it's designed to essentially lock down the enemy, and than maneuver around them before going in for the kill. It's also the result of me forcing myself to not use battalions, and to also not use Grimghasts.

The lack of heros is a bit intentional, and the ones that are there are entirely there because they are necessary; the Spirit Torment is there for the Chainghasts and Bladegeists, the Guardian is there for Cogs, and the harrow for teleporting around the battlefield. Nothing flashy, just functional. Ideally, I'll pull the GoS/spirit torment where needed, or drop them in.

Units are more interesting; Chainrasps are there to drop onto the enemy, and turn 1 charge them, so as to tie up their front lines. They will also pull double duty as meat shields and objective Holders. Myrmourn are there to be a dagger in the back of any hard hitters without rend. Ideally, they will drop behind a Chainrasp horde front line, wait a turn and dispel to get the extra attack, and than go for the charge with the ST and God nearby. Ideally, that is. I doubt the stars will align that well, so 24 Banshees it is. The Bladegeists will more of front line Brawlers, going in with the ST to get re-rolls to all hits. The spirit hosts are for last second objective nabbing or charge lane blocking. Chainghasts pull triple duty as being a swiss knife; they help relieve the stress on the ST, help pick off support characters like casters, or deal with hordes that pop out of nowhere. Its still an untested list, but I think it is something unique.

 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt

Leaders
Spirit Torment (120)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern(140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
- Infernal Lantern (Artefact): Wychlight Lantern
Dreadblade Harrow (100)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts 

Battleline
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
3 x Spirit Hosts (120)

Units
4 x Chainghasts (160)
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 156

[AoS 2 - Legion of Night Discussion]

So here's a list I've been pondering over, thinking if this might not be a bad idea. Basically, the idea is to use the Zombies as a vice press, deep striking them in and using the Vampire Lord on Dragon to fly in and crush the enemy where needed. The Coven Throne should be there for buffs, but it could possibly replaced with more heros, or possibly a unit of Morghasts for heavier swings that come in from later on. Dire Wolves are there for early game pressure, raising them from Gravesites when my VLoZD swoops in to help tie up flanks. Also, the Corpse Carts are there for a bit of support and magical buffing.

 

Allegiance: Legion of Night
Mortal Realm: Shyish
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)
- General
- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice
- Trait: Unholy Impetus 
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Coven Throne (260)
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Vampire Lord (140)
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
60 x Zombies (320)
60 x Zombies (320)
10 x Dire Wolves (120)
1 x Corpse Cart (80)
1 x Corpse Cart (80)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1930 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 188

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Well I own 30 bladegheists, and no harridans yet 😂

Don't sweat it man; Bladegheists are still pretty freaking good. 

 

Now, here's a question though: Can we run our battalions in LoG? Because if so, wouldn't that mean we'd get the rules like WoT or Shroudguards buff in addition?